Curse

Snow Bunny · Aug 29, 2008, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Please do. This is not a jibe. I genuinely believe I can help you with some issues.

[asuran scan][golden fox strike][golden fang strike][moebius strike][death blossom][critical agility][brawling headbutt][falling lotus strike]

[ebon battle standard of honor][golden fox strike][golden fang strike][moebius strike][death blossom][critical agility][brawling headbutt][falling lotus strike]

[avatar of melandru][draw conditions]["i am the strongest!"][wearying strike][eremite's attack][eternal aura][aura of holy might][resurrection signet]

[great dwarf weapon][remove hex][masochism][order of pain][dark fury][signet of removal][technobabble][blood renewal]

[word of healing][protective spirit][dwayna's kiss][cure hex][glyph of lesser energy][shield of absorption][aegis][shielding hands]

[anthem of weariness]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger][signet of return][vicious attack][spear of fury][aggressive refrain]

[earth shaker][crude swing][whirlwind attack][crushing blow]["for great justice!"][lion's comfort][drunken master][death pact signet]

The last is rather optional

It can be a bow rit, one of Trub's builds (which I will not reveal due to a confidentiality agreement

), the spirit spam volleyer, or some funny damage pack rit like...

[offering of spirit][barbs][rigor mortis][mark of pain][splinter weapon][bloodsong][essence strike][ancestor's rage]

This team build is by no means superb; truth be told it was simply a build we ran several times to blow through dungeons faster than normal. Yes, there are flaws in it, but it's very quick. The attribute spec for an ER ele would not bode well here. The last slot is normally a bow rit; the damage pack rit would be a hero because no human would forgive me for having to run that type of bar.

However - it kills fast and leaves a surprisingly small amount of pressure on the monk. I could not solo monk that team with an ER ele.

Anyway, tear it to shreds Moloch.

edit, blehhhhh coding

glacialphoenix · Aug 29, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Real Monks won't run both Spirit Bond and Protective Spirit, let alone cast both on a single target, but an ER Elementalist would.

Why would you cast both on a single target unless you knew beforehand that the target had enough hp to make casting both on him remotely worthwhile?
You'd need at least 600 hp for both effects to kick in. I know there are a lot more people out there with higher hp than there used to be, but if you're talking about PUGs and all the problems associated with them, you cannot exactly expect everyone to have >600 hp anyway.

joshuarodger · Aug 29, 2008, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

Why would you cast both on a single target unless you knew beforehand that the target had enough hp to make casting both on him remotely worthwhile?
You'd need at least 600 hp for both effects to kick in. I know there are a lot more people out there with higher hp than there used to be, but if you're talking about PUGs and all the problems associated with them, you cannot exactly expect everyone to have >600 hp anyway.

actually spirit bond goes into effect before prot spirit. that's why you can run it in a 55 monk build.

Tyla · Aug 29, 2008, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Splinter Weapon lasts for a short time and is basically only put on one target at a time while in battle; its effect expires in six seconds under no IAS. GDW lasts for an eternity in comparison. Splinter Weapon has no disabling effect. GDW has an immensely strong one.

Do you have any idea how powerful Splinter Weapon and a Dervish using basic positioning skills, alongside an Earthshaker Warrior is?

The amount of damage you'll create with one scythe swing empowered by Splinter Weapon hitting three enemies is absolutely stupid.

Quote:

Splinter Weapon is a fail skill for an all-human party.

And how can you even explain this?

Splinter Weapon is the biggest damage AoE spell there is. It expires quickly, but it also recharges quickly. It's also armour ignoring, unless some secret and undocumented update surprisingly slipped by when I wasn't looking while loading Guild Wars.

glacialphoenix · Aug 29, 2008, 08:13 PM // 20:13

@joshuarodger: many thanks.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Aug 29, 2008, 09:13 PM // 21:13

that update must have slipped by me

Jeydra · Aug 29, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

It's actually weaker than the heal based one, FYI.

