Curse

Moloch Vein · Aug 23, 2008, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Uh... you mean that Great Dwarf Weapon is useless?

Tyla · Aug 23, 2008, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Wait... I said Great Dwarf Weapon is useless?

Oh that's right, I didn't...

I'd rather increase defensive capability, as I would do with my Monk. I wouldn't spare one of my Monk's slots on that even if I could spam it on recharge.

Moloch Vein · Aug 23, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Then what _did_ you say?

What would you like to swap it out for that would be better?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I'd rather increase defensive capability, as I would do with my Monk. I wouldn't spare one of my Monk's slots on that even if I could spam it on recharge.

Tyla... I don't mean to be rude, but that's closed mind thinking. If you can fulfil something as useful as maintaining GDW on recharge, of course you should do so! Also the ER elementalist is by far the best suited for the job! You can have another character bringing the "defensive capability" you like.

As a side note, GDW _is_ a great defensive spell. Monsters don't generally hit you very hard when they're on their asses.

Tyla · Aug 23, 2008, 05:06 PM // 17:06

[glyph of swiftness][ether renewal][shield guardian][life bond][vital blessing][holy veil][purifying veil][blinding flash]

Windborne Speed for Blinding Flash if you want to aid kiting, more specifically in HM. I'd have someone else taking things like Great Dwarf Weapon.

If I'm running a mainly defensive build, I'll run something that can be used more defensively.

Moloch Vein · Aug 23, 2008, 05:10 PM // 17:10

That's by no means a bad bar, but it would be a lot stronger with GDW in place of BF. It would actually be better for defensive purposes as well as offensive. Also GDW requires no spec (unlike BF).

Tyla · Aug 23, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

I'd rather blind the target than take my chances, and have GDW on another person such as a Mind Blaster.

Moloch Vein · Aug 23, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

I wouldn't want to run with less than two copies of GDW if I had enough humans on my team. Anyway, I can't see the rationale behind claiming GDW would be "bad" or "useless" for an ER bar and advocate bringing Blinding Flash instead. Especially considering the ER can maintain it better than _any_ other character.

And I think you and I play pretty different styles, because I would never even consider running a Mind Blast elementalist in PvE. And, if I did, I would put the BF on _him_ because he's going to spend his most time targetting foes anyway.

(Would probably prefer scrapping BF altogether and slam Ash Blast on a hero bar, though. Or some other blinder.)

(If I'd bring an "offensive spell" on an ER I'd consider Maelstrom or Deep Freeze. Harsh, high cost, strong effect AoE snares/disables.)

Tyla · Aug 23, 2008, 05:26 PM // 17:26

I didn't claim that GDW is bad or useless on an ER bar, but I did claim that spot could be put to better use. There is more than those two skills in Air, that can be partywide blocks, partywide condition removal, and even speccing a little bit into Healing Prayers for Heal Party and whatnot or Breath of the Great Dwarf.

As for Blinding Flash, you can't spam it on recharge like you could pre-nerf of Mind Blast, and you should be able to with GDW now. Switching targets from allies to enemies is actually very easy though.

Moloch Vein · Aug 23, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I didn't claim that GDW is bad or useless on an ER bar, but I did claim that spot could be put to better use.

Well, that's my point... I don't think it can. A GDW used on recharge on spear chuckers (under no IAS, even) is going to produce 3.33 active weapons. Each will cause one knockdown every 3.75 seconds. That's about one KD every second. I don't think it's a close contest compared to Blinding Flash, which has a pretty mediocre effect if not combined with stuff like Extend Conditions.

And in the above calc... I don't even factor in IAS or the effect when used on, say, scythes.

Tyla · Aug 23, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Blind isn't a mediocre effect, it's complete melee shutdown.

And again, there is more than just Blinding Flash that can be used there.

Moloch Vein · Aug 23, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Blind isn't a mediocre effect, it's complete melee shutdown.

Of one target. Now, with me being a primary N, I guess you understand why I don't find this too impressive.

Anyway I think we've debated this enough now.

Chthon · Aug 23, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by eximiis

Imo ER heal ele can outheal the best monk in GW. There is no way a monk can heal that amount.

Infuse
Vigorous spirit
Holy veil
Purifying veil
Vital blessing
Glyph of swiftness
Aura of restoration
Ether renewal

Heals for TOO much health.
spam Aura and vigorous each time they recharge

No prot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I thought the health loss from Infuse comes after the heal from Vig Spirit and Aura?

It does. You end up reaching an equilibrium point around 350ish hp where the sac equals the amount you get healed. As long as you keep yourself covered with PS at all times, the risk is not too great because casting anything at all will heal you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElnoreVarda

[Great dwarf weapon][spirit bond][protective spirit][Shield guardian][reversal of fortune][glyph of swiftness][Ether renewal][aura of restoration]

I've run this and several similar builds. Without Infuse, you are counting on Shield Guardian for all of your red-bars-go-up. In 19 out of 20 battles, it works brilliantly. In the 20th, the monsters are going to just happen to hit the wrong people at the wrong time and the build will fail catastrophically.

