Curse

the_jos · Jun 17, 2009, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

..... go to the Master of Damage and test your DPS over a minute. ....

Don't use the Master of Damage to compare the damage of frontliners to the damage of nukers.

As nuker you want to deal as much damage as possible on a balled group.
Hence tank&spank.
As (non-tanking) warrior, assassin or dervish you don't want such a large group hitting you. And since your target dies actual DPS is lower because of switching targets and restarting the chain on the assassin.

Let's assume your team can aggro 30 foes with a tank and you start nuking them at 30 damage/second each. That would mean that you are outputting 900damage/second, something a non-tanking warrior or assassin can't since he can't handle 30 foes at once.

If you are facing a small number of foes there is no reason to nuke. You are far better of with some kind of single target spike build.
When facing large numbers of foes an ele nuker can still do some serious damage, though the armor ignoring damage from CoP and RoJ gives the elementalist a disadvantage when looking at the numbers.

I've played my share of HM and in my opinion there are a relatively small number of places where tank&spank is the preferred type of play.
In most other places you still want someone (or something) to soak damage but the number of foes don't require pure tank&spank. In those situations I prefer having an elementalist who's able to disable the opposing foes instead of one dishing out raw damage to a limited number of foes. If I want raw damage I take an SS necro, specially on HM.

Quote:

Hence Mesmers have reason to be discontent as well. But note that in HM Mesmers using Mesmer skills will still usually deal more damage than an Elementalist using Elementalist skills. HM affects professions in different ways but I don't think you understand the magnitude with which HM affects Elementalists and damage.

PS: I don't think hexes last half duration in HM

Hexes last full duration in HM except when removed (slightly more chance in HM) or cast on a Prophecies boss.

I've played mesmer for a long time and damage output should be seen in the nuking vs targeted perspective. Targeted a mesmer can do some serious damage, but compared to nuking several foes it's small damage. Also remember stuff dies and most mesmer skills have downtime. With some of the recent changes the mesmer has somewhat more possibilities in HM than before, but I'm not playing the class for damage output.
I prefer to play the class to make life easier for my team. Remove nasty hexes, disable specific foes and that kind of stuff. I've had comments from players who asked: "You only play mesmer, why is stuff so much harder without you?"

sonofthort · Jun 17, 2009, 04:03 PM // 16:03

You guys have to admit that changing elemental lord the way I suggested would be incredibly easy for anet and would open up tons of possibilitys for ele's in HM when it comes to actually being able to do dps. I don't think ele's should have to use 3 pve only skills to get their damage to a decent level in hm, and I don't think they should be forced to use mesmer skills or run support builds. Obviously the point of elemental lord and intensity is to increase their damage, but it doesn't really do so effectively, while there are obviously tons of problems in gw, this fixes at least one of them in a simple way.

ajc2123 · Jun 17, 2009, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofthort

You guys have to admit that changing elemental lord the way I suggested would be incredibly easy for anet and would open up tons of possibilitys for ele's in HM when it comes to actually being able to do dps. I don't think ele's should have to use 3 pve only skills to get their damage to a decent level in hm, and I don't think they should be forced to use mesmer skills or run support builds. Obviously the point of elemental lord and intensity is to increase their damage, but it doesn't really do so effectively, while there are obviously tons of problems in gw, this fixes at least one of them in a simple way.

No I don't have to admit it XD

BASICALLY because Elementalists without That campaign will be left out and it doesn't fix your so called 'underpowered' Ele problem. Only for people with that campaign. See my other post.

sonofthort · Jun 17, 2009, 04:18 PM // 16:18

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Originally Posted by ajc2123

No I don't have to admit it XD

BASICALLY because Elementalists without That campaign will be left out and it doesn't fix your so called 'underpowered' Ele problem. Only for people with that campaign. See my other post.

I don't think leaving ppl out who don't have all campaigns is a problem. There are several skills only available in certain campaigns that will give your class a clear edge. If anything, the ppl who don't have the campaigns will be leaving themselves out, and you can find bundle packages for really cheap these days.

EDIT: That is the whole idea behind companys releasing expansions anyways, there needs to be incentive for ppl to actually by them.

ajc2123 · Jun 17, 2009, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofthort

I don't think leaving ppl out who don't have all campaigns is a problem. There are several skills only available in certain campaigns that will give your class a clear edge. If anything, the ppl who don't have the campaigns will be leaving themselves out, and you can find bundle packages for really cheap these days.

