Curse

MagmaRed · Jul 06, 2009, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

Whoever advised/okayed running 1 sup rune and 1 major rune either doesn't play hard mode, or goes through it very slowly.

I didn't recommend it, I simply stated that it is possible to do it, as I do. And yes, I do it in HM, and no, I do not do HM slowly. Health isn't an issue for me most of the time in PvE. But I have played for 4 years and spent thousands of hours playing. So I'm saying I can do so because I know how. I have done Guardian, Vanquisher, and all the Eye of the North titles (which require HM play to max) on my Ranger, Monk, and most of them on my Necro.

The important part isn't what you use, but how you use it. As long as you know how to manage aggro and set up a team build that synergizes, health loss from Superior runes isn't an issue. However, if you do NOT know how to manage aggro, understand how monsters react, or know how to set up a team, then the health loss WILL cause problems.

Which is why I suggested starting with minor runes until the OP learns more about how the game works and might become more comfortable with Major and/or Superior runes.

Jeydra · Jul 06, 2009, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Makes you think about that -75 health when the mobs damage increased dramatically but your damage has a pathetic increase of 6 damage at the cost of 75 health.

So long as you don't die, what does that 75 health matter?

Agree with MagmaRed above - this quote in particular is especially spot on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

The important part isn't what you use, but how you use it. As long as you know how to manage aggro and set up a team build that synergizes, health loss from Superior runes isn't an issue. However, if you do NOT know how to manage aggro, understand how monsters react, or know how to set up a team, then the health loss WILL cause problems.

Hugh Manatee · Jul 06, 2009, 09:11 AM // 09:11

It's like a warrior knowing when to frenzy, don't suck and you can do whatevr you damn well want...

maxxfury · Jul 06, 2009, 12:17 PM // 12:17

My thoughts are that :

1> you can normally in most areas run a superior rune
2> if you henchie an area they have 480, so anything above that is a bonus
3> BUT i dont see the point in a -75 rune UNLESS you hit a special breakpoint for something! example 10 minions @16 death.

Afterall do you need an extra couple of damage? to speed thing up by a matter of seconds throughout the whole zone? if at all?

Yay my spell did 3 more damage than yours! but...it didnt matter cos they died at the same time! in the same number of casts! as the extra 3 damage didnt do enough to make me have to cast more/less times due to the mobs hp.

AngeliqueSynner · Jul 06, 2009, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Superior runes are nothing to be scared of.
But I wouldn't reccommend it until you get a feel for the game.
Personally, I'd go with no higher than a major until you feel comfortable with your team setup. :3

Jenn · Jul 06, 2009, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

The important part isn't what you use, but how you use it. As long as you know how to manage aggro and set up a team build that synergizes, health loss from Superior runes isn't an issue. However, if you do NOT know how to manage aggro, understand how monsters react, or know how to set up a team, then the health loss WILL cause problems.

I don't disagree with that, and I too do HM with unruned heroes (which is about the equivalent health-wise of your heroes, probably), so it is possible. I'm not sure about you, but I do notice a difference in the hero's survivability, though, unless I'm completely willing to micromanage heroes.

That being said, I still wouldn't take someone on my team running around with 450hp in HM =P. Since you can't flag them and micro their bars, they probably will fail, haha. Their lowered HP makes a massive difference, and since I monk for a lot of people, I can tell when someone is running 450hp versus 600hp.

Winterclaw · Jul 06, 2009, 03:39 PM // 15:39

There's a question you need to ask before using a superior: do the extra points in an att. hit a breakpoint that would benefit me enough to lose that much max HP? If the answer is no or you aren't sure, then don't. If you can honestly answer yes, then run with it.

Moloch Vein · Jul 06, 2009, 10:26 PM // 22:26

There are no situations where using a superior rune on a general E PvE player bar is really worth it. Of course, that doesn't mean you can't run it anyway.

Most other classes have more diverse skills to take into account, but the E class is pretty one-dimensional when it comes to its own spell lines. You might advocate it on some Water builds, for example, to increase the snare duration, but most of them, well, the ones that matter, either don't scale at all, or don't scale from 14 to 16.

Kendel · Jul 07, 2009, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Meh, i'm really not sure anymore.

On Water you gain extra duration of hexes. On Air you gain extra duration of conditions. On Earth you gain extra duration of Wards. On Fire you gain a little increased damage.