In addendum. Yes, if you have terrible/hero monks, take the ER elementalist. Otherwise, a competent WoH Hybrid with a good team setup will surpass the uses of the ER elementalist.

You can say it's weaker, but if you cannot come up with reasons I'm not going to believe you. That's all.

Btw lol @ your build, first your guildmate says most prots go under Spirit Bond and Protective Spirit but you run Protective Spirit anyway, and then another guildmate says only bad Monks need energy management and you run GoLE anyway.

Quote:

because Rend Enchantments, Gaze of Fury, Well of the Profane, Shatter Storm, Lingering Curse and others make the ER Prot Ele completely useless, at least until ER recharges and then depending on the area you may have sometihng like Migraine, Power Drain, and well, a ton of other interrupts and cast-extending skills to destroy ER.

Name me an area in which you think anti-enchants or anti-caster hexes are prevalent enough that the ER build fails, and I'll go there and try it out.

We're drifting way off topic again, and if nothing concerning Ether Renewal gets posted I'll again refrain from posting (while I test out ER healer-based builds).

joshuarodger · Aug 29, 2008, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You can say it's weaker, but if you cannot come up with reasons I'm not going to believe you. That's all.

Btw lol @ your build, first your guildmate says most prots go under Spirit Bond and Protective Spirit but you run Protective Spirit anyway, and then another guildmate says only bad Monks need energy management and you run GoLE anyway.

umm... what? what does "go under spirit bond and protective spirit" mean? and if you're implying that someone said we don't use those, i would like you to quote it or give a post number. also where did anyone say anything about not needing energy management? if you wanna blast through a couple dungeons in HM, give the build a shot before you "lol" at it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Name me an area in which you think anti-enchants or anti-caster hexes are prevalent enough that the ER build fails, and I'll go there and try it out.

just off the top of my head, bone pits and chaos planes in HM, maybe even NM. it's tough enough for a monk whose build isn't based off of enchantments, much less an ele who relies on them. this area is a pain in the ass for any monk in a balanced team.

my point is that this whole build relies on one skill and if you're in any area that can counter this one skill your screwed. with a balanced monk bar, the bar is never dependant on one single skill. if WoH gets disabled or diverted, the other skills can still keep a team alive. the same isn't true with ether renewal. i'm not saying that an ER spammer can't be good. but certain situations will completely shut it down and that generally isn't the same with a balanced monk doing the healing/protting.

Jeydra · Aug 30, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Here're the quotes you want.

Tyla saying good Monks don't need energy management: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=124
JDRyder saying most attacks go under the prot ER spammers use, aka. Spirit Bond and Protective Spirit: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=120

I'm not saying the build's bad. I'm saying it contradicts what other people in the same guild and presumably with the same experience have said.

As for those areas, sure, I'll give it a shot sometime. And you again underestimate Ether Renewal. If WoH gets Diverted, the Monk's ability to heal is severely reduced. No kidding, WoH is that critical to the Monk's bar. The team won't collapse and die, but it will have to pull back, everyone play a bit more defensively, etc. If ER gets Diverted, the same is the case. Without ER the only skills on the ER bar that are disabled are Infuse and a maintained enchantment, if any. You can still use the rest, you just have to be more careful with it.

joshuarodger · Aug 30, 2008, 02:11 AM // 02:11

i read those posts and i have to agree with both of them. good monks don't need energy management most of the time. i always have GoLE on my bar but 90% of the time don't need to use it. it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. JD actually said, "also the only places that dont have rend or some shit, are easy as hell and theres no point to look for the ele ER spammer, cause the monk will still do better and most of the attacks will go under the prots the ER spammer uses." he was commenting on areas that don't have enchant removal and the uselessness of big prots/heals, and therefore the uselessness of the ER spammer, in those areas because your target most likely won't take damage over 60 to satisfy the condition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