Of course people with only certain campaigns will be at a disadvantage.

This is my problem with your suggestion.

You are saying, that Elementalists are underpowered in HM even with all of the campaigns. This means its a Core problem everywhere regardless of their skill sets.

To make an Overall class not underpowered, you need to make a CORE change to fix the problem. Otherwise it doesn't completely solve the problem of an underpowered class. You are taking a shortcut approach assuming everyone has every campaign.

There are people with only x y campaign/expansion and missing out on A and B campaigns/expansion. The low cost of campaigns doesn't justify not giving attention to the class as a whole.

I think the big incentive to buying campaigns from a PvE point of view, and im sure many people will agree, is the content, not the ability to be underpowered anymore.

tmakinen · Jun 17, 2009, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Ajc, your reasoning is getting challenged by Critical Agility. Critical Agility doesn't appear impressed.

sonofthort · Jun 17, 2009, 04:44 PM // 16:44

I'm simply trying to find an easy way to address the problem, I figure most ppl that care about the problem in the first place are gonna have all the campaigns, at least factions, but I doubt anet will be making any fundamental changes to HM. Perhaps a core skill can be buffed for pve instead of intensity or elemental lord, I would exclude elites because that would force eles to use only one elite, but honeslty I don't think needing factions to have a chance as an ele nuker in hm is a problem, sins need eye of the north to have a chance at running a perma build (unless with cons), monks need factions I believe to have a chance at being a smiter (RoJ), and just about every class needs factions to have a chance at doing any really aoe nuking damage in pve (cry of pain).

ajc2123 · Jun 17, 2009, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Ajc, your reasoning is getting challenged by Critical Agility. Critical Agility doesn't appear impressed.

eh? Sorry I'm a bit tired atm, can you expand.

And as for Smiters needing RoJ to be able to smite, theres a flaw with that. Monk's are monks and are always going to be wanted. Their healing/prot FAR makes up for their inability to smite without RoJ (Which you can still do btw) The class is wanted and far from underpowered without RoJ, but you are saying Eles are underpowered no matter what.

tmakinen · Jun 17, 2009, 04:47 PM // 16:47

PvE assassins who don't own NF are at a huge disadvantage. For them it's perma or bust, since Critical Agility (a sunspear skill) is a critical part of practically all other builds. (And sins who don't have even EotN are just dead weight.)

ajc2123 · Jun 17, 2009, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

PvE assassins who don't own NF are at a huge disadvantage. For them it's perma or bust, since Critical Agility (a sunspear skill) is a critical part of practically all other builds.

Ah I see what you mean.

See this is why I'm against his particular argument. Anet shouldn't make half-assed (sry for the language) attempt to make a class more appealing for gameplay to classes. Even though it helped the class, it didn't solve the problem. Just as you said, without NF its perma or bust. They should have changed some Factions skills or the way assassins work instead of forcing them to buy NF to be effective.

Any more changes to buff classes should be made to core skills, or their specific campaign (A and Rt get factions changes, P and D get NF changes)

If they made Critical Agility the Luxon/Kurz rank, and the other skill the NF one, then I wouldn't have a problem with this and see it as a good change, since Assassins NEED Factions to be an assassin.

sonofthort · Jun 17, 2009, 04:58 PM // 16:58

I'm simply being realistic. GW1 is an old game, the developers are busy working on GW2, and advanced changes like the ones you suggest are likely to never happen, although they would be nice. The arguement that ppl who don't have all campaigns are being left out is just the nature of the mmo world. WoW ppl can't get to lvl 80 if they don't have the latest expansion, just an example. I think we need to focus on simple ways to fix some of the problems than complete overhaul.

ajc2123 · Jun 17, 2009, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofthort

I'm simply being realistic. GW1 is an old game, the developers are busy working on GW2, and advanced changes like the ones you suggest are likely to never happen, although they would be nice. The arguement that ppl who don't have all campaigns are being left out is just the nature of the mmo world. WoW ppl can't get to lvl 80 if they don't have the latest expansion, just an example. I think we need to focus on simple ways to fix some of the problems than complete overhaul.

And im simply trying to be fair. In my post a couple...um...posts ago I explained why you should do X and I even suggested a couple skills to be changed without even touching How the Elementalist works. The Conjure spells or attunement spells could add + % armor penetration (conjure would affect spells with armor penetration regardless of weapon type, the + weapon damage would not be affected) that would achieve the same thing as your suggestion, but making ALL elementalists able to do it.

