Curse

Chthon · Aug 24, 2010, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kymeric

My question is, does this matter much to a newcomer, or is it a distinction that only really gets to be a disappointment for seasoned players at endgame or in hardmode?

The former. Elementalist damage is fine until the foes start heading up over ~lvl 26 or so.

Perfected Shadow · Aug 26, 2010, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

Because they don't? Give me the choice for a party and I will take a monk any day, human or hero.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen

In my book a good monk is better than an ER any day of the week

Unfortunately your 'good' monk is not able to spam prots/infuse in addition to maintaining GDWs and Prot Bonds/SoHs or other enchants.

But that's ok, there are lots of players that share your monk = best backline mentality, so it means anet wouldn't be thinking about nerfing ER yet.

Vallen · Aug 26, 2010, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

Unfortunately your 'good' monk is not able to spam prots/infuse in addition to maintaining GDWs and Prot Bonds/SoHs or other enchants.

But that's ok, there are lots of players that share your monk = best backline mentality, so it means anet wouldn't be thinking about nerfing ER yet.

A good monk doesnt need to spam prot spirits and infuses. Whats the point having PS on 8 targets when theres 1 taking damage? Whats the point in healing for 600 when your missing 200 health? In theory the E/Mo is great, but in practice most people know that its not. Been a long few weeks of ZM/ZB which I pug for fun, that ive seen many E/Mo. When I do get them it all goes well with nobody dropping below 90% HP until suddenly everyone dies cause E/Mo got stripped, or wasnt focusing for a split second. Ench removal on E/Mo and he is toast aswell as rest of team.

Give me a good monk who can follow damage with guardian/SoA/PS/SB/whatever anyday over a gimiky, fragile E/Mo. Given these monks are few and far between, id guess around 5% of GW monks are good, the rest are shite.

Jeydra · Aug 26, 2010, 10:36 AM // 10:36

What is the drawback of healing for 600 when you're only missing 200 health?
What is it that Guardian and SoA can prot but PS + SB cannot?
Why is it that ostensibly only 1 person is taking damage, which ought to imply that the mob in question is well-aggro'ed, and yet the E/Mo gets stripped? Is the E/Mo that 1 person taking damage? Why?
If an E/Mo can't save someone with a 1/4s cast Infuse because he wasn't focusing for a split second, will a Monk be able to save that someone if he wasn't focusing for a split second either?
If Protective Spirit is a good prot to bring, what is Protective Bond? What about a Protective Bond that's collectively maintained on every party member?

Vallen · Aug 26, 2010, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What is the drawback of healing for 600 when you're only missing 200 health?
What is it that Guardian and SoA can prot but PS + SB cannot?
Why is it that ostensibly only 1 person is taking damage, which ought to imply that the mob in question is well-aggro'ed, and yet the E/Mo gets stripped? Is the E/Mo that 1 person taking damage? Why?
If an E/Mo can't save someone with a 1/4s cast Infuse because he wasn't focusing for a split second, will a Monk be able to save that someone if he wasn't focusing for a split second either?
If Protective Spirit is a good prot to bring, what is Protective Bond? What about a Protective Bond that's collectively maintained on every party member?

Its not that it isn't good, but why over complicate it so much, a good monk can do more than enough to keep a team alive. An E/Mo does 10x what is required to keep the team up and is susceptible to ench removal which will wipe you. Do you really need prot bond on all 8 people with endless prot spamming to beat PVE? If you do then I guess theres no more need to discuss this lol.

A sledgehammer to crack a nut

Meaning

'Using a sledge-hammer to crack a nut' is using disproportionate force or expense to overcome a minor problem.

kanuks · Aug 26, 2010, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen

Its not that it isn't good, but why over complicate it so much, a good monk can do more than enough to keep a team alive. An E/Mo does 10x what is required to keep the team up and is susceptible to ench removal which will wipe you. Do you really need prot bond on all 8 people with endless prot spamming to beat PVE? If you do then I guess theres no more need to discuss this lol.

A sledgehammer to crack a nut

Meaning

'Using a sledge-hammer to crack a nut' is using disproportionate force or expense to overcome a minor problem.

