Curse

sonofthort · Jun 17, 2009, 05:41 AM // 05:41

You hear it all over, Ele's are underpowered in HM because their spells are not armor ignoring and monsters in HM have extra high armor, which causes groups to rely on other classes for nuking. I would like to hear some suggestions as to how ele's could be buffed to bring them back into the mainstream. Here's my idea:

Elemental Lord
Energy:5 Casting Time: 1/4 second Recharge: 10 seconds
Enchantment Spell. For 40...56 seconds, damage from your elemental spells has 25% armor penetration. Each time you cast a spell, you gain 0...1 energy and are healed for 200...440% of the spell's Energy cost.

Notice I removed the elemental attributes +1, changed the wierd 1 energy for every 10 ranks of energy storage, and buffed the healing to match aura of restorations, as well as the recharge time.

fenix · Jun 17, 2009, 05:49 AM // 05:49

No, NOT +1.

Moved

Squishy ftw · Jun 17, 2009, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Eles are just fine to be used in HM. Just don't use them thinking you'll blow up everything but use them more as party support.

Faure · Jun 17, 2009, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Imo buffing of a class should not be done with pve only skills, especially not with only 1 skill that is relying on 1 campaign and a (Allegiance based) title.

Axel Zinfandel · Jun 17, 2009, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Change Intensity, Elemental Lord is fine now.

but YES YES YES on the armor penetration. I'm glad the idea has at least picked up a bit

25% may not even be enough to bring back nuking, but I'm not even going to do the math right now, but it does bring even more possibilities for HM. Load em up on cracked armor and nuke nuke nuke

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faure

Imo buffing of a class should not be done with pve only skills, especially not with only 1 skill that is relying on 1 campaign and a (Allegiance based) title.

It's the simplest way to make to make nuking more viable in HM. The skills don't need to be split (PvE/PvP split) to cause more damage, else it will make enemies insanely hard.

Armor penetration also makes it so that nuking isn't even more of a joke in NM, but a lot more effective in HM, where enemy's armor is buffed sky high.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squishy ftw

Eles are just fine to be used in HM. Just don't use them thinking you'll blow up everything but use them more as party support.

For a class with around/more then 50% of their ENTIRE skills focused on dealing damage, I think it's safe to say that ele nuking DOES need to be made more viable for HM usage. If, say, warriors were reduced to support/tanking in endgame/HM, I bet tons of people would complain like hell.

sonofthort · Jun 17, 2009, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faure

Imo buffing of a class should not be done with pve only skills, especially not with only 1 skill that is relying on 1 campaign and a (Allegiance based) title.

Idea being that instead of buffing every single ele skill for PvE why not just one skill that buffs them all, one that replaces a skill which most ele's have on their bar anyways. Maybe Elemental Lord can act more like an Attunement spell for all the elements, because attunements are almost always on every ele bar.

Also, somebody mentioned intensity. I supposed my idea could be applyied to intensity instead, I feel that both of these skills need a buff.

aoeclald · Jun 17, 2009, 06:36 AM // 06:36

If it weren't for current PvE metas right now, we'd be back to SF ele ways. Eles are not one of the most underpowered classes in the game and as it stands, they could be one of the most powerful if they weren't outshined by cryway for elite missions.

Not to mention, seeing something explode on Hard Mode isn't really the point of Hard Mode. Things are meant to be more difficult, therefore killing them will be just as such. My PvE elementalist uses the Mind Blast, Immolate, GLowing Gaze for a small amount of damage, but continuous pressure. I don't see big numbers, but I do see dead opponents, therefore I am happy.

Lastly, PvE skills have been buffed and buffed and buffed while PvP continues to get nerfed, nerfed, and nerfed. The last thing we need right now is another PvE buff.

Jeydra · Jun 17, 2009, 06:46 AM // 06:46

I don't think this matters. Even with 25% armor penetration Elementalist damage isn't going to be viable because of the fantastic DPS a buffed physical can churn out. It's better than nothing but not going to cure the root of the problem.

I see two options:

1. Allow Elementalist damage to become superbuffed as well (i.e. more skills like Intensity and "By Ural's Hammer", especially if they can be run on off-characters - think heroes maintaining SoH and spamming Orders).
2. Nerf everything else - Warrior's Endurance, Asuran Scan, For Great Justice, Strength of Honor, Critical Agility, and so on.