And GW isn't WoW, Thats all I have to say about that.

this little quote is so you dont have to go look for what I said previously

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

If you REALLY REALLY need to suggest a buff to a class as a whole, you either need to

A) Choose a CORE skill to change/mess around with. If the character is campaign specific then choose that campaigns skill, not a GWEN skill for a Dervish or a NF skill for an assassin. Preferably NOT elite skills.

or

B) Change the way the class works as a whole, meaning its primary attribute, armor levels, etc etc.

Granted A is much easier then B though.

So to buff Elementalist you need to look it its core skills. Unfortunatly they have very few Energy storage Core skills, the ideal place to put a 'buff this class' skill since almost every single Ele uses Energy storage. All you have is Aura of restoration, Elemental Attunement (Elite) or Glyph of lesser energy.

You can't change Glyph of Lesser energy, its a nice balanced skill, Aura is already buffed. Elemental Attune you can add armor penetration or something, but, its an elite skill and forces you to drop other elites in favor of it.

Option A is looking harder and harder isnt it

Then you can look at the elementalist Core skills as a whole and look for something that the majority of Ele's can put in their bars without forcing them to waste too many points in one attribute.

What I notice most is Conjure Frost/fire/lightning. I can see something such as adding SPELL armor penetration damage in addiction to + attack damage, there for boosting each attributes power effectively. The con, No Conjure earth, however Earth is more of a defensive line anyways.

This so far looks like the best option for me.

Or you could add + armor penetration to the Attunements. Even earth will get a + damage then.

HOWEVER this is all considering 1) Eles need the buff and 2) PvE ONLY changes.

Granted I don't think They need to be changed, but if you want to buff a class as a whole for PvE, you need to look at their Core skills so no Ele is left behind.

My 2 cents

aoeclald · Jun 17, 2009, 05:27 PM // 17:27

In regards to those who are saying that there are few options in PvE for what to run in order to play in teams, that is because this game is Build Wars, not Guild Wars. Whatever build wins gets the prize, because unlike other games, Guild Wars was creative and made a closed skill bar. It is this function of the game which dominates it, gives it a strategic edge, and leads to imbalance and balance.

However, you don't need to do what everyone else does to win Build Wars -- that's only if you want to get in the top 100 rank ladder. There are tons of options you can play at your leisure and still surprisingly do well. It is true that certain skills clearly outshine others, but that doesn't mean that the others can't be used. Through trial and tribulation, you could even find the next metaway because everyone else was off running RoJ and didn't happen to look at the effectiveness of Balthazar's Pendulum, for example.

In terms of Elementalists, I've already stated that we do enough damage as it is. Referring to a Wiki discussion page, this used to be THE best damage spell in the game. Why is this? Because it can be spammed, because it doesn't cause scatter, and because compared to other AoE damage skills, Searing Flames was one of the best. Even without armor-penetration, I assume you are all looking at elementalists from a solo standpoint. With 4 or 5 Searing Flames elementalists, you are doing 60-80 damage (multiplied by the amount of eles you have) every two seconds with this single spell, not to mention the huge degeneration caused by burning. In fact, it is a force to be reckoned with by RoJ, but as mentioned, RoJ only wins because it is a) holy damage and b) armor-ignoring. Also not to mention, Mo/Me's can fit CRY OF PAIN on their bar allowing them to dish out more armor-ignoring, AoE damage from only 3 spells (assuming you have a mesmer hex to make benefit of Cry of Pain).

Which brings us back to the first point - Build Wars. With 8 skills, flexibility at peak performance is key, and currently RoJ wins because at 3 skills, it can still fit hybrid support and healing from the Healing Prayers, Divine Favor, or Protection Prayers tree. Elementalists could also bring Mind Wrack and Cry of Pain to up their damage, but doing so will bring their bar to look somewhat like this:

12 Fire Magic - Searing Flames, Glowing Gaze, Fire Attunement
11 Energy Storage - Aura of Restoration
6 Illusion Magic - Mind Wrack
N/A - Cry of Pain

What monks can do with 3 spells at no energy deficiency, an elementalist would need 6 in order to keep up energy and deal significant amounts of damage. Plus, as an E/Me, they get hardly any support other than the fact they get small bursts of self heals. Not much they can add in for the other 2 spells that a Mo/Me could.

