Curse

LifeInfusion · Nov 14, 2010, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Another thing, elemental damage will still suck in HM PVE just like pure piercing or slashing (traps) do:
Rt: Caretaker's Charge , Channeled Strike , Spirit Rift (not really since it has Cracked armor built in) , Clamor of Souls, Cruel was Daoshen (who uses this), Destructive was Glaive (already used due to cheap, high AoE and spammability), Doom , Essence strike (nobody uses it for damage only, the energy gain is the appeal), Explosive growth, Gaze from beyond, Rupture soul, Spirit boon strike, Spirit burn, wielder's strike

D: Dust Cloak, Grenth's Fingers, Mirage Cloak,Mystic Sandstorm,Mystic Twister,Sand Shards, Staggering Force ,Test of Faith,Winds of Disenchantment

N:Bitter chill,Chilblains,Deathly swarm,Fetid ground,Icy veins,Toxic Chill,Vile Miasma

R:Flame trap, Dust trap, Kindle arrows

A: Crippling Dagger, Dancing Daggers, Disrupting Dagger,Impale

Mo:Zealot's fire

Xenomortis · Nov 14, 2010, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Here's the thing:
You could add a 50% armour penetration clause to every Elementalist spell (basically double damage) and Ele nukes would still not be the way to go.

Actually, scratch that.
You could convert every Elementalist spell to deal armour ignoring damage and Ele nukes would still not be the way to go.

The same applies to all those skills you listed there.

High armour in HM PvE simply exasperates a fairly fundamental aspect of the game.

LifeInfusion · Nov 14, 2010, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Here's the thing:
You could add a 50% armour penetration clause to every Elementalist spell (basically double damage) and Ele nukes would still not be the way to go.

Actually, scratch that.
You could convert every Elementalist spell to deal armour ignoring damage and Ele nukes would still not be the way to go.

The same applies to all those skills you listed there.

High armour in HM PvE simply exacerbates a fairly fundamental aspect of the game.

So what you're saying is to just stop playing my ele and just keep playing my necro...or just roll a SoS rit.

Haggis of Doom · Nov 14, 2010, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You could convert every Elementalist spell to deal armour ignoring damage and Ele nukes would still not be the way to go.

(...)

High armour in HM PvE simply exasperates a fairly fundamental aspect of the game.

I think I didn't get something... how does high armor affect armor ignoring damage? Or are you talking about something else that makes ele nukes bad?

Anyhow, imho anet could make all other armor-ignoring damage non-armor-ignoring, and make the armor scale less aggressively with monster level.

Because it always boils down to this: armor-ignoring damage > all, so we want all damage to either be armor-ignoring or have high armor penetration. Why have armor in the first place if that's the case? We'd have to either ditch the armor or the armor-ignoring damage. The choice is a clear one to me.

Jeydra · Nov 14, 2010, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You could convert every Elementalist spell to deal armour ignoring damage and Ele nukes would still not be the way to go.

You sure? I just brought this rather random Searing Flames bar:

16 Fire Magic
13 Energy Storage

Summon Ruby Djinn
Glowing Gaze
Searing Flames
Arcane Echo
Fire Attunement
Arcane Mimicry (targetting Elemental Attunement)
"By Ural's Hammer!"
Intensity

No EBSoH since presumably if Elementalist damage ignored armour it wouldn't be buffed by EBSoH either. Without using Intensity, I scored some ~75 DPS on the Master of Damage. It's not sustained DPS (only the 20s of Arcane Echo), but still ... in a real PvE setting where I can reasonably hit more than one target at a time, if all that damage I did ignored armour I'd suddenly deal more DPS than standard spirit Rits right now.

Xenomortis · Nov 14, 2010, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Or are you talking about something else that makes ele nukes bad?

Yes. When compared to alternative sources of damage in PvE, I don't really care what numbers nukes have attached to them and until they start reaching 200-300+ I won't ever care.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You sure? I just brought this rather random Searing Flames bar:

They would be good in teams were you can't run anything coordinated - i.e. PUGS would like it.
But in a half decent team in PvE, the physicals would still beat it when you can stack a load of broken shit onto them.

Mashiyu · Nov 14, 2010, 12:43 PM // 12:43

As a side note, making all ele-skills armor-ignoring would make ele bosses easier in pve - armor-ignoring damage is not increased by the level difference.

Ensign · Nov 14, 2010, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Honestly if they just gave the WiK treatment to everything in Hard Mode I'd run Eles in PvE. Sure, I'd still want some skill tweaks and the like, and there are some broken skill problems, but that would solve 80% of the issue.

But give me ~60-80 AL targets to throw spells at and I'd be happy.