WoH hits for about 120 unconditional and 200 under 50%, and is elite. Spiritlight hits for about 150 always and is not elite, and only needs you to have a spirit about that you can drop BEHIND the party

when talking about healing and comparing rits/monks/ER spammers/whatever, everyone tends to forget about divine favor. at 14 HP my [[[email protected]] heals for 122, divine favor @ 9 adds 29. that's 161 health for 5 energy before the condition is met, if the conditional boost kicks in, it's 245 for 5 energy, and you can target yourself. [[dwayna's [email protected]] hits 119 if there is just one enchant or hex on your target. [[patient [email protected]] is 143, and you can target yourself. i think you're getting my point there but we haven't even factored the damage negated through [[protective spirit], [[shield of abs], etc., which also get a divine favor bonus when used. i realize that ER is its own self heal as well as an energy engine but it's very gimmicky. sometimes gimmicks work out. see N/Rt healer. you don't see any N/Mo healers though because there's no divine favor, which is one of the main strengths of a monk and one that tends to get overlooked.

i guess what i'm getting at, is a monk is much more versatile and can do the protting and healing just as well at the same time, whereas, an ele has to specialize one way or the other because 2-3 skill slots are taken up for just E management. people seem that a monk is there to spam heals. a monk's real value is in negating damage before having to heal, then mopping up what's left. it's not the ER spammer itself i have issues with, it's the versatility of the build i have issues with. i definitely see what's going on there and have tried the heal build on my ele. it wasn't nearly as effective as my monk is.

Chthon · Aug 30, 2008, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Splinter Weapon is the biggest damage AoE spell there is.

No, Mark of Pain is the biggest AoE spell there is. And, oddly enough, Moloch is the author of the definitive MoP build.

What Moloch is saying -- and he's pretty close to the mark in my opinion (horrible pun intended) -- is that, assuming your team is good about following called targets, a AP-MoP necro can turn every hit by every team member into an adjacent-range AoE pop with higher damage than splinter weapon. At that point, you don't need any more adjacent-range AoE -- MoP kills everything that doesn't flee instantly -- so you're better served to focus on more damage to the primary target and a useful secondary effect.

I sometimes carry both splinter and GDW on my bar as a support necro. The only time I regularly opt for splinter over GDW is for an opening shot with barrage/volley. Otherwise, splinter is just there to make up for not having enough copies of GDW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

[asuran scan][golden fox strike][golden fang strike][moebius strike][death blossom][critical agility][brawling headbutt][falling lotus strike]

[ebon battle standard of honor][golden fox strike][golden fang strike][moebius strike][death blossom][critical agility][brawling headbutt][falling lotus strike]

There's a somewhat useful thread in the assassin forum for improving these. A few thoughts:

For most areas, Club of a Thousand Bears > Brawling Headbutt since it's an attack skill and therefore recharged by MS.
Falling Lotus is unnecessary. Having a pair of zealous daggers on switch is all the e-management a MS-DB assassin needs. If you really want an e-management skill, Critical Eye consistently adds damage in addition to e-management.
With Critical Agility always active, GPS can replace GFoxS+GFangS. Think really hard about how much you want that deep wound, and how much you want it on both assassins and the dervish.
Unless you have great faith in your team's ability to keep the imbagon hitting through blind, chance-to-miss hexes, no-shout hexes/wells, and block, I'd suggest a second copy of SY!, either on one of the assassins, or on the warrior.
If you have extra PvE-only skillslots, Sneak Attack can be a useful replacement for GFoxS.

Quote:

[FONT=Tahoma]
[avatar of melandru][draw conditions]["i am the strongest!"][wearying strike][eremite's attack][eternal aura][aura of holy might][resurrection signet]

I'm not quite sure what the aim of this build is. If you're going for AoE damage + condition removal, a D/N could do a better job (or a minion bomber with infuse condition). For straight-up direct damage, a permanent-Lyssa would do more damage. In any event, this build strikes me as a duck -- it can fly, swim, and run, but does none of them particularly well.

