Curse

Moloch Vein · Jul 06, 2009, 09:57 PM // 21:57

In an attempt to create an E build that would function as a E primary version of my normal N/A build for physical augmentation, I came up with this build. My apologies if this has already been done, I guess it has, but it works pretty fine and I'm currently using this as my general E PvE build.

Energy Storage 12+1+1
Curses 12

Glyph of Renewal
Mark of Pain
Barbs
Reckless Haste
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
Technobabble
Summon Ice Imp
Glyph of Lesser Energy

Usage:

This build obviously has a fair bit worse energy management than the N/A version. It won't be as resilient in a drawn out fight. However, it works fairly alright for most situations.

Glyph of Renewal is precast. It's used on Mark of Pain and EVAS, and possibly Techno. GoLE is used on Reckless Haste and the rest of the spells. Note that GoR can be used to pump out three EVAS in fast succession if you want to leave yourself on recharge. You won't be able to sustain insane numbers of assassins anyway, so this is likely your best bet.

Ice Imp is included as a cheap-cost additional ally with a snare spell. This is pretty strong with this type of build. But the PvE skills can be switched, of course. Air of Superiority is good to improve energy management.

This build is, obviously, a lot weaker than many other functions that can be performed better on an E than on any other character, most notably ER prot/GDW. This isn't in dispute.

Not much more to add. I wanted a build to use my favorite spells on my E. Here it is.

Bristlebane · Jul 06, 2009, 11:02 PM // 23:02

At least try put in some elemental skills in it somewhere, as of now it's just a rune-less necro without any soul reaping. A lot of people are gonna nag on you for that, and I'm saying that in the nicest possible way ;-)

ajc2123 · Jul 07, 2009, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bristlebane

At least try put in some elemental skills in it somewhere, as of now it's just a rune-less necro without any soul reaping. A lot of people are gonna nag on you for that, and I'm saying that in the nicest possible way ;-)

This ^^^

Soul reaping is energy management.

High pools of energy isn't.

Granted it will work, but it could be better as an N.

_Nihilist_ · Jul 07, 2009, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Good job, Moloch.

Everyone else, apparently you don't understand that you are in the Elementalist subforum, looking at a build meant to allow and Elementalist to be able to support a party in the same way as a N/A MoP+Barbs buffer. Moloch has given both the pros and cons of this build, but you still just flap your lips as if you didn't read anything other than the attribute spread and skills listed.

ES @ 14 is going to give the Elementalist an additional 42e. Yeah, it's overkill since extra energy isn't energy management, but what does GoLE do @ 14 ES? Let's see... reduces the cost of your next 2 spells by 17e... yeah... paying 5e to cast up to 34e (practically, 25e, since there is nothing higher than 15e on the bar...) worth of spells... how is that not e-mgmt?

Ice Imp for snares... again... a one-time cost during which time the little bugger is going to cast (at bare minimum) Ice Spikes (a 15e spell) 3 times as long as you keep him alive. Hmmm... so you pay 10e for 45e worth of spells, and auto-attacks... yeah, no e-mgmt here, either. (end /sarcasm)

It's suggested that Glyph of Renewal be used to insta-recharge MoP or EVAS, whichever the user feels is more appropriate/needed. All the information needed is here, but so far, the only thing that's happened is that a couple posters had to be smartasses.

And since I'm on a roll here, Moloch was such a douchebag that not only did he make a suggestion at a build that has no e-mgmt, that only does a half-ass job at a MoP caller when compared to a N/A, but he didn't give any additional info on how the build works, or what skills to combo, or what skills you could substitute, either. You asshole! Oh, wait... he did all of that... e-mgmt, suggested usage, possible substitutions, explanation of why it's not going to do as well as a N/A but reasonings for making this an E/N build...

Again, good job Moloch. Thanks for taking time to think this out, write this out, and share. Hopefully more of the members here will take this build for what it's meant to be, and won't be so goddamned negative out the gate.

ajc2123 · Jul 07, 2009, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

Good job, Moloch.

Everyone else, apparently you don't understand that you are in the Elementalist subforum, looking at a build meant to allow and Elementalist to be able to support a party in the same way as a N/A MoP+Barbs buffer. Moloch has given both the pros and cons of this build, but you still just flap your lips as if you didn't read anything other than the attribute spread and skills listed.

ES @ 14 is going to give the Elementalist an additional 42e. Yeah, it's overkill since extra energy isn't energy management, but what does GoLE do @ 14 ES? Let's see... reduces the cost of your next 2 spells by 17e... yeah... paying 5e to cast up to 34e (practically, 25e, since there is nothing higher than 15e on the bar...) worth of spells... how is that not e-mgmt?