Xenomortis · Nov 14, 2010, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Honestly if they just gave the WiK treatment to everything in Hard Mode I'd run Eles in PvE. Sure, I'd still want some skill tweaks and the like, and there are some broken skill problems, but that would solve 80% of the issue.

Really? Does the "WiK treatment" include throwing up enemies with ~140-150 armour?

I may run Ele heroes when playing solo (if the alleged 7 hero update materialises), but when playing with humans I see no reason to ever take them (even with these suggestions) outside of ER builds simply because it would take so much to match what could be done with physicals. The War in Kryta mobs don't really do anything to change this - the worst thing is the 6-man limitation, but stuff like odd Tranquility can be dealt with.

LifeInfusion · Nov 14, 2010, 08:43 PM // 20:43

I think what has to be emphasized is that physicals require hitting. If there's blind, soothing images, miss hexes, etc. then they don't hit. If they're melee then they also can't be snared.

Eles "miss" with projectiles like lightning orb but rarely. So it comes down to reliability and AOE range (nothing over adjacent with Mark of pain, Spiteful Spirit) vs power. You could say pure damage eles take less skill to play well even and I'd agree. It's a lot easier to be bad at assassin , warrior, paragon, ranger (not that hard to be bad at Dervish).

Eles don't have orders, Strength of honor, Asuran scan, etc.

LifeInfusion · Nov 14, 2010, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Non armor penetration

Today's ZB:
Searing flames 15 fire (100 damage listed)
73 on afflicted monk
73 on Afflicted ritualist
37 on afflicted ranger
37 on temple guardian
59 on bound kitah (mesmer boss)

Raisu Palace... level 20 shiro'ken
59 Shiro'ken Elementalist/Mesmer/Monk/Rit
50 shiro'ken assassin
42 shiro'ken warrior
44 on level 18 spirit of life

Gyala Hatchery
30 on Juggernaut
39 kurzick warrior (25 maybe with WY!)
73 kurzick monk/mesmer/ele
37 Kurzick ranger

Eternal Grove
52 Luxon warrior
37 Luxon ranger
24 siege turtle

Arborstone
52 warden of the tree (warrior)
72 warden of the spring

Ferndale
62 Mantis Hunter
73 Mantis stormcaller/mender
40 dredge guardian (warrior)
62 dredge gutter (assassin)
73 fungal wallow
37 dredge gatherer (ranger)

realm of torment
Rain of terror 62
shadow of fear 62
armor of insanity 30

abaddon's gate
71 to torment claw

perdition rock
53 to mahgo hydra
74 flesh golem
71 phantom

hell's precipice (bad place to use fire)
22 burning titan
31 risen ashen hulk
22 first of the titans

50 is what would be considered "ok" since that's what you get from cry of frustration/ cry of pain. It's also realistically what you get from attacking rangers in PVP that don't have any extra bonuses.

Xenomortis · Nov 14, 2010, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

50 is what would be considered "ok" since that's what you get from cry of frustration/ cry of pain.

Not really, since those skills have ancillary functions. Searing Flames doesn't.

LifeInfusion · Nov 14, 2010, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Not really, since those skills have ancillary functions. Searing Flames doesn't.

searing flames is used because it's 100 fire damage. When I say 50 damage, I actually mean 50% of listed for all fire magic against armored targets. We're talking about nearby range, so in cases where there's balling it's better than unbuffed melee/ranger/paragon. With splinter weapon, AOHM or crit scythe it's pretty crap.

Then again, it has to be cheap and fast recharging to match mesmer damage. At 15 Illusion, Wandering eye does 110 in nearby range for 5 energy ; clumsiness does 92 in adjacent range for 10 energy and 8 recharge; cry of frustration is in the area 75 damage + a nice interrupt. Both of these have utility, but fall short if you just want bodies to hit the floor since they require the target to try to attack (which means they've been aggroed). I addressed this in http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb..._damage_skills

Stoning @14 earth (101)

Hell's Precipice
Burning titan 44
risen ashen hulk 62
fist of the titans 44
62 spark of the titans

gyala hatchery
15 juggernaut
74 kurzick monk
40 kurz warrior

ferndale
52 undergrowth (warrior)
74 stonescale kirin
52 warden of the forests
37 warden of the branch
30 Salke fur friend
74 warden of the summer

Tahnakai temple
37 temple guardian
37 afflicted ranger
68 afflicted monk
74 afflicted ritualist
60 bound kitah

Why wouldn't you use magnetic surge (71 , 114 if target is enchanted)? But wait, it has no effects...whereas things like Accumulated pain do the same if the target isn't enchanted.