I'd probably remove this build altogether and replace it with something different.

Quote:

[great dwarf weapon][remove hex][masochism][order of pain][dark fury][signet of removal][technobabble][blood renewal]

Blood renewal tends to get this sort of support build killed. Often. If you're not totally in love with the Signet of Removal, remove it, and use the new-and-improved Vampiric Spirit for the self-heal.

Really, I think this build would be better suited to losing the removal aspect altogether and folding the other support build into this one by sticking your splinter and possibly ancestors rage here (and dropping the other support build).

Also, if you really wanted to, condition removal could go here with Foul Feast plus Plague Sending/Signet.

Quote:

[word of healing][protective spirit][dwayna's kiss][cure hex][glyph of lesser energy][shield of absorption][aegis][shielding hands]

Since monk vs ele is at issue, I make no comment here.

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[anthem of weariness]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger][signet of return][vicious attack][spear of fury][aggressive refrain]

Fine.

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[earth shaker][crude swing][whirlwind attack][crushing blow]["for great justice!"][lion's comfort][drunken master][death pact signet]

Fine. Here's one possible place to put your backup SY!.

Quote:

The last is rather optional

It can be a bow rit, one of Trub's builds (which I will not reveal due to a confidentiality agreement

), the spirit spam volleyer, or some funny damage pack rit like...

[offering of spirit][barbs][rigor mortis][mark of pain][splinter weapon][bloodsong][essence strike][ancestor's rage]

Use Moloch's AP-MoP build.

-----------------------------------------------

Anywho, enough of going waaaaaay off topic.

Let's try to answer monk vs ele by focusing on the basics of what you want from your "healer." So, what do we want from a perfect "healer"?

Big, quick spot heals for when people take significant damage.
Party heals for when several people take significant damage at once.
Damage prevention to avoid the situation where (a) someone takes fatal damage before you can react, or (b) the monster's damage per second exceeds your healing per second.
Bar-topping heals to increase people's safety margin and avoid the situation where someone takes fatal damage before you can react.
Self-heal to stay alive.
Condition removal.
Hex removal.
Rez.

Obviously, it's not possible to get that all on one bar, or even two, but it's a breakdown of the archetypal goals of the "healer."

How do the two builds stack up on this?

Spot Heal.
Infuse beats even WoH for heal/sec and cast time.
Advantage Ele.
Party Heal.
High-spec Heal Party (usually with HBoon) is king. The DF party heals take too long to recharge. Shield Guardian is potentially very strong, but prone to random failures and requires auto-attacking foes to trigger. Breath is pretty weak.
Note, however, that the monk lacks the energy to cast HP very often, and the ele can mitigate the lack of a good party heal through excessive pre-protting and a very speedy spot heal.
(Slight) Advantage Monk.
Damage Prevention.
PS and Spirit Bond, and the energy to use them whenever you like, versus anything?
Advantage Ele.
Bar-topping.
Is largely absent from most backline builds these days (except mine it seems). Monks could run Sig of Rejuv, but many don't. The ele completely lacks a bar-topping skill, but it can use the splash heals from Shield Guardian for that task, clumsily; and it can also use Infuse for that job, costlessly, but it's rather overkill.
(Slight) Advantage Ele.
Self-heal to stay alive.
As great as WoH is, casting PS on yourself and getting a huge heal at the same time is even better at guaranteeing your survival.
Advantage Ele.
Condition removal.
A monk can bring dismiss; an Ele has no room for it.
Note, however, that Foul Feast has (at least for me) nearly obviated the need for condition removal on the "healer." Let a necro primary or secondary do it.
(Slight) Advantage monk.
Hex removal.
A monk can bring Cure Hex or Veil; an Ele has no room for it.
Advantage monk.
Rez.
Neither build really has room for it.
Advantage neither.

