Curse

LemonLame · Dec 06, 2008, 02:02 PM // 14:02

I heard somewhere that Elementalists lose a lot of their power once they make the transition to Hard Mode. I'm still interested in playing an Elementalist, however if they're a joke in Hard Mode then I would reconsider. If they lack skills in Hard Mode, then that makes me question how they fare in PvP situations. Any insight on the subject would be greatly appreciated.

payne · Dec 06, 2008, 02:04 PM // 14:04

ele go from uber damage in NM > kinda meh damage

due to enemies getting pimped health and damage reduction (alot of damage reduction to ele damage)

just how it was done

they are viable for HM although the damage reduction makes them a bit meh compared to monk, war , ranger, nec?, para - well IMo anyway

Moloch Vein · Dec 06, 2008, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Nothing wrong with elementalists in PvP. PvP opponents rarely have thousands of hit points and 150 armor.

You can farm with an elementalist in HM. They're pretty good for that if you know how. However, as a "general" HM PvE class, they aren't optimal.

Make a necromancer. You could make a paragon but they are very much a one-trick pony in HM - necromancers are more versatile. You won't regret it.

Tyla · Dec 06, 2008, 02:28 PM // 14:28

You can always run an Earth Elementalist or an Ether Renewal X. By Ether Renewal X I mean there's quite a lot of variants possible to run. Water has like 3 useful skills, and two of them require no attribution.

They also excel at a lot of farming utilising Earth Magic, in both NM and HM.

In PvP Mesmers do it better. The only bars that are worth running are ones that don't have an open secondary, like the Shatterstone Elementalist for healing on splits.

Lord Of Blame · Dec 06, 2008, 02:45 PM // 14:45

My primary is an ele and would say that he pretty much sucks as a damage dealer in HM. In NM he is fine but when I do HM I always run a necro skill bar, works great. If you do run a ele skill bar in HM then you will probably be more of a support player with snares and wards. IMO earth magic is probably the best for running an ele skill bar in HM.

The only PVP I have messed with has been AB. They work fine for clearing shrines, snares, and blinding. I'm not sure how they fair in GvG or HA, but I'm sure they have their place there as well.

SurareVaera · Dec 06, 2008, 03:33 PM // 15:33

[Blinding Surge][Lightning Orb][Epidemic][Optional][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Ward Against Melee][Air Attunement][Optional]

Very effective build in HM, especially with a Spiteful Spirit hero with Reckless Haste, Price of Failure and Enfeebling Blood.

Optional slots can be Res Sig, Enervating Charge, or any imba PvE only skills like Pain Inverter or the Vanguard Wards.

If you're running with Kai Ying or Herta, you can even drop a ward and spec into Domination for Backfire and Diversion for areas with strong healers.

While Fire Ele damage skills lose some of their potency in HM (higher health, armor, greater AoE scatter), armor ignoring skills that take advantage of HM enemies' faster rate of attack, casting, and recharge become much more powerful. Skills like Spiteful Spirit, Reckless Haste, Price of Failure, Empathy, Backfire, Visions of Regret, etc. Death Nova is armor ignoring too and should always be on a hero minion master.

Raku Clayman · Dec 06, 2008, 04:32 PM // 16:32

I've had no problem doing missions in HM or Vanquishing, which I am doing now with H and H.

I do find it kind of funny that all my characters could be hitting a particular ranged enemy at the same time and that enemy manages to get off a hit on me, even though I am way back.

Rhamia Darigaz · Dec 06, 2008, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by LemonLame

If they lack skills in Hard Mode, then that makes me question how they fare in PvP situations.

hard mode has nothing to do with pvp.

Chthon · Dec 06, 2008, 10:51 PM // 22:51

1. Like Moloch said, the main problem for eles in HM is the fact that HM monsters have insane armor (among other things) in lieu of better builds or better AI. That's not a problem you run across in PvP.
2. So what do you do with an ele in HM?
- Doing adequate damage is pretty much out of the question... at least with the native ele skills.
  - You can try to run CoP, probably with GoR, but you're going to have a lot of trouble topping a Me/A build like this one.
  - Other than that, you can try to leverage the armor-ignoring damage on EBSofHonor by kicking out a whole lot of damage packets using a couple AoEDoT spells recharged rapidly by AP. This is something I'm working on right now ([build][Assassin's Promise][Eruption][Churning Earth][Finish Him][GOLE][Ward Against Melee][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor][Mindbender][/build] is the current test build.)
- Ether Renewal gives you nearly infinite energy, but it turns out that there's really very few worthwhile options to spend it on -- GW contains very few otherwise-good skills that are limited by their energy cost. (Note to Izzy: That's a good reason to stop nerfing e-management skills so damned hard and to revert soul reaping.)
  - The monk's "big prot" is the best place to look for spells that can make good use of all that energy. [build][Protective Spirit][Spirit Bond][Infuse Health][Shield Guardian][Great Dwarf Weapon][Glyph of Swiftness][Ether Renewal][Aura of Restoration][/build] is a damned good build. Heck, even the comparatively-gimped hero variant is downright awesome. But, it just doesn't feel at all like you're playing an elementalist.
    
