Curse

Desert Rose · Dec 11, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

I don't think that alone suggests Elementalists only deal medium damage. 100 spread damage to 60 armour class foes (plus Burning) every two seconds is not something all other classes can do unconditionally (or conditionally if they wanted).

I guess you mean [[Searing Flames], a few points to mention:
It's "only" every three seconds (recharge starts when the skill is either finished or interruped), and only two out of three casts actually deal damage (depends on the actual build). Also, is the mobs run around your damage gets even lower because you need more casts to set your foes on fire instead of dealing damage.

[[Searing Flames] looks great on paper, but is not that powerful in the actuall game.

cataphract · Dec 12, 2008, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

They never have the ability to do massive amounts of damage, not even in NM and especially not in HM due to the effect of armor.

I must be dyslexic then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Also, is the mobs run around your damage gets even lower because you need more casts to set your foes on fire instead of dealing damage.

[[Searing Flames] looks great on paper, but is not that powerful in the actuall game.

That's why eles use minion masters. Minions keep mobs occupied and balled up.

Oh and, Rodgort's Invocation helps.

The Meth · Dec 12, 2008, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

I guess you mean [[Searing Flames], a few points to mention:
It's "only" every three seconds (recharge starts when the skill is either finished or interruped), and only two out of three casts actually deal damage (depends on the actual build). Also, is the mobs run around your damage gets even lower because you need more casts to set your foes on fire instead of dealing damage.

[[Searing Flames] looks great on paper, but is not that powerful in the actuall game.

Anyone running SF is going to be running multiple eles with it. In NM 3 Eles with SF + mindbender + RI = around 550-600 AoE damage in nearby range in about 2 seconds, which is basically an instant kill. Its weaker in HM though with the monsters having higher health and a bit more armor, but in NM it is the very definition of a nuke. Except against warriors and rangers with high armor its basically the same as Cry of Pain with an AoE 1 size smaller and with far less recharge.

SirSporks · Dec 12, 2008, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Ele's are strong in numbers when it comes to HM. Just like a necro is strong when you have 3-4 of them in a party using different sources of damage for uber pain. Discord way uses practically 8 discord spamming necro's with different skills to support each other with heals, damage buffs, and hurt on the enemy. The ele is somewhat the same way. If you use different elements on 3-4 ele's, you have a massive pain dealing, snaring, massive KD, and harsh conditions coming from your group.

and assassins promise is a PvE powerhouse for an ele. i needz more meteor shower!!!

MegaVolti · Dec 12, 2008, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Anyone running SF is going to be running multiple eles with it. In NM 3 Eles with SF + mindbender + RI = around 550-600 AoE damage in nearby range in about 2 seconds, which is basically an instant kill. Its weaker in HM though with the monsters having higher health and a bit more armor, but in NM it is the very definition of a nuke. Except against warriors and rangers with high armor its basically the same as Cry of Pain with an AoE 1 size smaller and with far less recharge.

Yea right. 3 Elementalists dish out 600 AoE damage with SF. Oh boy ...

First, stuff has to burn. So only 2 of the 3 actually do damage. They will then do 250 dmg on paper. But even in normal mode you will face Warriors with 80 or more armor and Rangers with 100 or more armor. So in the end you will have an average of about 150 damage actually hitting the enemy. That's 75 damage per caster every 3 seconds.

An Assassin with [[Moebius Strike] and [[Death Blossom] can simply do better. Or a Necromancer with all their nuke skills. A Mesmer just spamming [[Clumsiness] and [[Wandering Eye] also does the same damage.

Mouse at Large · Dec 12, 2008, 07:11 PM // 19:11

I have said this before - there is a difference between adjacent and near or nearby in terms of the likely numbers of enemies affected by a skill/spell. It may not be significant in one cast/application, but over multiple casts/applications it will add up.

This becomes even more significant when you add in DoT, especially in Cataphract's ele/MM scenario.

Pocketmancer · Dec 13, 2008, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Looks like I've got a few responses to make. Note that I'm not denying any one of you being right. I'm just saying there's the possibility you've missed out on another outcome for the PvE experience.

----------

In response to Desert Rose, while yes, it looks great on paper, it works great in practice, too. Running 3 Searing Flames Elementalists is and will always be my strategy to steamrolling normal mode PvE. I've cleared all three campaigns and Eye of the North on about 5 different characters so far and those three Elementalists have only been swapped out at late campaign for Sabway.

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

That's why eles use minion masters. Minions keep mobs occupied and balled up.

Actually, you don't even need a minion master for those Elementalists in Normal Mode. The AI is stupid about spreading when struck with AoE attacks and just sit there eating flames in the face until they drop. Hard mode is a different story of course, and a single air conditioner Elementalist would be my pick of choice any day over three Searing Flames for Hard Mode.