Ultimately it's air , AOE in nearby range or above (not DOT aoe), or bust. Even knockdown AOE has been replaced by mesmers: Psychic instability sees more play than Earthquake/Dragon's stomp. It would be nice if eles did 50% damage to ele armored targets (rangers), 60-70% to warriors, and 85-90% to casters (Mesmers/ritualists/eles/monks/necros).

In PvP you do 50% to rangers not wearing extra armor, 31-38% to warriors with sentinel's insignia depending on if they have +10 to element, 53% to warriors with dreadnought, 84% to casters with blessed insignia or other +10 armor, 73% to casters with +8 armor from shield, 45% to paragons with centurion's.

With BUH you'll get 1.25x the damage, so you'll push 90ish damage on casters instead of 70s. Ideally with BUH you should do at least listed damage. With a 25% intensity you do 1.5625 of the normal damage but that's a slot wasted just to do "normal" damage to casters. Neither of these are up all the time so it is pretty pointless.

Discord = 115 @16 DM
Spirit Rift = 142 (before armor) in adjacent range

Chthon · Nov 15, 2010, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Might as well use other PvE-only skills as a guide for the proper PvE balance point.

Intensity

10e, .75c, 25r

Enchantment Spell. For 20 seconds, your Elementalist skills deal 40...70% more damage.

Are you serious, or is that a protest vote? I think AoHM is numerically stupid (and only restrained by the retarded damage type conversion), and I would not like to see another skill with the same stupid numbers. That's why I strongly favor armor-pen % so that there's at least some scale to it. I do, however, see your point that Intensity will have to do more than just get the ele back where he started (what I suggested with 33% AP) for him to be competitive with other classes that use their PvE skills for positive advantage (ex: AoHM). So... how about 10...50% AP?

LifeInfusion · Nov 15, 2010, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Are you serious, or is that a protest vote? I think AoHM is numerically stupid (and only restrained by the retarded damage type conversion), and I would not like to see another skill with the same stupid numbers. That's why I strongly favor armor-pen % so that there's at least some scale to it. I do, however, see your point that Intensity will have to do more than just get the ele back where he started (what I suggested with 33% AP) for him to be competitive with other classes that use their PvE skills for positive advantage (ex: AoHM). So... how about 10...50% AP?

He's semi serious. Even if we did +70% damage, the ele damage is still within reason for hard mode, but not for normal mode. Plus, that's a copy-paste of Asuran scan.

74*1.7=126 max for 100 damage skills.

I think +35% is enough (100 max on a 100 damage skill at 35%) but against armored mobs like warriors or rangers where you're hitting 37s, the +70% would get you to 63 damage. That's before BUH! We have to take into account BUH! though using it would take up 3 slots in our bar: BUH!, Intensity, Attunement of choice.

A hypothetical build with post-buff intensity would still suck pretty much:
PvE skill 1 (sin support)
PvE skill 2 (YMLAD)
PvE skill 3 (Finish Him!/Pain inverter)
Glyph of lesser energy
Intensity
Attunement
Ele skill 1
Ele skill 2/Res

If using 2 ele skills with 5 energy:
PvE skill 1 (sin support)
PvE skill 2 (YMLAD)
PvE skill 3 (Finish Him!/Pain inverter)
Glyph of lesser energy
Intensity
Ele skill 1
Ele skill 2
Ele skill 3/Res

AP:
PvE skill 1 (sin support)
PvE skill 2 (YMLAD)
PvE skill 3 (Finish Him!/Pain inverter)
Glyph of lesser energy
Intensity
Ele skill 1
Ele skill 2
Assassin's Promise

Then it comes down to what skills would work. Most of the AP builds use orb and chain lightning , earth ones use eruption + churning earth (which I dislike due to 3 cast time).

Chthon · Nov 15, 2010, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Plus, that's a copy-paste of Asuran scan.

Pretty sure he was referring to AoHM (note that the numbers displayed are totally wrong and the actual scale is 41.4 to 74.1, applied to only your armor-sensitive base damage):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Might as well use other PvE-only skills as a guide for the proper PvE balance point.

Intensity

10e, .75c, 25r

Enchantment Spell. For 20 seconds, your Elementalist skills deal 40...70% more damage.

Of course, we can just ASK THE HORSE! Hey, Ensign, which skill were you referring to?

NerfHerder · Nov 15, 2010, 03:56 AM // 03:56

IMO, Intensity should be Critical Agility/"TNTF!" for Ele's. It should only be usable by Eles, somewhat maintainable, and relatively OP. Logistically speaking, the easiest way to balance Eles for HM dmg is to introduce more power creep. Its not the most effective fix, but its easier than rebalancing all monsters in HM because one profession got lost behind the power creep.

