Curse

Perfected Shadow · Aug 27, 2008, 04:08 AM // 04:08

If you're running maintained enchants you need to spam. I don't see the harm in having Vital Blessing on everyone. I don't see the harm in spamming since the energy constraint is eliminated.

Tyla · Aug 27, 2008, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Spamming is still unneccesary.

You don't need to be casting 24/7 at all, even with infinite energy. The only time, as you say, is with the bonds.

Jeydra · Aug 27, 2008, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Honestly, that doesn't even matter most of the time, because this is PvE, not PvP, and monsters don't instantly run into the backlines to Rend you when there are enchanted targets right in their face. You can cast Spirit Bond every 2.25 seconds into eternity, and probably have a couple Prot Spirits up as well; pre-protted melee will suck down a majority of the enchantment removal that you'll run into. It's only against mobs with *massive* amounts of deep removal (several Rends, Lingerings, Gazes) that you're at risk of being stripped. Unless you're pulling multiple mobs at once, you should never be getting rended.

Lol yeah, I was thinking just how well this build would do if ER worked as it does in PvP. It'd probably wreck places like RA where the counters don't exist, but against any good opponent the Elementalist will work well for 2 minutes and then find all his skills Diverted and / or ER interrupted or removed. Against bad opponents (or PvE monsters) it's no big deal. Throughout all the times I've used ER the only time I lost it was against Chiblains, in a situation when my party had mistakenly overaggroed and we were trying to pull back (a weak point of the ER build, since if you don't cast you're not restoring energy [crucial if you're also maintaining 8 Vital Blessings] and health).

Quote:

I don't understand. You need 3+1 Air to get a 2 spell Glyph. 12 ES / 12 Prot / 3 Air is a spec. You also only need 11+2 ES and 11 Prot (the last point in each gives you little). What could you possibly spend points on besides the Glyph that's worth more?

The second cast doesn't just make the skill so much better on the off cast (10s recharge = 2 casts per ER). It also lets you cast the Glyph, then cast another spell (Prot Spirit, Party Heal, Infuse) BEFORE casting the Ether Renewal while still getting the benefit. Reducing the time when you can't cast defensively from 3.5 seconds to 1.75 seconds is HUGE. It's the best 6 attributes points you can spend.

You're right. Before I tried out your variant I'd given no thought to getting 4 in Air Magic (at most, I just figured I can't get to 4 Air while keeping 12/12 Energy Storage / Protection Prayers, so no point). After I tried it it's superior; the ability to cast another spell instead of ER after Glyph of Swiftness is priceless. It's either drop Protection Prayers one point or Energy Storage one point - I'll have to playtest and see.

Quote:

I do think that Breath of the Great Dwarf is something you should definitely run on the bar; one of the big knocks on the build is how it doesn't heal, but if you ride the glyph you can cast Breath every 11 seconds in addition to everything else you're doing. It's basically 2/3 of an LoD with no attribute spec, no time cost, and boosts your energy like everything else.

I just tried out Breath of the Great Dwarf and it's a great skill except for the cooldown - even if you back it with Glyph of Swiftness, the cooldown is still atrociously long. At my Deldrimor title (9) the heal is 59 HP, which is also rather pathetic compared to stuff like Heal Party with Healer's Boon and the associated 2-second recharge. If multiple people start taking serious damage you can't cope very well, although with the amount of Prot you can throw out this shouldn't happen often. Finally, Breath of the Great Dwarf means you're down one enchantment to use on yourself. It's not critical, but it does slow down the speed at which you replenish health after an Infuse. I find when I ran your bar that I spam a lot less. Not necessarily a bad thing, but with enough spam there's always ~6 enchantments on myself and the health gain after an Infuse is much faster.

That said, it's too early to conclude, because I tried Breath of the Great Dwarf as the only backline in an 8-man team trying to clear Selve in Slaver's Exile.

I think the weakness of the bar at healing means you cannot run two such Elementalists as backline; you need a second Monk with WoH (unless you have 8 Elementalists all maintaining Protective Bond on themselves, using Ether Renewal - I don't know how effective that would be).

Quote:

Nope. I prefer to fool around. PvE isn't serious enough.

This is as strong a point as not having all campaigns.

Quote:

Spamming is still unneccesary.

You don't need to be casting 24/7 at all, even with infinite energy. The only time, as you say, is with the bonds.

Buddy, if this is your problem with the ER bar then run ER and don't spam. Problem solved.

kazjun · Aug 27, 2008, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

You need Divine Favour for most Monk heals to be good? What?