With armour/level reduction you aren't getting much more damage from that sup rune, although the issue is whether or not you think the damage you gain over time is worth it. An extra 10 damage per spell after 10 spells adds up, even more so if its AoE or DoTAoE. In PvE its worth it imo. Its not like an ele can't use a full set of Vitae/Survivor to maximise their health and have a +health switch if you really care that much about your health.

Edit: Yes i'm guilty of having ~450hp. My age-old armour that i bought for my Prophecies Nec/Mes/Monk were all the energy gear with a 1 of each minor rune in tem. Leaving me at 455hp with the Sup Vig and Sup Rune. On my new first accounts Monk and finally my Eles new armour also i've gone back to the sensible option of full Survivor/Vitae, even if it does cost a little extra to create spare elite armour pieces. Brings you above 500hp without items which is plenty and the buffs to ELord/AoR mean you should be healing yourself slightly anyway to make up for it.

maxxfury · Jul 07, 2009, 04:50 AM // 04:50

I always wonder even with a sup for say 6 more damage per cast? as an example.

Will it kill faster anyway? now let my TRY to explain!

Say the average monster has 480hp, and your spell @14 does 96 damage, and your spell @ 16 does 100 damage! Im thinking the principle not an actual specific spell here

Does that matter?! both empty the hp bar at the same time with the same amount of casts. (ofc you can argue about heals from monks but they will end with about the same result of the same amount of casts and same energy used)

Did i put that across right? its 6am :P blaahh.

Jeydra · Jul 07, 2009, 06:51 AM // 06:51

@Illfated Fat - you should be willing to micro heroes. If you don't, it's the fault of the player, not the Superior runes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Will it kill faster anyway? now let my TRY to explain!

Say the average monster has 480hp, and your spell @14 does 96 damage, and your spell @ 16 does 100 damage! Im thinking the principle not an actual specific spell here

Does that matter?! both empty the hp bar at the same time with the same amount of casts. (ofc you can argue about heals from monks but they will end with about the same result of the same amount of casts and same energy used)

Searing Flames @ 14 Fire = 94 damage / cast.
Searing Flames @ 16 Fire = 106 damage / cast.
Difference = 12.
Assuming HM where monsters have an average of +40 armor vs. Fire (half damage), it's 47 vs. 53 for a difference of 6.
In an average fight, you might cast Searing Flames 10 times (pretty low estimate).
10 x 6 = 60 damage, or more than an extra cast of Searing Flames.

Having the Superior will make you kill faster.

Cebe · Jul 07, 2009, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Watermelon Tacos

Hello everyone! I just rolled an ele and I wanted to use Searing Flames as an elite but I wasn't sure how much fire magic is needed. Right now I have a fire magic head piece but I'm not sure if 2 extra fire magic is worth the -75 hp

Hope you super good players out there can help. Thanks in advance

There are two distinct arguments to the Superior Rune debate.

The first revolves around the fact that if you can manage a fight well, if you know the AI, and if you can react responsibly to any given set of in-battle challenges, you would be just as well using a Superior Rune as it "gets the job done faster".

The second argument asks the question "what do you gain for losing the additional HP?". Quite often it's only a few points of damage difference, in fact, there are no Fire Magic spells with an important breakpoint at 16 Fire Magic. In the case where the answer to the question posed is "just a few points of damage", then you need to consider the opportunity cost in more detail, and take your skills into consideration.

I'd never consider a few more points of damage to be worth the health loss from the upgrade in rune. There are definite benefits to having the additional health, including increased resilience versus Degen and the simple fact that you have more health "between you and death".

Both arguments are valid. I can't say I've never played with a Superior Rune before. I have...and I was fine, but then I didn't try to do anything that was going to put me in mortal peril, or fight foes I knew I couldn't handle.

In short, No. Searing Flames builds do not benefit from having a Superior Rune, other than those few points of additional damage, and frankly at the rate monsters die these days you're really not going to notice. If you really must increase your Attribute Count, there is always Glyph of Elemental Power, or Elemental Lord. I'd stick with the extra HP to keep that additional buffer between me and death, especially if I hadn't been playing long.

maxxfury · Jul 07, 2009, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Searing Flames @ 14 Fire = 94 damage / cast.
Searing Flames @ 16 Fire = 106 damage / cast.
Difference = 12.
Assuming HM where monsters have an average of +40 armor vs. Fire (half damage), it's 47 vs. 53 for a difference of 6.
In an average fight, you might cast Searing Flames 10 times (pretty low estimate).
10 x 6 = 60 damage, or more than an extra cast of Searing Flames.