Ice Imp for snares... again... a one-time cost during which time the little bugger is going to cast (at bare minimum) Ice Spikes (a 15e spell) 3 times as long as you keep him alive. Hmmm... so you pay 10e for 45e worth of spells, and auto-attacks... yeah, no e-mgmt here, either. (end /sarcasm)

It's suggested that Glyph of Renewal be used to insta-recharge MoP or EVAS, whichever the user feels is more appropriate/needed. All the information needed is here, but so far, the only thing that's happened is that a couple posters had to be smartasses.

And since I'm on a roll here, Moloch was such a douchebag that not only did he make a suggestion at a build that has no e-mgmt, that only does a half-ass job at a MoP caller when compared to a N/A, but he didn't give any additional info on how the build works, or what skills to combo, or what skills you could substitute, either. You asshole! Oh, wait... he did all of that... e-mgmt, suggested usage, possible substitutions, explanation of why it's not going to do as well as a N/A but reasonings for making this an E/N build...

Again, good job Moloch. Thanks for taking time to think this out, write this out, and share. Hopefully more of the members here will take this build for what it's meant to be, and won't be so goddamned negative out the gate.

I've read and reread. All your doing is supporting subpar when you could have par. I never said it wouldn't work, but like I already said N does it way better, specially with damage from runes.

Glyph of lesser energy is horrible e-management compared to inherent energy gain not requiring a skill.

Ice imp's job is better of done by yourself. Deep freeze. I wouldn't leave snares in the hands of an npc.

Glyph of renewal is a good idea, but a N can still use it without loosing anything, or even better, AP.

I never insulted him personally or said it was a terribad build, so I don't know why your getting all Anal about it.

Chthon · Jul 07, 2009, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

All your doing is supporting subpar when you could have par.

Yeah, but that's kinda the problem with the entire ele class right now. Hard Mode armor creep ruined the ele qua ele. Now we're left with the ER healer, and, well, nothing else. Moloch's at least working on getting something worthwhile for the class.

Moloch Vein · Jul 07, 2009, 03:24 AM // 03:24

The worst part of the build is losing Rigor. You can't really sustain two 20r spells that might have to be used on several targets in succession with GoR. So basically come blocking you're out.

The only advantage this build has (or an N/E version of the same which admittedly is stronger) over N/A is the ability to pop out two or three initial assassins. However if you pop three you're left with no hex on the called target, and that's bad.

maxxfury · Jul 07, 2009, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Ofc its not as good as the original! thats just <3

but the whole deal is giving the elem some damage dealing capability! thats not gonna get shafted by its usual Armour level issues!

And with COP effectively gone from this option. Its left to MoP to try and fill this gap! . (tho imo Mop nukers were better for general play than cop anyhow)

Air of superiority could fit well in there somewere as a baby AP, which imo is a bigger hit to the build than the loss of soul reaping! but then i like AP far too much, and miss almsot any bar without it :P

fights never last long enough in my Exp when played right to matter! especially as the Elem has the 'buffer' of more energy to handle it.

Tho in a sustained situation it could be pushing it a little.

I almost put "good effort!" then thought that it sounded a little condiscending then decided to anyway! hoping its taken as its meant!

**sidenote:** would love to see a Mes primary version :P

Jeydra · Jul 07, 2009, 06:46 AM // 06:46

I gave the build a try, doing today's ZQ with it. Mobs encountered: Spiders, Raptors, Similians and Ceteradons.

I think it's clearly inferior to E/A Caller. You have no spike potential. Barbs is inferior to Lightning Orb - Lightning Orb, plus the two shouts, can kill a target at once; Barbs takes time. Mark of Pain is great if the enemy balls up; it's quite bad if they don't. Technobabble gives Dazed, which is cute and all but might as well power through with straight out damage (+ Rend Enchants). The Ice Imp is decent. Vanguard Assassin is always good, but you can't get as many Assassins as you can with E/A caller. Your energy dies after a while; GoLE isn't enough. And you can't run from mob to mob as easily as E/A caller can, you need to wait for spells + energy to regen.

If mobs don't die for whatever reason, this would be a superior build to pressure through and get a kill, but that doesn't happen nearly enough for me to recommend it.

_Nihilist_ · Jul 07, 2009, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Again, read the reason that Moloch posted using this build:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

In an attempt to create an E build that would function as a E primary version of my normal N/A build for physical augmentation, I came up with this build.

He's already stated that he understands the drawbacks:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

This build obviously has a fair bit worse energy management than the N/A version. It won't be as resilient in a drawn out fight. However, it works fairly alright for most situations. ... This build is, obviously, a lot weaker than many other functions that can be performed better on an E than on any other character, most notably ER prot/GDW. This isn't in dispute.