You don't go for /Mo for pure healing, you go for /Mo for healing and protting. Healing 11, Prot 10 and Soul Reaping 10+1+1.

If it's a /mo compared to /rit it is. Most /mo heals are conditional in some way to hit about 100hp, most rit heals are about 100 with the only condition being that a spirit is nearby. Which is something you can control rather than needing your team to be hexed/poisoned/shatterbait. You can easily hit 150hp heals without an elite.

That's for pure healing though. You wouldn't really take a N/Rt for prot. Though that new xinrae's wep is quite nice. If you wanted to go heal AND prot you'd just take a monk.

upier · Aug 27, 2008, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Spamming is just bad.

Spamming bad skills is bad because you are using bad skills.
Spamming good skills if your build can deal with the requirements isn't bad.
AP the overpowered PvE skills.
You spam them. You have the energy and the skills are beyond strong. If you aren't using them - you are wasted party material.
DS under FGJ!.
I'd LOVE it if my Koosy would spam it!

Spamming Flare is bad because Flare is bad.
And then there are things that can be spammed and aren't bad.

Edit:
Too early to remember that SY isn't FGJ!. :S

DarkSpirit · Aug 27, 2008, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Spamming is still unneccesary.

You don't need to be casting 24/7 at all, even with infinite energy. The only time, as you say, is with the bonds.

Yes, now I agree with you that spamming may not be always necessary, but that doesn't mean it is bad.

You dont need a million dollars to survive, but having it is still not a bad thing.

Chthon · Aug 28, 2008, 01:20 AM // 01:20

On the topic of spamming.

Generally, speaking, spamming has 3 costs:
1. The far and away largest cost is energy.
2. Putting a crucial spell on recharge when you didn't need to can be a cost if you turn out to need it later.
3. Cast/aftercast time is a cost if you later need to cast something on-the-spot and can't because you're stuck in an unimportant spam cast.

The offsetting benefit is, of course, you get your spell's effect (even if you don't particularly need it).

In the E.Renewal prot case, the costs are almost entirely eliminated. You gain energy for spamming, so that's not an issue. All of you spells have a pretty quick recharge, so you're not likely to find yourself with your key spells on recharge when you need them. And, all of your spells have short cast times, making it unlikely you'll miss the cast time. Moreover, since you'll be spamming heavy prot, the odds of a situation requiring immediate response go down the more you spam.

On the benefit side, the heavy prots are relatively sticky, especially PS, so you're probably going to stop through spamming at least some damage every now and then that you would have wanted to pre-prot but missed if you weren't spamming.

I really cannot see any good reason NOT to spam with one of these suckers. Spam. Spam. Spam. Spam. Spam. Spam to your heart's delight. Spam GDW when it's available; and spam heavy prot when it's not.

Tyla · Aug 28, 2008, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

If it's a /mo compared to /rit it is. Most /mo heals are conditional in some way to hit about 100hp, most rit heals are about 100 with the only condition being that a spirit is nearby. Which is something you can control rather than needing your team to be hexed/poisoned/shatterbait. You can easily hit 150hp heals without an elite.

Word of Healing has no requirement to hit it's primary heal.

Patient Spirit only requires you to wait 2 seconds, but you can also pre-patient.

You do understand that spirits are dead in like 1 hit from your common HM monster, though right?

Quote:

That's for pure healing though. You wouldn't really take a N/Rt for prot. Though that new xinrae's wep is quite nice. If you wanted to go heal AND prot you'd just take a monk.

And who said you can't hybrid on your N/Mo? The only tradeoff is Divine Favour bonus for infinite energy.

As for spamming, you don't need the skills all the time. Just use it when needed. There are only a few exceptions for spamming.

Jeydra · Aug 28, 2008, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

And who said you can't hybrid on your N/Mo? The only tradeoff is Divine Favour bonus for infinite energy.

If you still claim Soul Reaping provides infinite energy you have not appreciated just how powerful Ether Renewal is at providing energy. Soul Reaping provides nowhere near the energy Ether Renewal can, period.

As for spamming, give me one good reason why spamming is to be avoided. You can say it's not needed. Doesn't mean it's something to be avoided. As written above, you don't need a million dollars to survive, but neither does it mean you should avoid cashing in that lottery ticket. If you say there are only a few exceptions for spamming, then let me say right now that Ether Renewal is one of the exceptions when spamming is great.