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

An Assassin with [[Moebius Strike] and [[Death Blossom] can simply do better. Or a Necromancer with all their nuke skills. A Mesmer just spamming [[Clumsiness] and [[Wandering Eye] also does the same damage.

See this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

Searing Flames: Elite, no requirement to use, attacks nearby foes, inflicts burning, casting range
Death Blossom: Normal, requires attack from Off-Hand, attacks adjacent foes, inflicts... no conditions, melee.

MegaVolti · Dec 13, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Yes the SF range is bigger then the one [[Death Blossom] has. But Mesmers offer the same range (and with CoP an even bigger one). Without using the elite slot. And the Assassin does considerably more damage (same AoE damage, but armor ignoring and additional single target damage).

SF is a good spell, don't get me wrong. It certainly will kill everything in NM and even in HM it is doing quite well. After all, PvE isn't that hard.
However, it just isn't as powerful as people claim. It is far from the best nuke available. Not to mention the whole EotN campaign where it is completely useless in a lot of areas.

The Meth · Dec 13, 2008, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Yea right. 3 Elementalists dish out 600 AoE damage with SF. Oh boy ...

First, stuff has to burn. So only 2 of the 3 actually do damage. They will then do 250 dmg on paper. But even in normal mode you will face Warriors with 80 or more armor and Rangers with 100 or more armor. So in the end you will have an average of about 150 damage actually hitting the enemy. That's 75 damage per caster every 3 seconds.

An Assassin with [[Moebius Strike] and [[Death Blossom] can simply do better. Or a Necromancer with all their nuke skills. A Mesmer just spamming [[Clumsiness] and [[Wandering Eye] also does the same damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Except against warriors and rangers with high armor its basically the same as Cry of Pain with an AoE 1 size smaller and with far less recharge.

Obviously the figure is only correct for caster class armor. And even against ranger armor of 100 the combo of RI + SF does 110 damage (Yes, the eles _can_ use their other 7 skill slots to do damage too!). So it might take 3 eles 5 seconds to wipe out the back line and 10 seconds more to wipe out the high armors (this is assuming those warriors weren't hit with the prior wave of spells of course). Death Blossom sucks cause you have to restart every enemy, most of the time you might get the 80 AoE damage out once (and the AoE is pathetically small anyway) before the target is dead and you have to run to another and start over again. When you take into account the larger AoE and the fact that its ranged fire nuking is better then DB for all but the highest HM areas. Not to mention the utility the ele can provide that Assassin's lack. Now if assassin's had some cool PvE teleport that was spammable so they could change targets quickly that would help them a ton, but as it is now their need to run to targets slows them down alot.

For your other suggestions, unfortunately you can't spam those mesmer skills, so thats right out. What nuke skills do necromancers have again?

Of course, this all goes flying out the door if you include PvE skills.

MegaVolti · Dec 13, 2008, 05:06 AM // 05:06

[[Clumsiness] + [[Wandering Eye] + [[Cry of Pain]
Each on itself not spammable, in combination you can cast once every 3 seconds. With 100 armor ignoring damage and free interrupts. One adjacent, one nearby and one in the area, so the range is comparable to SF.
Necromancers have [[Rising Bile], [[Putrid Bile] and [[Putrid Explosion]. Yes, you have to spike a single target for that. But Necros can do that very well

All nearby or in the area range.
And the possibilities for crazy damage with [[Mark of Pain] (in a coordinated team) ...
As for the Assassin: Even if you have to start the attack chain for every single enemy you will still get the AoE once every 4 seconds. Not that big of a loss. And don't forget about the awesome (in NM at least) single target damage ...

Yes, if you assume that your SF only hits AL60 targets then it is awesome. If you assume it only hits AL0 targets then its even more awesome and better then any armor ignoring spell. Duh.
But that's simply not the case. Most enemies, even in NM, have >60 armor. 3 Elementalists simply can't dish out 600 damage within 3 seconds as was claimed above. More like 150 damage in 3 seconds. Which is totally fine in NM, stuff will die. It's just not the awsome uber pwnage that people sometimes believe it to be.

The Meth · Dec 13, 2008, 03:15 PM // 15:15

As I said, I wasn't including PvE skills. CoP does lots of damage? O rly?

The necro skills you listed don't really work. Rising bile takes too long to be effective, Putrid bile is quite decent but too long recharge and doesn't damage an enemy straight off, and putrid explosion is nice but requires a kill first. I agree with you on mark of pain, though the damage relies on your allies actions.

As I said above, my main draw with assassin's is the need to run to targets. I've played a DB assassin with good HM groups and you really only are responsible for the first kill you make, you don't have time to run to another enemy and then start comboing. I wont argue that DB can put out larger DPS but in most realistic situation it's not going to be as good, especially with the smaller AoE. This is true NM or HM, but your experience may differ depending on what kind of group you are in.

