Curse

Jeydra · Aug 28, 2008, 03:51 AM // 03:51

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No killing = no Soul Reaping bonus.

However much the Soul Reaping bonus might be it is no match for Ether Renewal.

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Why would you want to prot minions? Death Nova deals armour ignoring damage, you would want the minions to die, not to mention there's no point in keeping them alive because there would be alot of corpses most of the time in PvE unless you're terribad and you might aswell let them die because the Necros have infinite energy for minions, and Death Nova makes them hurt. Alot.

Good point. Alright. Don't prot minions.

Still doesn't change the fact that Ether Renewal allows spam if you ever need it.

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Ah, but if you can get it you would take it wouldn't you?

I would take 1 million if I could do it easily simply because I can. For the same reason, I would also get a house. I would also take free damage through wanding and not spam my prots when they aren't needed too.

Also, I have 400 pounds in my bank currently. I'm not going to spend it because I don't need to, but that doesn't mean it won't come in handy sometimes or when something I want comes. I could live without a house and sleep on a bench, but then that would be the same as throwing away that 400 pounds. I wanted the house.

I would take the ability to prot people for no reason other than to counter the miniscule possibility that they suddenly take burst damage from somewhere because I can.

Wand DPS is so low I'd much rather cover against that possibility than deal the damage.

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Pretty sure he said before, meaning before the buff to Ether Renewal.

I answered that.

1. Soul Reaping does not allow for anywhere near the spam Ether Renewal can do (and spam, even if it's not necessary, is not a bad thing to do).
2. Soul Reaping does not heal yourself. Ether Renewal does.
3. You can heal and prot effectively with Ether Renewal without splitting skill points too much. You can't do the same with Soul Reaping.

Anyway I won't be arguing this anymore. Ether Renewal Elementalist healers might be bad for some people, but they're great for me, and so I'll continue to use them. Too bad for those who miss out on the brute power of ER. Any further posts I make here will be on the shape and variants of the bar, that's all.

Tyla · Aug 28, 2008, 03:58 AM // 03:58

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

Wand DPS is so low I'd much rather cover against that possibility than deal the damage.

More damage is more damage. Honestly, you have 15 more damage contributing to your total damage the same way a Conjure buffs your physicals' damage, except this doesn't take a skillslot.

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However much the Soul Reaping bonus might be it is no match for Ether Renewal.

I'm not bothered about the superiority at all, but if you're not killing in PvE you're probably baed.

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Still doesn't change the fact that Ether Renewal allows spam if you ever need it.

Who said I was against the fact that ER allows spam...?

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I would take the ability to prot people for no reason other than to counter the miniscule possibility that they suddenly take burst damage from somewhere because I can.

This isn't PvP where shadowsteps are used tactically. This is PvE where most things are dumb. Plus there's the aftercast which gives more than enough time to pre-prot.

DarkSpirit · Aug 28, 2008, 04:25 AM // 04:25

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Originally Posted by Tyla

People don't need prots all the time and I could add even the most minimalist of damage through autoattacking.

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Originally Posted by Tyla

This isn't PvP where shadowsteps are used tactically. This is PvE where most things are dumb. Plus there's the aftercast which gives more than enough time to pre-prot.

You are justifying that spamming is bad because it prevents you from autoattacking with your little wand, when you could be pre-protecting?

Even in PvE, you DO make mistakes from time to time. Having one of your pre-protects up to cover one of your mistakes in HM is already more advantageous than all your autoattacking added up.

Tyla · Aug 28, 2008, 04:33 AM // 04:33

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You are justifying that spamming is bad because it prevents you from autoattacking with your little wand, when you could be pre-protecting?

Again, you don't need the prots all the time and when you don't need the prots autoattack to create more total DPS. How many times do I have to say this?

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Even in PvE, you DO make mistakes from time to time. Having one of your pre-protects up to cover one of your mistakes in HM is already more advantageous than all your autoattacking added up.

Yes, you make mistakes. You're not exactly going to preprot say your frontliner when there's an enemy shadowstepping to your Monk are you?

Enemies in PvE just jump to whatever and hit it with it's combo or autoattack or whatever. And if you pre-prot the wrong person it's not going to take long to pre-prot another if you really need to.

Ensign · Aug 28, 2008, 05:17 AM // 05:17

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

(at most, I just figured I can't get to 4 Air while keeping 12/12 Energy Storage / Protection Prayers, so no point).