Let me say as well that I seriously doubt you've ever played an Ether Renewal build, and you should go try one before saying more. Also, if you cannot come up with a reason why spamming is not good then please refrain from condemning spamming.

Tyla · Aug 28, 2008, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you still claim Soul Reaping provides infinite energy you have not appreciated just how powerful Ether Renewal is at providing energy. Soul Reaping provides nowhere near the energy Ether Renewal can, period.

I am not comparing the power of Soul Reaping to Ether Renewal, I am stating that if people wanted infinite energy before why didn't they use Necros?

Quote:

As for spamming, give me one good reason why spamming is to be avoided. You can say it's not needed. Doesn't mean it's something to be avoided. As written above, you don't need a million dollars to survive, but neither does it mean you should avoid cashing in that lottery ticket. If you say there are only a few exceptions for spamming, then let me say right now that Ether Renewal is one of the exceptions when spamming is great.

How so? If I have a million pounds, dollars or whatever, I wouldn't use it all as soon as I possibly would but save it as I always do because I don't need to use that money at all and I only use things when needed. I would cash that lottery ticket in, but I wouldn't use the money straight away.

People don't need prots all the time and I could add even the most minimalist of damage through autoattacking.

Quote:

Let me say as well that I seriously doubt you've ever played an Ether Renewal build, and you should go try one before saying more. Also, if you cannot come up with a reason why spamming is not good then please refrain from condemning spamming.

I have. You don't need the skills all the time.

On your common 600/smite farm, you can now spam Spirit Bond on recharge since the bug fix. I still don't hit it on recharge and use it when I need to.

In terms of your ER Prot hybrid or whatever, you can still help out in the damage department by autoattacking aswell. People don't need the prots all the time and being spammed on them at all.

DarkSpirit · Aug 28, 2008, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

If I have a million pounds, dollars or whatever, I wouldn't use it all as soon as I possibly would but save it as I always do because I don't need to use that money at all and I only use things when needed. I would cash that lottery ticket in, but I wouldn't use the money straight away.

People don't need prots all the time and I could add even the most minimalist of damage through autoattacking.

And even if you dont need a million dollars I am sure you wont turn it down if someone offers them to you for free. You would not regard it as a bad thing even if you dont really need it.

In an infinite energy build, there is no need to save. The more you use, the more energy you have. How can this be a bad thing really? Even if you dont necessarily need so much energy all the time.

Tyla · Aug 28, 2008, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And even if you dont need a million dollars I am sure you wont turn it down if someone offers them to you for free. You would not regard it as a bad thing even if you dont really need it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

If I have a million pounds, dollars or whatever, I wouldn't use it all as soon as I possibly would but save it as I always do because I don't need to use that money at all and I only use things when needed. I would cash that lottery ticket in, but I wouldn't use the money straight away.

Quote:

In an infinite energy build, there is no need to save. The more you use, the more energy you have. How can this be a bad thing really? Even if you dont necessarily need so much energy all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

People don't need prots all the time and I could add even the most minimalist of damage through autoattacking.

Why did you just scim through my post, and why did I have to quote myself from the post right above your own?

Jeydra · Aug 28, 2008, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

I am not comparing the power of Soul Reaping to Ether Renewal, I am stating that if people wanted infinite energy before why didn't they use Necros?

If you have played the ER bar before you know as well as me the answer to this question. It's because Soul Reaping does not provide infinite energy, while Ether Renewal does, and that is the crucial difference that makes ER Elementalist healers superior to Necros.

Quote:

How so? If I have a million pounds, dollars or whatever, I wouldn't use it all as soon as I possibly would but save it as I always do because I don't need to use that money at all and I only use things when needed. I would cash that lottery ticket in, but I wouldn't use the money straight away.

People don't need prots all the time and I could add even the most minimalist of damage through autoattacking.

So what's your reason that spamming is something to be avoided? If your reason is that you can add some damage through wanding instead of spamming, I'll rest my case.

By the way don't drag the million-dollar example out of the context. Why would you cash the lottery ticket in? You don't need the money after all, do you?

Quote:

In terms of your ER Prot hybrid or whatever, you can still help out in the damage department by autoattacking aswell. People don't need the prots all the time and being spammed on them at all.

What about minions?

Tyla · Aug 28, 2008, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you have played the ER bar before you know as well as me the answer to this question. It's because Soul Reaping does not provide infinite energy, while Ether Renewal does, and that is the crucial difference that makes ER Elementalist healers superior to Necros.