So, where's that leave us? The Ele is better at the bread-and-butter prevent and heal business. The monk is better at condition removal, which hardly matters; hex removal, which may or may not matter; and, to a degree, party healing. I think the crux of the matter is going to be hex removal -- where the ability to remove one key hex every 8 sec matters, monk is better; where it does not, ele is better. There's also something to be said for the ability to respond to key conditions and party-wide damage with a response more fine-tuned than "PS and/or SB and/or Infuse," but I don't think it's enough, without a situation where hex removal matters, to make the monk clearly superior.

Jeydra · Aug 30, 2008, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

i read those posts and i have to agree with both of them. good monks don't need energy management most of the time. i always have GoLE on my bar but 90% of the time don't need to use it. it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. JD actually said, "also the only places that dont have rend or some shit, are easy as hell and theres no point to look for the ele ER spammer, cause the monk will still do better and most of the attacks will go under the prots the ER spammer uses." he was commenting on areas that don't have enchant removal and the uselessness of big prots/heals, and therefore the uselessness of the ER spammer, in those areas because your target most likely won't take damage over 60 to satisfy the condition.

Tyla said shortly after that he doesn't use GoLE because PvE isn't 'serious enough' (lol). And I can't think of an area in which Spirit Bond / Protective Spirit are useless. One or the other of the skills are staples on any Monk bar, regardless of how much anti-enchant there is.

But you're free to believe whatever you want, if only because blood is thicker than water.

Quote:

i guess what i'm getting at, is a monk is much more versatile and can do the protting and healing just as well at the same time, whereas, an ele has to specialize one way or the other because 2-3 skill slots are taken up for just E management. people seem that a monk is there to spam heals. a monk's real value is in negating damage before having to heal, then mopping up what's left. it's not the ER spammer itself i have issues with, it's the versatility of the build i have issues with. i definitely see what's going on there and have tried the heal build on my ele. it wasn't nearly as effective as my monk is.

You're running the heal build, which is also probably the weaker one. Try the prot one instead. Run Ensign's bar. An ER Ele can outspam a Monk at pure heals, but that's not his real task; it is to outspam the Monk at prots.

@Chthon - here's how I read your criteria:

Spot heal: Infuse > WoH thanks to faster cast time and no recharge. Large advantage Ele.

Party heal: Healer's Boon + Heal Party is much superior to any kind of party-wide heal an Elementalist can put out. Large advantage Monk.

Damage prevention: Theoretically the Elementalist can cast any prot in the game except Seed of Life effectively - not as effective as a Monk maybe but effective enough. In practice one more spell is out of the Elementalist's reach thanks to its longer recharge, Shield of Absorption. Aegis is also somewhat hard to reach, but doable. The Elementalist's ability to spam prots nonstop compensates. Mild advantage Ele.

Bar topping: Don't quite understand your definition but I'm guessing you're hinting at Divine Intervention? Either way the Elementalist wins: with Protective Spirit on every relevant target a target won't drop before the Elementast gets the change to Infuse. Mild advantage Ele.

Self heal: Elementalists heal themselves with every cast so long as ER stays up. In this they are superior. However, if ER ever drops, they can't heal themselves well, if at all. Slight advantage Ele.

Condition removal: RC > Draw Conditions, although Purifying Veil might even things I've not tried it yet. Mild advantage Monk.

Hex removal: It's Divert Hexes vs. Convert Hexes and I'm inclined to say it's almost equal. Divert Hexes cannot be spammed thanks to the 10 energy cost (especially if you're such a good Monk you don't need energy management, lol). Convert Hexes, if it had a shorter cooldown, would be superior. Equal.

Res: If Res is needed on the Monk bar a real Monk can certainly fit it in easier, although most of the time neither bar would include one. Slight advantage Monk.

But overall I agree with your conclusion. If up against degen pressure (i.e. mass conditions, mass degen hexes) then a Monk is better; otherwise the Elementalist can at least compete.

Cathode_Reborn · Aug 30, 2008, 10:26 AM // 10:26

The only time I wouldn't want an ER as a prot'er is in DoA (maybe Slaver's too) where I'd rather have it bring Divert Hexes.