A good monk will fall under heavy pressure. He will eventually run out of energy. ER eles don't. You base your opinion over pug groups and that's where you are wrong. Of course if you pug chances are the er ele isn't very good. A good er ele can deal with ench removal. He will spam less for 5-10 seconds until er recharges. As simple as that. Not to mention that backlines characters rarely get stripped if they know what they're doing. And as Jeydra stated, you seem to compare a top skilled monk to a bad er ele.

Vallen · Aug 26, 2010, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

A good monk will fall under heavy pressure. He will eventually run out of energy. ER eles don't. You base your opinion over pug groups and that's where you are wrong. Of course if you pug chances are the er ele isn't very good. A good er ele can deal with ench removal. He will spam less for 5-10 seconds until er recharges. As simple as that. Not to mention that backlines characters rarely get stripped if they know what they're doing. And as Jeydra stated, you seem to compare a top skilled monk to a bad er ele.

Last statement prob sums up where I'm coming from. I have never met a good player who plays an ER ele.

Guildies / friends who are good players are all old school like myself and will always run monks instead of E/Mo. Maybe a good monk would make a good E/Mo.

As for PB on 8 ppl, SY does as good a job

Haggis of Doom · Aug 26, 2010, 06:44 PM // 18:44

^Yup.

Why use planes when trains do the job?

You progressive people are wrong. We oldschoolers are the best.

-.-

Cuilan · Aug 26, 2010, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Enchantment removal is more a problem for monks than elementalists who can simply cover it or recast it from good recharge and energy. There are a few exceptions based on area, but it even works in Foundry. You shouldn't judge something based on how good a particular person is, but the build itself.

WarcryOfTruth and friends basically replace one form or elitism for another.

THAT BUILD WORKS REALLY WELL DON'T USE IT!11!!11 PEOPLE WHO USE IT ARE MEAN!1!!1

Desert Rose · Aug 27, 2010, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen

A good monk doesnt need to spam prot spirits and infuses. Whats the point having PS on 8 targets when theres 1 taking damage? Whats the point in healing for 600 when your missing 200 health? In theory the E/Mo is great, but in practice most people know that its not. Been a long few weeks of ZM/ZB which I pug for fun, that ive seen many E/Mo. When I do get them it all goes well with nobody dropping below 90% HP until suddenly everyone dies cause E/Mo got stripped, or wasnt focusing for a split second. Ench removal on E/Mo and he is toast aswell as rest of team.

You are comparing a good human monk with a bad human E/Mo player here; of course the the good player will do better than the bad player if things get ugly.
But for a good E/Mo player enchantment strips are only a minor problem, because you can cover ER with multiple enchantments and you can bait the AI to waste their enchantment strips on less important enchantments. And even if ER is stripped you have usually enough energy left to keep the team alive if you stop spamming and just use heals/prots when it's needed until you can recast ER.

What really kills an ER are environmental knockdowns or interrupts, i.e. Arborstone.

Jeydra · Aug 27, 2010, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen

Last statement prob sums up where I'm coming from. I have never met a good player who plays an ER ele.

Then play one yourself, or find a good player who plays ER Ele - after all, if all you do is PuG then you might conclude that Defy Pain is the best Warrior elite just so it gives your Monks more time to heal you, that offensive elites like Dragon Slash do no good when you're dead, etc.

It doesn't take using an E/Mo to do PvE, but it doesn't take using a Monk to do it either, so the point is irrelevant. Also a good E/Mo can do more than just keeping the team alive - most importantly by spamming GDW. Finally, SY does nothing against armour ignoring damage and takes up a PvE slot on Warriors that could've gone to more damage.

As long as Protective Bond stays up there's almost no danger of losing focus for a split second and people dying. Just won't happen. The real danger of Protective Bond is that your party takes enough AoE damage for your energy to go directly to zero. You can't just spam less in that case and there's a good chance your party wipes. High risk, high reward, and that's why I don't recommend maintaining 8 Protective Bonds alone. Alone though, LA + VB backed by energy armour and +30 energy set should be quite safe, enough even to survive losing one ER.