12/12/3 is a spec. You get the Glyph even going pure dual-spec. I don't know why it wouldn't be specced, ever.

It's ideal to pair the guy with Healer's Boon actually, since the only thing that guy is really good at is Heal Party and this guy isn't very good at Heal Party; if you do that you get a slot back but hell if I know what you'd want to put there.

DarkSpirit · Aug 28, 2008, 05:50 AM // 05:50

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Again, you don't need the prots all the time and when you don't need the prots autoattack to create more total DPS. How many times do I have to say this?

Your little wand is going to do dipshit DPS, so I dont understand why that is such a big deal to you. Do you even notice the HM monster's health bar move when you autoattack?

I dont even care to meet the damage req of my staff most of the time because I am too lazy to change staves based on my build and you know what? It doesn't affect the performance one bit in PvE because spells matter more than wand damage for casters.

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Yes, you make mistakes. You're not exactly going to preprot say your frontliner when there's an enemy shadowstepping to your Monk are you?

Enemies in PvE just jump to whatever and hit it with it's combo or autoattack or whatever. And if you pre-prot the wrong person it's not going to take long to pre-prot another if you really need to.

That is provided you have the energy then to pre-prot another. We are comparing a energy limited build against an infinite energy build. Why do you not see the advantages?

Having the ability to pre-prot most of your team IS better than not, especially where most monks are concerned. Most monks in PUGs ARE mediocre in case you have not noticed.

Tyla · Aug 28, 2008, 06:06 AM // 06:06

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Your little wand is going to do dipshit DPS, so I dont understand why that is such a big deal to you. Do you even notice the HM monster's health bar move when you autoattack?

Who cares how much damage it's doing? It's still doing additional damage.

You're contributing an extra ~15 DPS, and the more damage that is contributed, the faster things die. Wanding inbetween needed casts to contribute to the damage dealt.

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I dont even care to meet the damage req of my staff most of the time because I am too lazy to change staves based on my build and you know what? It doesn't affect the performance one bit in PvE because spells matter more than wand damage for casters.

In other words you just headbutt your keyboard?

You don't need to be casting 100% of the time as a caster.

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That is provided you have the energy then to pre-prot another. We are comparing a energy limited build against an infinite energy build. Why do you not see the advantages?

Yet if you do not make these mistakes the extra energy is not needed. You don't need infinite energy at all.

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Having the ability to pre-prot most of your team IS better than not, especially where most monks are concerned.

Why would you need your entire team being pre-protted?

And even in that scenario, take 2.75 seconds and cast Aegis instead. AoE damage? Split up and use the necesary prot on said target.

Big mobs? Aggo holding. If you're overaggroing, that is the only thing that would save you as you can't prot the entire party just by using Spirit Bond or Protective Spirit once, because there would already be someone dead by the time you've finished protting everything. You should only be grabbing lots of aggro if you're running an SF 'Sin, in a Cryway team anyway.

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Most monks in PUGs ARE mediocre in case you have not noticed.

If you'd call them mediocre... PuGs are usually bad anyway, and not everyone would need Ether Renewal to power their energy gain. Oh, and I don't PuG PvE. I either H/H or ask my guild to see if anyone wants to tag along.

Moloch Vein · Aug 28, 2008, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Tyla. You're wrong. Take a step back. Relax.

You have painted yourself into a corner where you defend wanding enemies in hard mode PvE as opposed to keeping important prots maintained on recharge on your entire party.

You have painted yourself into a corner where you defend wanding enemies in hard mode PvE to "increase DPS" while you claim there is no benefit in maintaining GDW on recharge to increase your physicals' damage by an armor ignoring +20.

Chill.

Snow Bunny · Aug 28, 2008, 07:03 AM // 07:03

While Tyla has a severe overtendency to get ridiculously technical and ignore the forest for the trees...

Most of you are ignoring the fact that the E/* takes a lot of investment for it to work.

Most of what it's able to do with infinite energy can be better done by spacing such utility out over the rest of the team (assume it's all human).

To take the E/* ER is pretty much a waste. I have yet to encounter a PvE situation where I would have preferred an Ele ER over something if at all.

The prots it spams aren't very good and if you're spamming RoF around then you're not using the skill correctly.

It's a funny concept to play around with but it's really not worth the slot in a pve team, where if you're racing the clock party efficiency is key.

Ensign sort of touched on it with GDW spam, but even that can be easily managed by an Orders necromancer, especially in an area like Urgoz or FoW.

edit: Tyla, wanding shit to death in HM doesn't work. I've tried.