Other than that, I really don't see any reason to hate something that can throw out PS/SB all day with absolutely no energy probs.

I don't really agree with good monks not needing any e-management. Whether or not that's true depends heavily on your team - You can be an insanely good monk but if your team is lacking, then yeah you're eventually gonna go dry if they arn't gettin stuffed killed.

"A good monk on a good team won't need any e-mangement" makes alot more sense.

JDRyder · Aug 30, 2008, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

Why would you cast both on a single target unless you knew beforehand that the target had enough hp to make casting both on him remotely worthwhile?
You'd need at least 600 hp for both effects to kick in. I know there are a lot more people out there with higher hp than there used to be, but if you're talking about PUGs and all the problems associated with them, you cannot exactly expect everyone to have >600 hp anyway.

you can have PS on 1 monk and SB on the other monk, and even if you dont have 600 HP SB will still go off if you have PS as well "you can test this by just taking off your armor and watching the heals pop up from SB"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Here're the quotes you want.

Tyla saying good Monks don't need energy management: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=124
JDRyder saying most attacks go under the prot ER spammers use, aka. Spirit Bond and Protective Spirit: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=120

I'm not saying the build's bad. I'm saying it contradicts what other people in the same guild and presumably with the same experience have said.

As for those areas, sure, I'll give it a shot sometime. And you again underestimate Ether Renewal. If WoH gets Diverted, the Monk's ability to heal is severely reduced. No kidding, WoH is that critical to the Monk's bar. The team won't collapse and die, but it will have to pull back, everyone play a bit more defensively, etc. If ER gets Diverted, the same is the case. Without ER the only skills on the ER bar that are disabled are Infuse and a maintained enchantment, if any. You can still use the rest, you just have to be more careful with it.

when did NPCs get Diversion? And its easy for monks to deal with diversion cause they are not spamming.

and yes a lot of stuff even in hard mode only hits for 40s and 50s so none of your prots get used,

also unless you mod you team to work for the ER ele it does not work very well cause you lose utility/flexibility for more stuff you don't need any more of. Its like saying "hmm I have all the healing and prot i need, let me add more prot and healing and take out the flexibility"

I still don't see how people can think a ER ele is better than a 2 monk "or even 1 monk" back line, Heres the Monk bars TAM has been using for 2monk back lines for random HM pve and even set build for some dungeons we like doing

[build=OwYT04nCxRjMTub1Dkxme6fXBA]
[build=OwYT04XCTquqBUgQLCZYTb67uCA]

not sure i can ask for more in a pve monk set up, we do change them a little cause we all like different skills, i like remove hex or holy veil better than cure and we dont always need GoLE but, you can pop the 2 monks in to any 8 man team and be fine with out having to change any skills on the DPS/Support bars to make up for lack of not having something on the healers.

Jeydra · Aug 30, 2008, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

when did NPCs get Diversion? And its easy for monks to deal with diversion cause they are not spamming.

No idea. Ask your guildmate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuarodger

my point is that this whole build relies on one skill and if you're in any area that can counter this one skill your screwed. with a balanced monk bar, the bar is never dependant on one single skill. if WoH gets disabled or diverted, the other skills can still keep a team alive. the same isn't true with ether renewal. i'm not saying that an ER spammer can't be good. but certain situations will completely shut it down and that generally isn't the same with a balanced monk doing the healing/protting.

Quote:

not sure i can ask for more in a pve monk set up, we do change them a little cause we all like different skills, i like remove hex or holy veil better than cure and we dont always need GoLE but, you can pop the 2 monks in to any 8 man team and be fine with out having to change any skills on the DPS/Support bars to make up for lack of not having something on the healers.

You can also pop Ensign's bar into any 8 man team and be fine without having to change any skills, unless the team is not running physical in the first place when you drop Great Dwarf Weapon. I've run the ER bar raw and unaltered through various HM missions, vanquishes, HM dungeons and Urgoz's Warren, so it certainly works enough.