Mouse at Large · Jun 17, 2009, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Aura of Restoration - keep core functionality and add 2.5% AP for every point in ES for elemental spells i.e. not non-ele spells

Make it PvE only.

ajc2123 · Jun 17, 2009, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

Aura of Restoration - keep core functionality and add 2.5% AP for every point in ES for elemental spells i.e. not non-ele spells

Make it PvE only.

See a change like this is acceptable in my mind if they HAD to make one.

ALL eles can carry it no matter the campaign.

Tenebrae · Jun 17, 2009, 05:42 PM // 17:42

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

The more I think about it, the more likely you aren't.

The more i read you here , the more i think you dont even think.

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

Give an example of a boss that can kill you in one hit when you're a Ranger.

The more i read you here , the more i see that you dont even read. I said "as a W" and then said that was the second char i created.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You keep saying there are other options. Well then, can you name them?

Of Playing P not being imbagon ? of playing W without D-Slash+SY ? playing mesmers without CoP ? and other things you put in "?" including rangers ?. Saying the gimmick builds is not saying the BEST option ALWAYS on 100% of the game for that prof . Holy christ and you are the one calling me "not competent" ? please save that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Of course I know what options are available to an Elementalist.

Woah sorry then but i got the impression that it wasnt like that , just because you really think that Elementalist should be buffed just because you cant 3 nuke anything to death

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

That's not the point though.

Shame for you , it is.

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

By all means. Why don't you suggest something to balance HM?

By the way yes I'd think that's a fair change. After all, Rits are pretty much the weakest PvE class right now.

I would ; like i said , i would reduce armor gain per lvl on 22+ foes but thats not the point , the point of the thread is boost the entire class or skills or something so they ( and ONLY THEY ) can do more damage on HM because eles are ONE OF THE FEW profs that HM pisses off most and is "not fair".

"Balance" all , or "balance" none , not just ele nukes ( because i assume that dont want 1500% of healing on Aura of Restoration, Water hexes lasting 3x times , and Air magic to have 40% pen and so on .... ) because "i want to be the mambo king again" . Im happy you agree with Rit stuff but was mainly a joke , i wont ever agree just to boost all ele nukes and rit stuff for the sake of it

sonofthort · Jun 17, 2009, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

And im simply trying to be fair. In my post a couple...um...posts ago I explained why you should do X and I even suggested a couple skills to be changed without even touching How the Elementalist works. The Conjure spells or attunement spells could add + % armor penetration (conjure would affect spells with armor penetration regardless of weapon type, the + weapon damage would not be affected) that would achieve the same thing as your suggestion, but making ALL elementalists able to do it.

And GW isn't WoW, Thats all I have to say about that.

this little quote is so you dont have to go look for what I said previously

Ok, I see where you are going with this. Aura of restoration would be a great skill to buff, as it is already great for heals and energy, maybe too good. I don't really like the idea of buffing conjure spells, since it forces eles to put a skill on there bar they would otherwise not have, I think the best solution would be the attunements, seems to fit the name of the spell also. Imo I wouldn't want there to be a progressing armor penetration for each rank in x elemental attribute, as it would create an expodential effect of spells becoming more powerful at higher ranks. Keep the current duration as the variable, keep the energy return, but add something like 25% armor penetration.

Axel Zinfandel · Jun 17, 2009, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Frankly, I think a lot of people are mistaking 'buff nuking' to 'completely change the meta and make PvE even more mind-numbingly easy.'

But what's the worst that would happen if one skill like that (intensity, I'm still looking at you) were buffed? Nukers hardly would reign in HM over Cryway for the fact that it is more useful and dependable. I don't think it would shift the meta, it would just open up a new opportunity for eles besides support and healing.)

-no one- wants eles to just PEWPEW through HM, but I would like to see nuking a bit better then worthless. It's not like we're saying that support/healing builds must be nerfed and nuking revived, hell no (although ER infusers need to die)

Jeydra · Jun 17, 2009, 10:31 PM // 22:31

@the_jos - I'll agree that there are situations when Elementalist damage is attractive compared to physical. 30 enemies at a time is one such example. That's not to say physicals can't compare though. You CAN tank 30 enemies if you've got good Monks (Seed of Life, Prot Spirit + Spirit Bond, Shield of Absorption), and then the enemies will blow up quickly. Death Blossom for example will total 80++ AoE damage every two seconds, and then there's Splinter Weapon, Mark of Pain + Hundred Blades + Whirlwind Attack, etc.