PS: For this particular change I'd say make the armor penetration stack with the penetration from Air Magic as well.

sonofthort · Jun 17, 2009, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by aoeclald

If it weren't for current PvE metas right now, we'd be back to SF ele ways. Eles are not one of the most underpowered classes in the game and as it stands, they could be one of the most powerful if they weren't outshined by cryway for elite missions.

Not to mention, seeing something explode on Hard Mode isn't really the point of Hard Mode. Things are meant to be more difficult, therefore killing them will be just as such. My PvE elementalist uses the Mind Blast, Immolate, GLowing Gaze for a small amount of damage, but continuous pressure. I don't see big numbers, but I do see dead opponents, therefore I am happy.

Lastly, PvE skills have been buffed and buffed and buffed while PvP continues to get nerfed, nerfed, and nerfed. The last thing we need right now is another PvE buff.

My thinking here is that instead of nerfing everything which is overpowered like roj and cry of pain, why not just buff what is underpowered? And you had a good point before your edit, RoJ syncs well with RoJ, lol.

Axel Zinfandel · Jun 17, 2009, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by aoeclald

If it weren't for current PvE metas right now, we'd be back to SF ele ways. Eles are not one of the most underpowered classes in the game and as it stands, they could be one of the most powerful if they weren't outshined by cryway for elite missions.

Not to mention, seeing something explode on Hard Mode isn't really the point of Hard Mode. Things are meant to be more difficult, therefore killing them will be just as such. My PvE elementalist uses the Mind Blast, Immolate, GLowing Gaze for a small amount of damage, but continuous pressure. I don't see big numbers, but I do see dead opponents, therefore I am happy.

Lastly, PvE skills have been buffed and buffed and buffed while PvP continues to get nerfed, nerfed, and nerfed. The last thing we need right now is another PvE buff.

The only reason people use RoJway/Cryway is -because- nuking is retardedly underpowered in HM, and those skills ignore the armor that makes nuking worthless.

If nuking was somehow buffed like that, Roj/Cryway wouldn't be Meta anymore, but it would still be very good for Mesmers who want to deal damage, and Monks who... well... I susspect RoJ's scatter will be corrected soon anyway, so...

EDIT: also, I think if nuking were to ever get a buff like this, they have to fix ER. Put a clause on it that makes it only for ele skills. Ele's REALLY don't need to be insane powerhealers, to the point where it knocks monks completely out of the game. If nuking were to be buffed and ER left alone, Ele's will no doubt be the most overpowered class out there, along with sins. They'd be damage dealers, healers, support...

sonofthort · Jun 17, 2009, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Monks who... well... I susspect RoJ's scatter will be corrected soon anyway, so...

Side note: I hope if RoJ gets nerfed it is not the monster ai, I would rather it go back to its original function, but with a better recharge time. It was something like "Target foe and all adjacent foes take 120 holy damage and animated undead are set on fire for 5 seconds", this could be better if recharge was less than 30 seconds.

bungusmaximus · Jun 17, 2009, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

For a class with around/more then 50% of their ENTIRE skills focused on dealing damage, I think it's safe to say that ele nuking DOES need to be made more viable for HM usage. If, say, warriors were reduced to support/tanking in endgame/HM, I bet tons of people would complain like hell.

Blindbot
Water snare
Ether renewal healers
Ether prism healers
Wards

Hell when I just started playing I was creative, when I found out my ele skills didn't do damage I rolled a curses bar on my ele :P. If you need your class buffed to beat HM pve, im sry, but then your style needs some work.

sonofthort · Jun 17, 2009, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Blindbot
Water snare
Ether renewal healers
Ether prism healers
Wards

Hell when I just started playing I was creative, when I found out my ele skills didn't do damage I rolled a curses bar on my ele :P. If you need your class buffed to beat HM pve, im sry, but then your style needs some work.

You just pointed out that ele's are forced to do support builds instead of damage in hard mode, now ask yourself, did you create your ele so you could run support builds? If so, you are quite unique. This is the reason ppl want a buff, not because they cannot beat HM.

bungusmaximus · Jun 17, 2009, 07:46 AM // 07:46

OK, fair enough, and ye, I enjoy support builds. If you're looking at overall game balance I can see where you're going a little better. And then I agree with you that fire damage doesn't even dent HM enemies.

This however requires rather an overhaul of HM then an overhaul of eles. Epic armor ratings aren't the only 'problem' in HM, double attack speed is another one. An SS necro or dom mesmer is extremely strong in HM, because monsters kill themselves fast through SS, empathy and whatnot.