Having the Superior will make you kill faster.

if you add the burning in too, you dont need the extra cast to kill the 480hp( that i used for the example in this instance) so not needing the extra cast. So it works out the same.

point 1: 6 damage doest make enough difference to me to loose the hp thanks, agree to disagree if you feel you need the 6 damage!

point2: 10 times seems a little much per group as you have to count the rest of your teams damage, and having to cast 10 times seems like it takes a long time to kill anything :S

point3: i cant justify a sup rune to myself for such a small boost of a few seconds i wont barely notice anyway . *shrugs

point4: thanks for crunching numbers!

*tested 14 vs 16 on the 100armour dummy and both took 6 casts (with Mark of rog to keep the burning) oh well...furthers my view that they arent enough to justify to my self! {yes it was a dummy

not a mob, but point still stands)

Jeydra · Jul 08, 2009, 02:42 PM // 14:42

It's a good point but it sounds rather like saying there's no difference between dealing 241 damage / hit and 479 damage a hit, since in both cases you'll be killing the 480-HP target in 2 hits ...

Kendel · Jul 08, 2009, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Saying it takes the same number of hits to kill them so theres no difference is pretty meaningless in itself. If every foe in the game had 60 AL, 480hp, and was a barrel so it didn't move you'd be correct. But they move in and out of range, they heal, they have much more varying armour/level reduction.

The other 3 elements i'd say its a no-brainer that a Sup Rune is much more beneficial since they increase the duration of hexes/conditions/wards on top of causing a little more damage.

Yes you can say 75 more hp can be the difference between life and death... but in reality thats also completely unrealistic. In Hells Precipice a Spark of the Titans will deal 261 damage vs 60 AL with a Rodgorts and 252 with mind Burn. Clearly having over 520hp is to avoid instant death, but even if your party got healed for ~120 a 3rd spell would kill you with or without the Sup rune because its damage is so high.

maxxfury · Jul 08, 2009, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Yah yah so i was been a little anal about no# of casts :P in a sterile situation :P

but it still shows the damage increase is so small, that you barely notice the increase in killing speed? i still cant justify takin the sup for a SF elem just to get a couple of points of damage increase.

As Kendel said increases in hex durations, ward duration for breakpoints ect for the other elements provided a much better reasoning to take a sup.

Improvavel · Jul 08, 2009, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It's a good point but it sounds rather like saying there's no difference between dealing 241 damage / hit and 479 damage a hit, since in both cases you'll be killing the 480-HP target in 2 hits ...

Except it isn't like that, is it?

The max difference at level 20 (with some exceptions due to weakness to fire) is 12 vs armor 60. Going up it will only reduce the damage difference - it is only 6 at armor 100 and will get lower and lower.

You can say it adds up - yes it does. But all the -75 hp also adds up. If 4 ppl in the party are running sup runes is -300hp in your party right there.

Elementalist damage is all RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up in HM as we know. Maybe they will be able to redo that,but that is another discussion all together.

Kendel · Jul 08, 2009, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

You can say it adds up - yes it does. But all the -75 hp also adds up. If 4 ppl in the party are running sup runes is -300hp in your party right there.

Wtf sort of logic is that. You don't gain any benefits from your party all having 600hp. You would gain benefits from 4 people all doing an extra 5-10 damage per hit, especially on larger AoE attacks. If your allies were all running with ~450 max hp and were constantly balling up to be hit by high damage AoEs then you might have problems, but its really not hard to be on 510+ even without items and to spread out a little so the Prot has an easier time. Skills in PvP don't hit for 250+, you can be killed with or without a sup rune by the same attack quite easily.

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 08, 2009, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Depends on what you run and where you run it, I cant say that extra ~10 damage is worthy of loosing 75hp for.

Omg Im A Mage · Jul 09, 2009, 12:18 AM // 00:18

My answer would be that the 75 HP is superior to the superior in almost all cases unless you have a specific team synergy where the extra damage/extended conditions are going to have a tangible and helpful affect.

So basically, 90% of the time the extra HP is gonna be worth it.