Not much more to add. I wanted a build to use my favorite spells on my E. Here it is.

So quit saying that he's losing out by not using a N/A... he's SAID this already...

FFS, reading comprehension, dear God...

ajc2123 · Jul 08, 2009, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Just because I didn't mention something in my post doesn't mean I didn't understand it. It's missing Some of the powerful PvE skills that give the caller its .....power. While he said they could be switched, he failed to mention which ones. Only one suggestion.

But if you wanna try and make the best out of subpar (despite eles having a greater use) then....

Ebon vanguard assassin support
You move like a dwarf!
Necrosis (non elite easier to manage discord? If your going /N this is pretty much tops)
Barbs
Reckless haste or Enfeebling blood
Ether prism
Deep Freeze
Optional.

I left out MoP because imo MoP and Barbs do not synergize well at all. You either want target to live long enough to have MoP kill (or almost kill) adjacent foes, or you want the target to go down fast enough where you can move on. As a caller, you are most likely doing something like discordway, where single targets are taken out fast.

You move like a dwarf provides a condition for necrosis, and a cheap ranged knockdown. Staple in most builds. Ebon assassins in there for now but is probably better to switch out for Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom. to buff yourself AND teammates.

Ether prism is because these are fast recharging spells, no need for glyph of renewal, and its a lot better energy management than Glyph of lesser energy, with some protection added in. Otherwise I would just use a curses elite.

Deep freeze for snare.

Optional for your choice.

Difference between the two builds? More damage, same class, more utilities.

maxxfury · Jul 08, 2009, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

I left out MoP

you dropped the skill the entire build is designed around? thats like taking Cop from a cop nuker, totally changes the reason for the build..

Quote:

Difference between the two builds? More damage, same class, more utilities.

Yes MOLOCH's does more damage and has aoe daze as well as the snares and % to miss yours does, same amount of utility.

Quote:

As a caller, you are most likely doing something like discordway

Its a MOP caller, for calling the target for Phys to attack to blow the group up :/ NOT a disco caller....HUGE difference.

I think you totally missed the point in this thread and build

Xenomortis · Jul 08, 2009, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

Just because I didn't mention something in my post doesn't mean I didn't understand it. It's missing Some of the powerful PvE skills that give the caller its .....power. While he said they could be switched, he failed to mention which ones. Only one suggestion.

But if you wanna try and make the best out of subpar (despite eles having a greater use) then....

Ebon vanguard assassin support
You move like a dwarf!
Necrosis (non elite easier to manage discord? If your going /N this is pretty much tops)
Barbs
Reckless haste or Enfeebling blood
Ether prism
Deep Freeze
Optional.

I left out MoP because imo MoP and Barbs do not synergize well at all. You either want target to live long enough to have MoP kill (or almost kill) adjacent foes, or you want the target to go down fast enough where you can move on. As a caller, you are most likely doing something like discordway, where single targets are taken out fast.

Ok...
I 've bolded what basically shows a lack of understanding in MoP builds.
Mark of Pain is not used with Discord teams generally. A discord caller can bring Mark of Pain, but that's another issue.
A MoP caller is run with physical teams that do not bring Discord.

The power of a MoP caller does not come from the PvE skills, it comes from 3 synergising necro skills that are constantly recharged by a fourth skill (Assassin's Promise). Three of the remaining skills are PvE skills simply because they're the most powerful and the ones chosen have strong synergy or effects. If there were no PvE skills, the N/A MoP caller would still be very strong.

You have it the wrong way too - you don't leave out MoP for Barbs. If you really must lose one, get rid of Barbs in such builds.

Now, with regards to the E/N variant:

It is clear that it has very few advantages over the N/A standard whilst having some big downsides. These are things Moloch admits. Moloch wasn't aiming to beat the N/A standard with this, or even match it; he was instead aiming to just make such a thing viable.

I think it's a mistake to not bring Air of Superiority though. I'd look at losing Technobabble for it - the possible energy gain or skill recharges are very useful when they come up.

Jeydra · Jul 08, 2009, 02:39 PM // 14:39

A lack of understanding with the build could explain why my run left me negative impressions.

Basic question is this: if you're running physicalway of some kind, and you are with H/H, then if you Mark someone (or put Barbs) and call him as a target, the H/H focus and take him down. Once he goes down, you'll have to wait 20s before you can Mark someone else. Obviously the idea case is to Mark someone and call someone else for the H/H while some physical hits the target with Mark as long as possible, but you're an Elementalist. Spear the target? Sounds pretty stupid. Vanguard Assassin? I usually open with Vanguard Assassin to soak damage. Should I Mark a target, then Glyph of Renewal, then Vanguarad Assassin, while calling someone else for H/H to focus?