In other words, you don't kill in PvE?

Quote:

So what's your reason that spamming is something to be avoided? If your reason is that you can add some damage through wanding instead of spamming, I'll rest my case.

More damage is more damage, and again you don't need the prots to be spammed unless you're running bonds.

Quote:

By the way don't drag the million-dollar example out of the context. Why would you cash the lottery ticket in? You don't need the money after all, do you?

I don't need a house either, do I?

It's nice to have the million pounds, dollars or whatever handy for when you need it.

Quote:

What about minions?

Yes, what about minions?

Jeydra · Aug 28, 2008, 03:11 AM // 03:11

What are you talking about killing PvE?

I said I'd rest my case regarding wanding and so I do.

You don't need a house either. So why are you living in one? Think about it. You just said you don't need to spam when running Ether Renewal, so why spam? No point. You don't need a house to survive either. So why own a house? No point. And of course if you say a million dollars is nice to have, bamph, prots are nice to have, even if they aren't needed. You just defeated your own logic.

What about minions? With ER you can freely Prot minions. And there're always minions to Prot, and by their nature minions need Protting, if the energy can be spared to Prot them.

Perfected Shadow · Aug 28, 2008, 03:15 AM // 03:15

How about we change 'spamming' to 'pre-protting on recharge'?

Win-win?
( =

the savage nornbear · Aug 28, 2008, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What are you talking about killing PvE?

I said I'd rest my case regarding wanding and so I do.

You don't need a house either. So why are you living in one? Think about it. You just said you don't need to spam when running Ether Renewal, so why spam? No point. You don't need a house to survive either. So why own a house? No point. And of course if you say a million dollars is nice to have, bamph, prots are nice to have, even if they aren't needed. You just defeated your own logic.

What about minions? With ER you can freely Prot minions. And there're always minions to Prot, and by their nature minions need Protting, if the energy can be spared to Prot them.

lulz

There's no point in spamming spells that do not need to be cast. Every little bit of damage helps. And with minions, necros do in fact have infinite energy. Unless some joker is using protection players on the bombs.

Tyla · Aug 28, 2008, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What are you talking about killing PvE?

No killing = no Soul Reaping bonus.

Quote:

You don't need a house either. So why are you living in one? Think about it. You just said you don't need to spam when running Ether Renewal, so why spam? No point. You don't need a house to survive either. So why own a house? No point. And of course if you say a million dollars is nice to have, bamph, prots are nice to have, even if they aren't needed. You just defeated your own logic.

Ah, but if you can get it you would take it wouldn't you?

I would take 1 million if I could do it easily simply because I can. For the same reason, I would also get a house. I would also take free damage through wanding and not spam my prots when they aren't needed too.

Also, I have 400 pounds in my bank currently. I'm not going to spend it because I don't need to, but that doesn't mean it won't come in handy sometimes or when something I want comes. I could live without a house and sleep on a bench, but then that would be the same as throwing away that 400 pounds. I wanted the house.

Quote:

What about minions? With ER you can freely Prot minions. And there're always minions to Prot, and by their nature minions need Protting, if the energy can be spared to Prot them.

Why would you want to prot minions? Death Nova deals armour ignoring damage, you would want the minions to die, not to mention there's no point in keeping them alive because there would be alot of corpses most of the time in PvE unless you're terribad and you might aswell let them die because the Necros have infinite energy for minions, and Death Nova makes them hurt. Alot.

Div · Aug 28, 2008, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Biggest problem is that most PUG leaders want a monk or rit to fill that healing spot, and won't trust eles to do it. So if you want a spot in a pug, you better be a damage ele.

Tearz1993 · Aug 28, 2008, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you have played the ER bar before you know as well as me the answer to this question. It's because Soul Reaping does not provide infinite energy, while Ether Renewal does, and that is the crucial difference that makes ER Elementalist healers superior to Necros.

Pretty sure he said before, meaning before the buff to Ether Renewal.

Quote:

So what's your reason that spamming is something to be avoided? If your reason is that you can add some damage through wanding instead of spamming, I'll rest my case.

He means you don't need to spam your skills to boost your energy, when instead you could do an extra 15 DPS or at least something instead of doing a 500 point heal to someone 30 under max.

Quote:

By the way don't drag the million-dollar example out of the context. Why would you cash the lottery ticket in? You don't need the money after all, do you?

He said you dont need to use all of the money at once. Instead of buying an expensive car, wouldn't it be better to save it for that expensive operation or some shit?