No way 3 eles would do under 150 damage. Unless you are fighting destroyer's or enemies with over 140 armor that just wont happen. Even against 100 armor the eles will be able to keep up about 300 damage, but most enemies will have 70 or less armor in NM. That's low enough. That lets each ele do about 190-200ish nearby damage in 2 quick spells and it's able to keep up that rate continuously. Fire spells are definitely at the top or very near the top for NM nuking (excluding PvE skills and special areas with fire resistance).

Noone ever said 3 eles had to be your ONLY damage, you can very well have a necro or physicals take down the warriors and rangers while ele's do their job on everything they kill well. Or if you are unimaginative just take 6 eles, you will still power through things fast. Notice that the damage from necromancers doesn't stack like ele's, if you brought 6 necro's your damage would be nowhere near 6x as much as a single necro. On the other hand, 6 eles = 6x as much damage, so just loading up on eles actually works vs loading up on necros, and with that many eles any target is going to die in 1 or 2 volleys. While Fire nuking is no longer nearly as good when in HM, its still effective enough if your ele's are also bringing support skills with them.

Pocketmancer · Dec 13, 2008, 07:04 PM // 19:04

By the looks of things, MegaVolti has not put 3 [[Searing Flames] Elementalists into practice to deliver an argument pertaining to them dealing only 150 damage every three seconds. Unless it's a very restrictive condition such as fighting 100+ armour enemies who happen to be strong against fire, like The Meth said, that's just beyond terrible as an assumption even. Put it into practice first before you preach against it.

And also by the looks of things, he has not even played a [[Death Blossom] Assassin either to say that their average DPS is higher than that of an Elementalist in Normal Mode PvE. While they can potentially do higher DPS, I've rarely ever had any enemies in Normal Mode live past 2 [[Death Blossom]s on my Assassin. The moment that enemy dies, the Assassin needs to change targets, start the combo all over again. Considering this case, Assassins have a far lower DPS than [[Searing Flames] Elementalists. Not to mention that [[Death Blossom]'s area of effect range is rather impotent in comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

On the other hand, 6 eles = 6x as much damage, so just loading up on eles actually works vs loading up on necros, and with that many eles any target is going to die in 1 or 2 volleys. While Fire nuking is no longer nearly as good when in HM, its still effective enough if your ele's are also bringing support skills with them.

Actually, I've tried this before. It doesn't fare as well as it seems like it would. The main reason is that what 6 Elementalists lack is simply the power energy management 6 Necros possess. Synergy between different Element lines are more difficult to produce, too. Either that or I'm missing some strange ingredient for Ele-way.

The Meth · Dec 13, 2008, 07:47 PM // 19:47

I've done a 4 SF ele vanquish before (2 human eles + 2 hero eles + 1 MM hero + 1 ranger with splinter tossed on by a rit) and things died fast enough. I was the ranger but none of the eles seemed to have troubles with energy, with us powering through mobs as fast as we could with little to no downtime in between. It probably helped a lot having the MM instead of another ele though, that blocked off enemies into a nice AoE-able area. The faster enemies die, the less energy you spend killing them, so you might try that in any fire magic based groups you run. Make sure you have GolE and glowing gaze, you will probably be low without those. It wasn't the absolute fastest HM clearing group you could make, but the speed wasn't nearly as bad as some people think fire magic is.

I have tried almost the same build with a DB spamming assassin and found that things died so fast that I felt worthless. Everything but the first enemy would already be dead by the time I was ready to use DB on them. Like I said, it makes nice numbers at the master of damage but in practice is worth much less.

Now, there are still much more effective builds that can be run on an ele. Ether Prodigy combo-ed with whatever spellcaster attribute you want along with PvE skill spammage is going to be better. But full out fire magic isn't bad at all as long as you aren't in a few select areas.

Pocketmancer · Dec 14, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Ah, that would explain things. I did 8 Elementalist straight out (with a friend who's also another Elementalist). Me and my heroes were Searing Flames (possessing all the proper energy management skills) while he was an infuser. His other elementalist heroes consisted of an Air Conditioner, Warder, and a Water Snarer. It's probably the Minion Master that we needed.

MegaVolti · Dec 14, 2008, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

[[Clumsiness] + [[Wandering Eye] + [[Cry of Pain]

There simply is no reason not to use PvE spells when talking about PvE

SF still is useless in most of EotN.
And the 80-100 armor targets are very common in PvE. I have tested the SF team myself and as I said, it is fun and all that. But there are ways to do more damage.

Omega Precept · Dec 21, 2008, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

No. Elementalists have the ability to do medium amounts of AoE damage...while still dealing medium amounts of damage (earth magic), which is a very good combination.
They never have the ability to do massive amounts of damage, not even in NM and especially not in HM due to the effect of armor.