By the way after trying to find a team in UW today I'll have to ask you to provide a different area where anti-enchants are prevalent. Given my PvE network of friends I will not be able to get 8 humans for UW HM; even 4 humans for UW NM is pretty hard. Pick an area where I can access with heroes / henchmen, preferably. That said, I did do Urgoz NM successfully today (vs. Greater Blood Drinkers with Strip Enchant) - didn't get targetted once.

@Ensign - here're some thoughts on the ER bar after trying it out extensively today with my attribute setup (12-11-4-5).

1. You don't have to refresh Ether Renewal each time it drops. I kept refreshing it but it's more a reflex action than anything else: you typically have 80+ energy on a cast set, and Ether Renewal lets you renew your energy quickly enough that you can drop to ~30 energy quite safely. Following on this train of thought it might be possible (but probably not a good idea) to drop Glyph of Swiftness entirely if you aren't running a maintained enchant.
2. The bar lacks a way to replenish energy even quicker than that. If for example you die, or if you get EBurned, or if you make a mistake and drop to dangerously low energy with ER down, you're in a tight spot. You need 3 enchantments to begin to restore energy, and even then it's only two energy per cast. With 4 enchantments (which is all you have on the bar) it's still rather slow compared to what you might achieve with RoF or Shield Guardian and 3 spam skills. Still, not too bad a drawback since you usually have to make a pretty serious mistake to end up in this situation.
3. Weakness seriously hurts the bar (13 Energy Storage -> 12).
4. You might actually be able to use Infuse Health even with ER down if you aren't getting hit. Aura of Restoration restores some health and so does Breath of the Great Dwarf; the other Monk(s) in the team might be running LoD and Heal Party too which cleans up the damage for no cost.
5. If the other Monk(s) in the team are running LoD / UA / HB + Heal Party, you might not need Breath of the Great Dwarf. They're so much better party healers compared to you that you might as well play to your strengths and take one of the alternative skills (RoF, Shield Guardian, a maintained enchant, etc).
6. The bar generally works very well, but you rather have to concentrate and not get distracted (constantly refreshing ER, not stacking GDW with Splinter Weapon, protting, etc).

I'm still looking for a chance to try out variants of the heal-based ER bar; it's not easy since I typically can't trust other Monks to Prot effectively so I take up the responsibility myself. Preliminarily, the bar would probably be 11-11-8 (8 Prot), running:

Ether Renewal
Glyph of Swiftness
Aura of Restoration
Heal Party
Infuse Health
Heal Other / Jamei's Gaze
Aegis
Protective Spirit

If anyone has any ideas let me know.

Tyla · Aug 30, 2008, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Here're the quotes you want.

Tyla saying good Monks don't need energy management: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=124

Maybe I should broaden it.

A good Monk won't need the energy management from Ether Renewal, Soul Reaping or any of that crap. A good Monk will rely on his/her player skill, the party not being complete jerkoffs and maybe GoLE if s/he really wants to.

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Tyla said shortly after that he doesn't use GoLE because PvE isn't 'serious enough' (lol).

Considering I could freely run a frontlining, pure healing Divine Favour Monk and when running a "normal" build I usually put in something for the lolz instead of GoLE. If I was being serious, I wouldn't run friggin' Sever Artery at 3 spec at all.

And if I was being serious, I would probably use something other than GoLE in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Chthon

No, Mark of Pain is the biggest AoE spell there is. And, oddly enough, Moloch is the author of the definitive MoP build.

Fine then, whatever, but even if Mark of Pain has a similar effect, Splinter Weapon has much less recharge and also triggers Mark of Pain. Even if Mark of Pain is the second best one, Splinter isn't far behind at all.

joshuarodger · Aug 30, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

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Originally Posted by JDRyder

when did NPCs get Diversion? And its easy for monks to deal with diversion cause they are not spamming.