HM isn't designed properly,it was more of a quicky fix. Just channge a couple of numbers and hocus-pocus, we got HM. Some classes get shafted, some extremely lucky. When u can roll SY or other imba crap, you're OK, when u got armor ignoring curse damage, you're OK.

It's been like that however since GW started, meh, especially people in PUGs always played cookie-cutters, LOL it took me a while after I found out rangers were useful fore other stuff then spamming Barrage :P.

In the end, be glad you're not a ritualist :P

the_jos · Jun 17, 2009, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofthort

I would like to hear some suggestions as to how ele's could be buffed to bring them back into the mainstream.

Sonofthort,

Would you be so kind to tell me what you mean by 'mainstream'?

sonofthort · Jun 17, 2009, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Sonofthort,

Would you be so kind to tell me what you mean by 'mainstream'?

What I mean is that ele's no longer are used for nuking/high damage output because of HM.

DeFFik · Jun 17, 2009, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Blindbot
Water snare
Ether renewal healers
Ether prism healers
Wards

^this

+ Churring Earth + other nice knockdowns and your party will love you, not so great damage but so much fun^^. Especially if you have other aoe or some melee characters in party.

but.... don't worry, someone in anet loves ele so who knows how they will buff him with the next update. Eles are getting stronger every month, IMO they're not underpowered, just players are used to high yellow numbers in NM and clicking 12345...

You can play with one build relying on 'Supaaa Domage!!!!!111oneoneone', but flexibility and various playstyles makes you a better player.

the_jos · Jun 17, 2009, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofthort

What I mean is that ele's no longer are used for nuking/high damage output because of HM.

It's the rise of certain other skills, specially in farming teams, that leads to this perception.
There are just better alternatives than ele nukers at the moment.
That has little to do with hardmode though the armor there causes some problems indeed.

However, when I look at pre-hardmode situations SS necro's were already used a lot in (farming) teams for their damage output.
It's just easier to coordinate a group of ele nukers than a couple of SS necro's who need to be sure to hex different targets.
Furtermore, the KD from MS helped a lot to keep the tank alive.

Nowadays the field changed. The most used tank is a perma who won't take damage anyway. This means MS doesn't need to be there to migrate some damage. Furthermore RoJ and CoP deal far more damage than an ele can put out. CoP has been in the game for a long time but people just ignored it since it is a mesmer skill and those suck in PvE. RoJ got interesting after the Ion-cannon change, but even before that it could be used to nuke. Still people preferred Ele nukers back then (partly for their MS and burning ability).

What you face here is that a large group of players noticed that eles don't have to be the primary nukers. Hell, I played Mesmer for over 3 years and outside tank&spank I was dishing out more damage than the average nuker. Just pick your targets with care. The same with my necro, 3.5 years old.
He fit in more farming builds than eles, from dual farming UW through Sorrows till DoA.
The elementalist has always been an usefull utility class for me, not a raw damage one.

Tenebrae · Jun 17, 2009, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofthort

You just pointed out that ele's are forced to do support builds instead of damage in hard mode, now ask yourself, did you create your ele so you could run support builds? If so, you are quite unique. This is the reason ppl want a buff, not because they cannot beat HM.

Now ask yourself . Did any Necro MM go to death magic just to see their minions die at 1 hit on HM ? did any Warrior make a warrior to die on 2 nukes ( even 1 ) on HM ? did any sin make that char to do only bonuses from skills on HM ? did any mesmer fill half of his/her bar with interrupts to be UNABLE to do that on HM ? did any1 create a ranger ..... (edit) well i hope you see my point too.

If what you say is true and with your ele you are able to beat HM by switching a little more to another role or changing element or whatever then why you need the buff ? . I guess its just because eles on HM are not the king of mambo anymore and they even have to think instead using Fire+Fire+Fire+Fire+e-management.

Is it true that pve skills are better for non-casters ? ..... pse maybe 60/40 but thats another topic.

tmakinen · Jun 17, 2009, 09:05 AM // 09:05

While I agree that it is overall beneficial to learn to play support on an ele, there should IMHO still be viable HM direct damage builds for those so inclined (the more options the better - heck, even monks can do that). I would leave Elemental Lord as it is now, and tweak Intensity instead:

Intensity 5e 1c 30r Enchantment Spell. For 15 seconds, your elemental spells have 15..25% armor penetration.

With recharge and duration as given above, it could be kept up about 75% of time when paired with Glyph of Swiftness and a +20% enchant weapon. Would entice people to buy both NF and EotN as well.