Do you even have an ele? Have you ever even played as an ele? What the hell are you talking about? You should stop posting in this thread, or start giving direct examples of your misguided point of view.

And thank you Pocketmancer for taking your valuable time to explain (kindly) why Megavolti is wrong.

MegaVolti · Dec 22, 2008, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega Precept

Do you even have an ele? Have you ever even played as an ele? What the hell are you talking about? You should stop posting in this thread, or start giving direct examples of your misguided point of view.

And thank you Pocketmancer for taking your valuable time to explain (kindly) why Megavolti is wrong.

Can you even read? Just scroll up. There is a simple example (the Mesmer one) which will do more damage then the SF ele. Both in NM and in HM.
Any other build besides SF will even do far less damage for the Ele.

Elementalists do medium amounts of damage. It's simply a fact.
The only time you can get a little more then medium damage out of them is if you build your whole team build around it (lots and lots of SF). But for whole team builds there are simply so much better options then going mass SF. A good team build around a single [[Mark of Pain] will do more damage then 8 SF-Elementalists combined.

Trying to be a DD as Elementalists is just stupid. It works in NM, yes, because you can do anything in NM.
But why would you ever want to not take the awesome utility that earth or air give you in any serious area?

The Elementalist is the only class that does have awesome ultility while still dealing medium damage. It's great. The earth line totally rocks for HM. Trying to be a damage dealer (and failing at that) is just such a waste.

daze · Dec 22, 2008, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

They never have the ability to do massive amounts of damage, not even in NM and especially not in HM due to the effect of armor.

[fire [email protected]][[email protected]][glyph of sacrifice][meteor [email protected]][assassins [email protected]][liquid [email protected]][teinais [email protected]][searing [email protected]] > [clumsiness][wandering eye][cry of pain]
Unconditional Damage > Conditional damage

The damage from that alone completely wipes the floor with a single CoP mesmer. In Normal Mode naturally.

[earth [email protected]][[email protected]][churning [email protected]][unsteady [email protected]][[email protected]][enfeebling [email protected]][[email protected]][[email protected]] > [clumsiness][wandering eye][cry of pain]
when it comes to balancing damage with utility. In NM or HM.

In fact, other than CoP builds, who else can dish out as much AoE damage? Or what other professions as a whole are built towards applying tons of Area of Effect?

cataphract · Dec 22, 2008, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

Actually, you don't even need a minion master for those Elementalists in Normal Mode. The AI is stupid about spreading when struck with AoE attacks and just sit there eating flames in the face until they drop. Hard mode is a different story of course, and a single air conditioner Elementalist would be my pick of choice any day over three Searing Flames for Hard Mode.

I was talking about HM where minions are extremely useful for keeping mobs occupied.

As far as Searing Flames is concerned - I've ran 4 of 'em on a number of vanquishes, just for fun. Worked good. Self-healing monk bosses were a bit of pain, but a SF spike after 4 Meteor Showers got the job done. I was forced to manually click SF on my heroes because I didn't have any macros to do it.

MegaVolti · Dec 22, 2008, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

[fire [email protected]][[email protected]][glyph of sacrifice][meteor [email protected]][assassins [email protected]][liquid [email protected]][teinais [email protected]][searing [email protected]] > [clumsiness][wandering eye][cry of pain]
Unconditional Damage > Conditional damage

The damage from that alone completely wipes the floor with a single CoP mesmer. In Normal Mode naturally.

[earth [email protected]][[email protected]][churning [email protected]][unsteady [email protected]][[email protected]][enfeebling [email protected]][[email protected]][[email protected]] > [clumsiness][wandering eye][cry of pain]
when it comes to balancing damage with utility. In NM or HM.

In fact, other than CoP builds, who else can dish out as much AoE damage? Or what other professions as a whole are built towards applying tons of Area of Effect?

Right, 8 skills beat 3 skills

I really lilke earth magic. it's awesome, your build is great and offers great utility. It's really good for HM play. But it is not a damage build. That's what I was saying: Elementalists are no good as main DD, they are really good at providing utility while dishing out medium damage.

As for for 1st build: I really don't need to dig up some Mesmer AP build, do I? All caster-classes can do well with AP, the Elementalist is of cause ne exception there. Replace the fire spells with Mesmer direct damage and you will get more DPS, both NM and HM.

Oh and CoP-Mesmers are not good at DPS. CoP only offers like 8 DPS on its own. It still is a nice skill to bring but the bulk of damage comes from [[Wandering Eye] and [[Clumsiness] in my example above since they both have a shorter cooldown which can be greatly reduced with a 40/40-set.
Yes, the damage is conditional. But enemies in PvE always attack, even the casters. It always triggers (well, 95% of the time). The fact that it prodects the group in addition to the damage far outweights the small chance some monster might not auto-attack.