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

No idea. Ask your guildmate.

shiro'ken mesmers i know use it. dragon lillies also. it's a core skill. it's used by various foes in all campaigns.

JDRyder · Aug 30, 2008, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You can also pop Ensign's bar into any 8 man team and be fine without having to change any skills, unless the team is not running physical in the first place when you drop Great Dwarf Weapon. I've run the ER bar raw and unaltered through various HM missions, vanquishes, HM dungeons and Urgoz's Warren, so it certainly works enough.

Orly? i do dungeons, vanqs, urgoz etc with a monk as well and it certainly works. Monks are still better, just cause you can run the ER build does not make it better

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

By the way after trying to find a team in UW today I'll have to ask you to provide a different area where anti-enchants are prevalent. Given my PvE network of friends I will not be able to get 8 humans for UW HM; even 4 humans for UW NM is pretty hard. Pick an area where I can access with heroes / henchmen, preferably. That said, I did do Urgoz NM successfully today (vs. Greater Blood Drinkers with Strip Enchant) - didn't get targetted once.

under world is easy as shit, you can BYOB it in HM and do it in less than 50mins and we do Urgoz in Hm with NP, GoE "a guild in r ally" did it in 25mins in HM

anyway ROFL your doing all this with H/H NM? Doing things in NM is nothing like HM, the IA is REALLY dumb in NM, in HM its a lot different they do things like attack healers and move out of AoE as well as do a lot more DPS and cast skills faster.

If your not even doing any thing but h/h NM, what makes you think any of this will apply to human team in HM?

Ensign · Aug 30, 2008, 03:36 PM // 15:36

I think the best way to deal with deaths on this guy is to sit on a shield set all the time, and if you die sitting in a high set for a while.

Monks have one of two main strengths in PvE: removal or party healing. I'd use the Breath of the Great Dwarf slot to supplement whichever the Monk is not doing. I virtually never play with Healer's Boon / Heal Party spammers, so I run the extra heal; if you are playing with one, drop it for Draw/Convert.

You don't need to keep Ether Renewal up all the time, but the Glyph lets you pick and choose when to cast it. If you need to, it can go up again immediately, or you can slow roll it; it also lets you pre-cast Ether Renewal before a fight when it's still untouchable. You don't *have* to Glyph the Ether Renewal every time - in a pinch, I'll gamble and not use it to save the time - but it's really, really good most of the time.

Jeydra · Aug 30, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Orly? i do dungeons, vanqs, urgoz etc with a monk as well and it certainly works. Monks are still better, just cause you can run the ER build does not make it better

Your post in an entirely different (also entirely true, I've done it before) view:

Orly? I do dungeons, vanquishes, Urgoz etc. with an Elementalist healer using Ether Prodigy as well and it certainly works. Elementalists are still better, just cause you can run a real Monk does not make it better.

Hope you see how threadbare your post is.

Quote:

under world is easy as shit, you can BYOB it in HM and do it in less than 50mins and we do Urgoz in Hm with NP, GoE "a guild in r ally" did it in 25mins in HM

anyway ROFL your doing all this with H/H NM? Doing things in NM is nothing like HM, the IA is REALLY dumb in NM, in HM its a lot different they do things like attack healers and move out of AoE as well as do a lot more DPS and cast skills faster.

If your not even doing any thing but h/h NM, what makes you think any of this will apply to human team in HM?

Quit beating around the bush. Name an area that I can access easily. I don't have the friends necessary to bring an 8-human team into UW. If the only areas you can think of are in the UW, then the ER build is certainly extremely applicable (works in every area of the game except UW).

@Ensign - agree with everything, just one quaint observation: I've noticed you want monsters to attack you instead of most other casters in the team. That's because you will usually have Protective Spirit and Ether Renewal on yourself, which lets you tank fairly OK as well as put the passive health gain from ER / Aura of Restoration to use. Sitting on a shield set dissuades monsters from doing this (and since you already run more than 600 HP, you aren't a target in the first place).