    (Ensign prefers BotGD to Shield Guardian; I disagree.)
  - Protective Bond is always out there taunting me, making me wish it could be used. E. Renewal comes very close to being able to sustain it, but I've yet to achieve a build that can maintain without fail it through harder areas.
- Many people like to run variants the sort of blindbot and snare bars that are popular in PvP as PvE builds, but both pale in comparison to the Me/E build shown here. If it's possible at all, making an ele "utility" build compete with that is going to require a similar serious rethinking around PvE-only skills.
- Beyond the above, I don't really see any first-rate options for eles in HM. We've got a skillset largely focused around doing armor-sensitive damage in an environment where armor-sensitive damage is largely useless. That pushes us into trying to center builds around what used to be peripheral areas of the skillset, areas that are often outshown by other classes and/or PvE-only skills.
  
  Of course, you can always settle for being second-rate and still get the job done. As the unwashed masses say, "I hurd disco-way iz gud!!!!"

Rick Thene · Dec 07, 2008, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Earth and Air excel in HM (Water is fine to, but you don't need to spec for it to be useful, as was said.). AoE blind, knockdown and wards are all pretty awesome, while Air Eles can blind, apply cracked armour and even daze with Thunderclap. Throw in Enfeebling Blood and you're ready to go.

Don't use Eles for damage in HM, use them for support and you won't be disappointed.

MegaVolti · Dec 07, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by payne

ele go from uber damage in NM > kinda meh damage

due to enemies getting pimped health and damage reduction (alot of damage reduction to ele damage)

just how it was done

they are viable for HM although the damage reduction makes them a bit meh compared to monk, war , ranger, nec?, para - well IMo anyway

No. Elementalists go vom kinda meh damage in NM kinda less then meh damage in HM. Even in NM they are inferior as DDs to Assassins, Necromancers or Mesmers. Elementalists never have "uber damage", except maybe against plants when playing a fire build in NM

But if you play the earth or air line you will get awesome utility for your party and some free meh damage on top of that. Just keep in mind that the damage is a nice side-effect (which other support chars often can not offer) and not the main focus of the Elementalist.

Pocketmancer · Dec 07, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

No. Elementalists go vom kinda meh damage in NM kinda less then meh damage in HM. Even in NM they are inferior as DDs to Assassins, Necromancers or Mesmers. Elementalists never have "uber damage", except maybe against plants when playing a fire build in NM

Not true. Elementalists are considered one of the more desired classes in PvE Normal Mode simply for their raw power. Assassins are oneshot-one-target wonders from the frontline while Necromancers and Mesmers can only deal decent amounts of damage depending on the situation at hand. Elementalists require very little for dealing direct damage and often at times, require nothing but energy. Evidence of this raw power in normal mode? 3x Searing Flames Elementalists can nearly steamroll through 90% of Normal PvE gameplay in a quick and efficient fashion.

However, 3x Searing Flames in Hard Mode is nowhere close to being as effective which is why people began the myth of Elementalists "sucking" along the damage line and that's simply because of elemental damage being affected by armour. This is because of a rather big oversight on ANet's part since Elementalists went from the nuker class to the utility class while Necromancers went from utility class to "nuker" class (Discordway being the case). It's a bit heart aching, really.

However, if you're to ask me, I'd say that nuking or direct damage was never the only strong point an Elementalist has. What that strong point is, is probably something you guys should look into for yourselves.

Enon · Dec 07, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

However, 3x Searing Flames in Hard Mode is nowhere close to being as effective...

Actually, you'll be surprised how well it works. I'm not saying it's better than Cryway or Discordway, not at all, but it still does what it should be doing: killing.

Pocketmancer · Dec 07, 2008, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Well, yeah, in that case, you're right about that. Killing definitely happens in Hard Mode for 3x Searing Flames. But anything living past nonstop blasts from Searing Flames is rare in general.