With Infuse, I consider it viable, but not robust. You lack the hex and condition removal to keep your offense going. It's also somewhat irritating if there's an AI healer in your party, since they will constantly waste energy on healing you when you Infuse.

(Btw: I would swap RoF or SB for Infuse before I'd swap GoS.)

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To let the cat out of the bag quite a bit early, there is something that E.Renewal might be able to do that no other build could hope to, something that would make it clearly superior to other options. It might be able to maintain Protective Bond on the whole party. That would be near-invincibility.

I've been working on this, using the Jade Bros in HM T.Temple as my guinea pigs (since they are known by reputation as some of the nastiest mobs around). One ele alone fails spectacularly. I've had some success with two eles working in tandem, but the builds don't work reliably for every mob yet. (In easier areas, like Pongmei, you can vanquish without anyone's life dropping below 80%, ever.) I've got a few more ideas to try, but, unfortunately, my testing partner hasn't been around much lately.

DarkSpirit · Aug 23, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

[glyph of swiftness][ether renewal][shield guardian][life bond][vital blessing][holy veil][purifying veil][blinding flash]

How much would you spec to air on that bar?

The OP only needed 3+1 air to hit the 2 spell breakpoint on GoS, but that would only give 4s of blind on BF unless you take points away from ES or Prot.

snaek · Aug 23, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

Life Bond reduces damage after Prot Spirit.

wrong...
unless sumptin has changed

can u prove through testing?

prot also goes by enchantment order

jus the same with [life barrier] + [life bond]

[life barrier] must be cast before [life bond]
to be reduced, then redirected

aside from normal gw mechanics...
i have from personal experience, know that [protective spirit] reduces after redirection from [life bond]

i -hate- farming
but i have friends who r into it

so my friend who has a 130derv wanted to farm together
i thought i'd bond him so he can focus on more offense

but i was takin in -way- too much dmg than i was supposed to
simply for the fact that dmg was redirected before it was reduced

but this was a loong while back
so i dunno if it has changed or not

Ensign · Aug 23, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Infuse Health is better / more important than RoF or Shield Guardian, especially if you're running Aura of Restoration. Every spell heals you for 108 upon resolution, Infuse only has a drawback if you're under heavy fire.

I'm really unimpressed with Shield Guardian in these builds and don't know why it keeps popping up - it's worse than RoF, straight up, in PvE.

I don't know why you wouldn't run Great Dwarf Weapon on one of these guys. Breath of the Great Dwarf is also a good use of a skill slot, esp. if you run Glyph of Swiftness to hit it every 11s.

Spamming is weaker than aiming all your prots, even if you get a few fewer out there; if you're not being retarded nothing should ever get blown out, and the prots are hard enough that Alesia can keep up on mop-up duty.

I'm partial to:

Ether Renewal
Glyph of Swiftness
Aura of Restoration
Protective Spirit
Spirit Bond
Infuse Health
Great Dwarf Weapon
Breath of the Great Dwarf

11+2 Energy Storage
3+1 Air Magic
11 Protection Prayers
8 Healing Prayers

...and yes the template is beyond stupid in power; the only bad thing I can say about it is that it doesn't stack well with a Paragon.

Oh, and the reason most people don't run this sort of thing is probably very similar to the reasons why so many people run Defy Pain Warriors with Mending. You basically need to hand people a one button kill things skill ala Ursan Blessing to get them to run anything that isn't the stereotypical strategy from every other game remotely like this in the history of the world.

Tyla · Aug 23, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Holy hell, I thought Ensign quit...

Uh, welcome back I guess!

Ensign · Aug 23, 2008, 09:49 PM // 21:49

I log in 2-3 times a month. Without prize money and with the PvE flushed down the toilet there's not too much more to hold my interest. =p

Moloch Vein · Aug 24, 2008, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'm really unimpressed with Shield Guardian in these builds and don't know why it keeps popping up - it's worse than RoF, straight up, in PvE.

The main reason is that it's an enchantment on a 1 second recharge. It also heals for the same amount as RoF but it's nearby AoE. It's a very, very good spell for an ER protector monk.

Moloch Vein · Aug 24, 2008, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

It might be able to maintain Protective Bond on the whole party. That would be near-invincibility.

Are you testing this with player or hero elementalists?

Chthon · Aug 24, 2008, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Are you testing this with player or hero elementalists?

2 players. The heroes are too dumb to understand that they need to spam for energy. That's why I wasn't planning on saying anything until I had it working well enough to tackle the hardest areas with relative ease. Otherwise it wouldn't be worth investing 2 humans for the job. I only mentioned it now because this thread came up.

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Off-topic: Ensign, you should hang here around more.