Jeydra · Aug 28, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

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Originally Posted by Ensign

12/12/3 is a spec. You get the Glyph even going pure dual-spec. I don't know why it wouldn't be specced, ever.

It's ideal to pair the guy with Healer's Boon actually, since the only thing that guy is really good at is Heal Party and this guy isn't very good at Heal Party; if you do that you get a slot back but hell if I know what you'd want to put there.

I didn't get the Glyph to affect two spells because my Air Rune is on the headpiece and I didn't feel like salvaging stuff (not to mention I have Superior Air runes, not Minor).

I think it might be possible to run a second Elementalist healer as backline. Preliminarily, the bar would look like:

11 + 2 Energy Storage
12 Healing Prayers
6 Protection Prayers

Glyph of Swiftness
Ether Renewal
Heal Party
Heal Other
Protective Spirit
Breath of the Great Dwarf (maybe)
PvE skills (Ebon Batle Standard of Courage especially)
Aura of Restoration or Zealot's Fire or Mindbender or ...
Infuse Health (maybe)
Some maintainable enchantment

I've got 10 skills listed so some will have to be picked and moved around. Skill point distribution might be changable too, eg. dropping one point from Protection Prayers for 4 points Air, or dropping one point from Healing Prayers to raise Air and Protection Prayers (or Smiting Prayers, if running Zealot's Fire).

For the Elementalist ER healer it's a huge pity that Heal Party doesn't cast fast enough; if it got nerfed to 50 energy cost and 1/4 second cast, it would be wiped straight from Healer's Boon bars but Ether Renewal would still give enough energy to use it (gg Soul Reaping too lol). Heal Other is a great spell for pure healing so it's there. Infuse might also find a place, since as long as the Elementalist is spamming he'll be restoring health and so one of the prime drawbacks of Infuse - that you have to spend energy and time to heal back the health loss - does not apply anymore. Breath of the Great Dwarf might be redundant with Heal Party, but it still does cast much faster, allowing you to move around the battlefield / cast Heal Other / etc.

Protective Spirit is there because its effectiveness is undiminished by lower levels of Protection Prayers, and this Elementalist can keep it up on one player. He can also keep it on himself for Ether Renewal. Spirit Bond is another skill that might be good. Even though Spirit Bond gets less effective with lower Protection Prayers, it is still a powerful Prot. If it costs no energy anyway why not use it? It'd conflict with the other Elementalist spamming but it could still have a spot on the bar (probably spec more into Protection Prayers if using it though).

For the PvE skills a possibility is Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom, which would help Ether Renewal as well as Breath of the Great Dwarf. Otherwise Ebon Battle Standard of Courage is always good, as is Mindbender helping with Heal Party spam. Aura of Restoration would be necessary if running Infuse Health; Zealot's Fire might help to get some damage down. Either of them would be good since this bar does have relatively few enchantments otherwise.

And finally for maintained enchantments you could go ahead and run Mending - weak skill yes, but it does counter the weakness of the build against degen. That said, Heal Party + Breath of the Great Dwarf should suffice, so perhaps Purifying Veil / Holy Veil would be better. Yet another alternative would be to spec 8 points into Protection Prayers and keep Protective Bond on yourself, but since both Elementalists have Protective Spirit this is probably not necessary. Life Bond is possible as well: 4 Life Bonds for both Elementalists, which covers the main drawback of using Life Bond in the first place (that you cannot cast it on yourself).

This build lacks self-heals, but with the other Elementalist carrying Infuse it shouldn't be too big a problem: just put Protective Spirit on yourself, spam, and wait for Infuse.

There are no lack of alternatives for skills to use; if nothing else just bring Vital Blessing and maintain it. It's just that relative to the core skills on the bar, all the other alternatives seem very lacking.

Tyla · Aug 28, 2008, 10:25 AM // 10:25

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Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

edit: Tyla, wanding shit to death in HM doesn't work. I've tried.

Oh, I know. I just personally find the extra damage is helpful anyway, and it's something to do when you casting is unneccesary. Who cares how little it is, you might aswell take it if it's free as far as I'm concerned, even if it's a measily 1.

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Originally Posted by Moloch

Tyla. You're wrong. Take a step back. Relax.

You have painted yourself into a corner where you defend wanding enemies in hard mode PvE as opposed to keeping important prots maintained on recharge on your entire party.

Maybe wanding does have a minimalist effect in PvE, but you don't always need the prots in the first place and just use them when needed.