Armor Penetration is the way to go. AP would fix the HM issue, while minimalizing OP dmg on NM foes. Wiki has a nice page on Damage Calculation. After reading it over, giving Eles 33-50% AP isnt unreasonable, in order to level the playing field in HM. Although, 25-33% AP should get the job done. At lvl 25 even a monk has 75 AR. At 33% AP that would bring the AR down to 50 enabling the Ele to do spike dmg the way they should be able to.

My version of intensity would be something like..

5e 1/4c 30r- Enchantment. For 5 seconds and 2 seconds for every rank of energy storage your Elementalist Skills have 25-33% AP.

AP from Air Magic skills should stack. Keep in mind a Rt can do lightning dmg as well as an Ele, in some ways better. I feel the Ele should be the clear master of elemental dmg.

Ultimately, I would like to see an Elementalist rework of skills, with more armor ignoring and more ability to perform maintained DPS. But that would take alot more work than changing one skill.

Mouse at Large · Nov 15, 2010, 11:23 AM // 11:23

TBH, my thinking is that reworking Intensity is a less than optimal "fix" for the basic problem facing eles in HM i.e. lack of damage due to mobs AR. Sure - go ER and back into a niche build, but I'm sure that 99% of players play eles for a basic reason - we want to hurt things!!!

I would really like to see ES reworked to add scaled, inherent AP or +bonus damage depending on points invested.

I know that this would also lead to more difficult ele opponents in HM, but as most players seem to think HM is not really much of a challenge, I can live with that

(besides, PI says hi!)

The only pro for going down the Intensity route is that opponents won't have it so it powers up eles without powering up enemies. The downside is it takes up a skillslot.

LifeInfusion · Nov 15, 2010, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

TBH, my thinking is that reworking Intensity is a less than optimal "fix" for the basic problem facing eles in HM i.e. lack of damage due to mobs AR. Sure - go ER and back into a niche build, but I'm sure that 99% of players play eles for a basic reason - we want to hurt things!!!

I would really like to see ES reworked to add scaled, inherent AP or +bonus damage depending on points invested.

I know that this would also lead to more difficult ele opponents in HM, but as most players seem to think HM is not really much of a challenge, I can live with that

(besides, PI says hi!)

The only pro for going down the Intensity route is that opponents won't have it so it powers up eles without powering up enemies. The downside is it takes up a skillslot.

Intensity as an enchantment:
* cover for attunement
* shatter enchantment bait

I don't think Energy storage should be touched in terms of augmenting damage, the skills themselves in the line need to be tweaked.

Anyhow, unless an ele can put out 110-130 to casters and 70+ to armored targets, mesmers are a better choice. Hell, even Desecrate enchantments does 60 armor ignoring damage @15 and it's nearby range as well, with 0 enchantments on the target.

EDIT: FoC on Curses does 80+40 @ 15, but 20 cooldown and 15 energy is prohibitive. Lifebane strike/Shadow strike deal a flat 100 damage armor ignoring when targets are >50%. The rest is 50-70 single target...which is what eles do now.

Adjacent DOT sucks really...

Quote:

Create Breath of Fire at target foe's current location. For 5 seconds, foes adjacent to that location are struck for 10...34...40 fire damage each second. (5/2/30)

Quote:

Create a Fire Storm at target foe's location. For 10 seconds, foes adjacent to that location are struck for 5...29...35 fire damage each second. (10/2/30)

Quote:

Spell. Deals 10...22...25 cold damage and interrupts spells each second (10 seconds). Hits foes adjacent to target's initial location. You are exhausted (25,2,30)

vs

Quote:

Create a Chaos Storm at target foe's location that lasts for 10 seconds. Each second, foes adjacent to this location take 5...21...25 damage and lose 0...2...2 Energy. (5/2/30)

The only reason why Maelstrom is priced high is the interrupting effect, the only reason why Breath of Fire/Firestorm exists in its current fashion is because Searing Heat/Teinai's Heat are nearby range and 15 energy.

reaper with no name · Nov 15, 2010, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Intensity
10 Energy, 1/4 Cast, 20 recharge.
For 10..15 seconds, whenever you use a spell that would cause elemental damage, that damage ignores armor.

This is close to the best option, I think.

If it were me, I'd limit it to elementalist spells and double-link it to energy storage, but other than that it's perfect. It would make the elementalist able to do it's job in HM effectively without making NM that much easier for them.

The only real issues I can foresee from this would be more incentive to tank and spank (but that would be inevitable any time you buff nukes) and the potential for pushing the mesmers back out of the meta.