Zodiac Meteor · Dec 07, 2008, 10:26 PM // 22:26

[Protective [email protected]][Spirit [email protected]][Infuse [email protected]][Shield [email protected]][Great Dwarf [email protected]][Glyph of [email protected]][Ether [email protected]][Aura of [email protected]]

Can't go wrong with this.

MegaVolti · Dec 08, 2008, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

Not true. Elementalists are considered one of the more desired classes in PvE Normal Mode simply for their raw power. Assassins are oneshot-one-target wonders from the frontline while Necromancers and Mesmers can only deal decent amounts of damage depending on the situation at hand. Elementalists require very little for dealing direct damage and often at times, require nothing but energy. Evidence of this raw power in normal mode? 3x Searing Flames Elementalists can nearly steamroll through 90% of Normal PvE gameplay in a quick and efficient fashion.

Not true.
Yes, the "raw power" of Elementalists is enough to kill stuff in NM. But so is a Warrior's auto-attack.
Yes, 3 Elementalists using [[Searing Flames] can steamroll through 90% of NM quickly. But so can 3 Assassins with [[Death Blossom]. And the Assassins will most likely be faster.

Elementalists damage dealing capabilities in normal mode are more then enough to kill anything, so the discussion is kind of pointless. It's only NM after all. Still, they are not the class dealing the most damage.

The Meth · Dec 08, 2008, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Death blossom assassin's are really overrated. The might make big numbers on the master of damage but when you get in a real pve fight you have to switch targets every 5 seconds and will only get to use DB maybe once per enemy. Its good if you are the kind of player that likes to put all enemies on a tank character and AoE em to death, but then so is everything else.

Eles can still do respectable direct damage in HM, most casters will top out at around 75ish armor so things like SF still work fine, but if you want the 100% best build you will want something like what Zodiac posted. Ele infusers are f**king awesome, and shield guardian kicks ass.The ele can pretty much heal and protect the whole party better then 2 monks because of the infinite energy.

placebo overdose · Dec 08, 2008, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

[Protective [email protected]][Spirit [email protected]][Infuse [email protected]][Shield [email protected]][Great Dwarf [email protected]][Glyph of [email protected]][Ether [email protected]][Aura of [email protected]]

Can't go wrong with this.

side note why are those stats all over the place?

Pocketmancer · Dec 08, 2008, 07:02 AM // 07:02

...is there any point in arguing really about Assassin versus Elementalist for AoE?

Searing Flames: Elite, no requirement to use, attacks nearby foes, inflicts burning, casting range
Death Blossom: Normal, requires attack from Off-Hand, attacks adjacent foes, inflicts... no conditions, melee

Spare me. I'm not an Elementalist fanatic but I don't let blind passion drive facts into oblivion.

Pyra Fade · Dec 08, 2008, 08:16 AM // 08:16

[protective bond][air attunement][mindbender][ether renewal][glyph of swiftness][lightning hammer][lightning orb][blinding flash]

as stated before, Air is very viable in HM. 25% armor penetration, cracked armor, the only time i do <100 dmg per spell is against a heavily fortified warrior or ranger (who i will blind anyways and finish mopping up the casters). otherwise, i do ~140 dmg per spell on recharge with 1 sec cast times, in HM.

also previously stated, is the limitless energy of ER. with this build, casting anything actually results in a net gain of energy. even Lightning Hammer. It was stated that there is no real way to use all that energy. What about prot bond? while still serving as an airmentalist. I always bond myself, and find that I am extremely sturdy for an ele, but i can bond the monk, another ele, as many as i feel i can handle.

This is dmg and support and incredible self-defense without worrying about mob-scatter from AoE, and without worrying about your party kiting enemy AoE and thus leaving your ward.

spamming the lightning spells may not be the best form of dmg, but it is viable for HM with H/H.

i also believe (as stated before) that alot of this community opinion that eles are no good in HM comes from the fact that eles are raw dmg power. nukers. they must overcome armor, enchantments, stances, wards, whatever else, to deal thier dmg. necros, mesmers, sins, all have several ways (armor ignoring dmg, enchant removal, ect) to circumvent those methods of dmg reduction that are so plentiful in HM.

that by no means tells us that eles are a poor choice for HM. every class has it ups and downs, every class has a billion strategies and methods of exploiting its strengths

8 eles could roll HM FoW just as well as 8 wars
all it takes is the ingenuity and skill of the human element, which is what GW is all about

saying eles are inadequate for HM is admitting you lack the skill and creativity to make use of GW's most provocatively dressed class.

ps. this is all roughly the idea Pocketmancer was trying to get across. hopefully this filled any gaps in his very valid point that i wholeheartedly agree with.