As for the Mesmer example, well the point is that the fastest PvE method is to simply overload the healing with damage. You run up to them, spam your DPS and kill them. Diversion, Power Block, Shame, Guilt etc are cute and all, but ideally you bull's charge through. If you can deal a hundred DPS consistently while also having a 40% chance to KD, why bother with anything else?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

You are saying, that Elementalists are underpowered in HM even with all of the campaigns. This means its a Core problem everywhere regardless of their skill sets.

To make an Overall class not underpowered, you need to make a CORE change to fix the problem. Otherwise it doesn't completely solve the problem of an underpowered class. You are taking a shortcut approach assuming everyone has every campaign.

The problem with that is, unless you make lots of PvE / PvP skill splits, changing core skills will also cause PvP ripples. It is undoubtedly a dangerous change. I'm not convinced this is a good idea.

PS: It's Hamstring, not Cripslash.

@Tenebrae -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

The more i read you here , the more i see that you dont even read. I said "as a W" and then said that was the second char i created.

I misread. Name a boss that can kill you in one nuke when you're playing a Warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Of Playing P not being imbagon ? of playing W without D-Slash+SY ? playing mesmers without CoP ? and other things you put in "?" including rangers ?. Saying the gimmick builds is not saying the BEST option ALWAYS on 100% of the game for that prof . Holy christ and you are the one calling me "not competent" ? please save that.

NAME SOMETHING. You've not given any particular build. You've listed what are commonly thought of as the most effective Paragon, Warrior, Mesmer builds, but not named "an option".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Shame for you , it is.

And the point is that Elementalists shouldn't be able to deal damage, yeah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

I would ; like i said , i would reduce armor gain per lvl on 22+ foes but thats not the point , the point of the thread is boost the entire class or skills or something so they ( and ONLY THEY ) can do more damage on HM because eles are ONE OF THE FEW profs that HM pisses off most and is "not fair".

"Balance" all , or "balance" none , not just ele nukes ( because i assume that dont want 1500% of healing on Aura of Restoration, Water hexes lasting 3x times , and Air magic to have 40% pen and so on .... ) because "i want to be the mambo king again" . Im happy you agree with Rit stuff but was mainly a joke , i wont ever agree just to boost all ele nukes and rit stuff for the sake of it

One of the few professions? Don't be ridiculous. Lots of professions can't deal damage in HM. Elementalist is one of them. Rits are even worse off. Dervs are outclassed by Assassins and Warriors. Paragons have only one build and it's not for damage. Monks are beaten by E/Mo healers. At top level there's no reason to play for Mesmer damage, or Ranger damage. The damage difference between a buffed physical and everyone else is just THAT large.

Personally I would rather nerfs to physicals than buffs to Elementalists, except of course that's not going to happen. Lots of the PvE community cried bloody murder at the Ursan nerf. What do you think will happen if Izzy nerfed For Great Justice, Strength of Honor, Asuran Scan, and so on? When was the last time there was a PvE-inspired nerf anyway? Shadow Form and Ursan in recent memory, anything else?

sonofthort · Jun 17, 2009, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Personally I would rather nerfs to physicals than buffs to Elementalists, except of course that's not going to happen. Lots of the PvE community cried bloody murder at the Ursan nerf. What do you think will happen if Izzy nerfed For Great Justice, Strength of Honor, Asuran Scan, and so on? When was the last time there was a PvE-inspired nerf anyway? Shadow Form and Ursan in recent memory, anything else?

Shadow form and ursan needed nerfs cus they were way overpowered and completely ignored 99% of the games skills for a few that were over powered. Ursan replaced a persons whole bar, it completely ruined the idea of actually using real skills in pve, and killed creativity and intelligence. The modern physical way ideas ppl are coming up with are a great thing imo, they were good ideas and require good team syncing to pull off, exactly how guilds wars was ment to challenge ppl. I don't think nerfing them is a good idea because atleast ppl are finding creative things to do with these physical classes. I don't realy think they are creating a problem in terms of ruining the economy quite like shadow form or even 600/smite, they are just effective builds that ppl have fun running. The problem is that there are a list of other classes which are not fun because they are clearly underpowered at doing what they are meant to do. Simply buffing the classes that are underpowered would be a great way to fix things, and like the elementalist example of this thread, a simple change to one skill could be enough.