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You have painted yourself into a corner where you defend wanding enemies in hard mode PvE to "increase DPS" while you claim there is no benefit in maintaining GDW on recharge to increase your physicals' damage by an armor ignoring +20.

Chill.

I didn't claim there is no benefit to maintaining GDW on recharge, what I did claim was that I'd put it on a different person. As far as wanding DPS goes you may not be offering much but it's not like everyone needs the prots 100% of the time either. Please stop saying that I am saying GDW has no benefit when I clearly am not making that claim at all.

daze · Aug 28, 2008, 10:37 AM // 10:37

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Originally Posted by Tyla

As far as wanding DPS goes you may not be offering much but it's not like everyone needs the prots 100% of the time either.

It seems like constant prots are taking a "better safe than sorry" route. which sounds perfectly feasible especially when energy management is a non-issue..
So in all reality, it sounds like there the only reason not to is "there is no reason to" that is on the verge of a paradox because the only reason to is "there is no reason not to"
And you are arguing it. this is a very amusing thread.

Tyla · Aug 28, 2008, 10:50 AM // 10:50

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Originally Posted by daze

It seems like constant prots are taking a "better safe than sorry" route. which sounds perfectly feasible especially when energy management is a non-issue..
So in all reality, it sounds like there the only reason not to is "there is no reason to" that is on the verge of a paradox because the only reason to is "there is no reason not to"
And you are arguing it. this is a very amusing thread.

Well whatever, I'd rather wand for (even incredibly small) damage instead of use prots that don't really need to be there. And if I really wanted, I could kick something for a PvE skill dealing more direct damage or EBSoH instead.

Tearz1993 · Aug 28, 2008, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Personally, I think that the Ether Renewal eles aren't amazing healers / protters, but can be used as a great support character with passive defense like [Aegis], EBSoH, GDW, and [ward against melee]

Khasar · Aug 28, 2008, 06:09 PM // 18:09

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Originally Posted by daze

So in all reality, it sounds like there the only reason not to is "there is no reason to" that is on the verge of a paradox because the only reason to is "there is no reason not to"
And you are arguing it.

Rofl.

daze wins this thread.

Abedeus · Aug 28, 2008, 06:17 PM // 18:17

I think we are talking about PvE, where Daze is almost non-existent.

DarkSpirit · Aug 28, 2008, 06:42 PM // 18:42

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Who cares how much damage it's doing? It's still doing additional damage.

You're contributing an extra ~15 DPS, and the more damage that is contributed, the faster things die. Wanding inbetween needed casts to contribute to the damage dealt.

Wanding in HM is so insignificant that I am honestly surprised you even brought it up, and keep defending wanding to be better than spamming pre-prots in an infinite energy build.

All it takes is one of my pre-prots to work once and it would beat ALL the time that you have invested to wand (i.e. "tickle") HM monsters to death.

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Yet if you do not make these mistakes the extra energy is not needed. You don't need infinite energy at all.

Like I said, it doesn't matter if it is not needed. If you, personally, do not need something doesn't mean it is considered "bad". That is the difference.

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Why would you need your entire team being pre-protted?

Maybe because we are humans and we do make mistakes sometimes? Furthermore if I can gain life+energy everytime I pre-prot, why not? Why is it considered bad?

Just because I dont NEED infinite energy at all times, doesn't mean infinite energy is BAD. I dont need to wand too, so by your definition wanding is also bad.

In Summary: time invested to Pre-Prot is ALOT MORE USEFUL THAN time invested to tickle HM monsters to death by wanding

Snow Bunny · Aug 28, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Take 2 monks, an Imbagon, an orders, and 4 physicals.

There's no need for some GDW spamming ele when you have it on the necro.

DarkSpirit, stop arguing with Tyla and argue with me instead.

I'll help you understand why this Ele is unnecessary

daze · Aug 28, 2008, 07:14 PM // 19:14

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Originally Posted by Abedeus

I think we are talking about PvE, where Daze is almost non-existent.

hey! i exist in PvE

DarkSpirit · Aug 28, 2008, 08:21 PM // 20:21

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Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

DarkSpirit, stop arguing with Tyla and argue with me instead.

I'll help you understand why this Ele is unnecessary

Where did I say spamming is necessary? Is everyone in your guild agreeing that spamming pre-protects is bad because wand attacking is better than pre-protecting? Why such a big emphasis on wand damage all of a sudden?

My impression of TAM just dropped a notch...You are risking your guild's reputation on this?