Xenomortis · Jul 08, 2009, 04:19 PM // 16:19

I'd use GoR on MoP, simply to get two marks; one after the other with no delay. If you only used GoR on MoP, you'll effectively reduce the recharge to 10 seconds.

When H/Hing with my necro normally, I just have everyone attack my target (2 paras usually and my MM has a spear). I throw my spear when I'm not casting.

Malician · Jul 09, 2009, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

A lack of understanding with the build could explain why my run left me negative impressions.

Basic question is this: if you're running physicalway of some kind, and you are with H/H, then if you Mark someone (or put Barbs) and call him as a target, the H/H focus and take him down. Once he goes down, you'll have to wait 20s before you can Mark someone else. Obviously the idea case is to Mark someone and call someone else for the H/H while some physical hits the target with Mark as long as possible, but you're an Elementalist. Spear the target? Sounds pretty stupid. Vanguard Assassin? I usually open with Vanguard Assassin to soak damage. Should I Mark a target, then Glyph of Renewal, then Vanguarad Assassin, while calling someone else for H/H to focus?

Glyph of Renewal recharges Mark. The whole point of Mark is for a team of physicals to pound something, so as you noted, the spear/vanguard would be pretty junk on their own.

Malician · Jul 09, 2009, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Thanks; as an elementalist, I just went out and created my own Necro to run your MoP build. I haven't been using it much, though, because of another problem entirely:

A. most PUGs i've been in lately have few physicals.. what with the whole tank/nuker meta most people run casters

B. Nobody will actually hit the called target; they'll attack random other crap they think is the most dangerous. If they DO attack the right thing, MoP will often thrash targets nearby to the point people switch. I've seen the party wipe with the entire mob almost dead.

This could work well if you were playing with people you trust or H/H.

Me? I'm stuck with the E/R build on my ele, which is unbelievably effective. Everyone else can blow chunks; I just keep them alive until all the monsters are dead..

Any advice on using the MoP build with PUGs? It's hard to stop monking when it is so much more effective.

AtomicMew · Jul 09, 2009, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Mark of Pain is not used with Discord teams generally. A discord caller can bring Mark of Pain, but that's another issue.

That's so false I'm just going to have to TLDR the rest of your post. If anything, MoP caller is BETTER with discordway since you have anywhere from 2 to 4x as many minions. For physway, it's probably just as well to take multiple copies of SW since it's easier AND heroes can do it.

Anyway, yeah, might as well just roll a necro or play a role ele's are actually good at. I'm not saying this build isn't decent, but it's just not something I'd ever play.

It's like a warrior playing AP caller for discordway - it works, but it feels gimped and leaves a bad aftertaste.

Chthon · Jul 09, 2009, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

That's so false I'm just going to have to TLDR the rest of your post. If anything, MoP caller is BETTER with discordway...

Oh no... Let's not start this idiocy again. Discord has a terrible anti-synergy with MoP. MoP's damage is NOT directly related to the number of minions you have. It IS directly related to how may physical hits your team can land on the target before it dies. Any non-physical damage you do to the target is counterproductive. And what does discord do? It knocks 300 hp off the target without triggering MoP even once. (And then the caller is supposed to knock off another 180 with Finish Him, again not triggering MoP.) It doesn't matter how many minions you have if most of them never get a hit in because the target got killed with non-physical damage. Seriously, MoP+Discord is such a bad combination that you'd be better off disabling Discord and just letting the minions hack the target to death whenever you cast MoP.

AtomicMew · Jul 09, 2009, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Oh no... Let's not start this idiocy again. Discord has a terrible anti-synergy with MoP. MoP's damage is NOT directly related to the number of minions you have. It IS directly related to how may physical hits your team can land on the target before it dies. Any non-physical damage you do to the target is counterproductive. And what does discord do? It knocks 300 hp off the target without triggering MoP even once. (And then the caller is supposed to knock off another 180 with Finish Him, again not triggering MoP.) It doesn't matter how many minions you have if most of them never get a hit in because the target got killed with non-physical damage. Seriously, MoP+Discord is such a bad combination that you'd be better off disabling Discord and just letting the minions hack the target to death whenever you cast MoP.

.................................................. ...

Do you even listen to yourself?

The only "idiocy" here is that you don't realize you can control your heroes and what skills they use. If discord killing the target too fast is a problem for you, just disable it.

The fact is, minions have GREAT synergy with MoP. Discordway lets you take multiple MMs with negligible cost, (which is NOT the case for physway).

Yes, so let's not start this "idiocy" again. Your entire argument is countered by "just disable and manual discord when you need it." (Which, for the record, you don't even need to do because it hardly makes a difference in speed.)