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Feb 23, 2011, 02:27 PM // 14:27
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#61 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East Anglia, UK
Guild: Order of [Thay]
Profession: N/
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Quote:
Also, the main skills in a MoP build are AP, MoP, Rigor Mortis and "add aoe hex here". no PvE skills are required to make it function. |
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Feb 23, 2011, 03:40 PM // 15:40
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#62 |
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the midline
Profession: E/Mo
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I wouldn't trust a hero to run MoP though :P
MoP does undoubtedly more damage, there's no debate there. It's a damage multiplier. 336Damage/mob just by 8 people spearing, which kills everything in 2 hits (1 with whirlwind attack). That's not even including Minion bombers or minionmasters, which would be 420 to 462 per volley (no awaken the blood). That's not physway, that's 1 Minionbomber/Minionmaster. My point was that mesmers also do more damage than eles and have better support. which leads us back to the original point of the thread reiterated time and again for the past 3 years, which is eles suck at damage in HM, whichever way you slice it. Last edited by LifeInfusion; Feb 23, 2011 at 04:15 PM // 16:15.. |
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Feb 23, 2011, 03:49 PM // 15:49
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#63 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East Anglia, UK
Guild: Order of [Thay]
Profession: N/
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Actually I meant to mention up there, that cleaning your own team rather than interrupting the adjacent mobs is more useful, and of course seeing them dead.
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Feb 23, 2011, 08:34 PM // 20:34
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#64 | ||||||||||||
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2006
Profession: N/
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512 = Searing Flames DPS without cracked armor @ 17 spec. So the rangers are going to need about 120 DPS each to make the SF eles. If the Ele's do have cracked armor, the rangers need 224 DPS each to match the SF's DPS of 731. Quote:
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1) The mob dies before anything gets ripped off. 2) The mob rips off Fire Attunement when it's about to recharge anyways. 3) The mob can't get through enough of the covers. Quote:
Sorry I had to break your post down quote by quote. I hate doing this because it's really asinine but I feel like there is a lot you are missing in my posts, indicated by me needed to repeat the same thing 3 times in this one. Not trying to be a jerk, just trying to get you to understand, that's all. |
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Feb 23, 2011, 11:54 PM // 23:54
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#65 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
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Quote:
Math with so many variables and what ifs is silly unless you're willing to write a PhD thesis on it or something. I'm done until you post a screenshot with times. Last edited by Jeydra; Feb 23, 2011 at 11:57 PM // 23:57.. |
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Feb 24, 2011, 01:16 AM // 01:16
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#66 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2006
Profession: N/
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(6 Triggers from the Rangers + 5 Triggers from EVA + 1 Trigger from the Player) X 42 = 504 damage per enemy. Looks like they are walkin' away from this one!
"I'm done until you post a screenshot with times." How many times do I have to tell you that this isn't going to mean anything? |
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Feb 24, 2011, 03:04 AM // 03:04
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#67 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Quote:
Instead of going into a 2 page essays of calculation...It would be better to just go with statistics instead. Once eles are the ones setting (or at least coming close to) records everywhere, I'll stop claiming that their damage suck. By the way...even IF Searing Flames is good damage (which it is not)...everything else still sucks. The most you can proof is that they should nerf Searing Flames and then do a blanket buff of all elementalist skills. What next? Are you going to do a 3 page essay of calculation that some random earth skill is good damage when hitting 10 snared enemies with cracked armor now? Afterall, Dervs got a buff simply because other classes is using scythes and paras are getting looked at simply because their 1 super powerful build is too boring. And smite monks are getting looked at because being sought after by everybody to heal isn't enough. Last edited by UnChosen; Feb 24, 2011 at 03:10 AM // 03:10.. |
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Feb 24, 2011, 03:52 AM // 03:52
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#68 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2006
Profession: N/
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@UnChosen:
No, not deliberate. Turns out Searing Flames is a lot easier to calculate, resulting in fewer errors. Can you not see how much more math it takes for MoP? How many times did I give MoP the advantage? For the longest time I: a) counted 6 mobs standing together for MoP opposed to SF's 5. b) completely omitted the after cast for the MoP. Still: a) The EVA's DPS is highballed. Go calculated it yourself. I used a base scale of 100 armor, which is nearly the minimum for Hardmode AND considered nearly half of it's overall lifetime damage as armor ignoring. SURPRISE! b) The SF is still hitting 5 targets, compared to the massively higher AoE range. c) Allowed a Dual Shot to be added in to compensate for cracked armor despite the fact that the former is never seen anymore and the later is extremely common. I have constantly given the MoP the advantage. You can take your accusations elsewhere. What skill is going to beat MoP for records? DWG with title buffs? Keystone before "BUH!" nerf? Realistically, none. I've said this is an unfair comparison from the start. The most I can hope to prove is to use Searing Flames because Ele's aren't getting a buff. Why do Earth Spells need a snare? They are snares, so no, I would do a 3 page calculation about Earth Spells /w Cracked Armor. Then I would remind everyone that a Mesmer is going to do that job better and that they should just stick with Searing Flames when using an Ele. And btw, I use Physway hero parties; I'm pro MoP. |
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Feb 24, 2011, 04:29 AM // 04:29
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#69 | ||
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Quote:
For you information, enchant removal is more plentiful in the game in comparison to hex removals. "Casting between" fights is not a good enough excuse because it slows the party down. Most group wait 0 second after a fight unless the monk needs energy. Other people bring paragons so that they can "Fall Back!" rush to the next group one after another. Some start rushing to the next group before the current group is complete dead! There's no way they're waiting for an ele to cast even one attunement, let alone attunement + other stuff. The only Earth Spell that has real "snare" ability (I'm assuming you mean knockdowns) is churning earth. Everything else is either one shot for pathetics damage (Earthquake), or mobs can run out. Either way, none of them are spammable AoE and none of them causes burning so their damage sucks even more than Searing Flames. Also, your Searing Flames calculation are for full burning duration hitting 5 mobs evenly. I've already done a calculation before proving that any single target damage dealer/spiker would reduce the DPS dramatically. You response was to retort using MoP as an example....so what? There is a reason why MoP is only used in SPEED CLEARS but less frequently everywhere else...Outside of elite areas no one is going to slowly ball up 5 monsters for your great "200 DPS" Searing Flames. Everywhere else mobs usually comes in groups of 5 (casters and melees) so you "hitting 5 mobs" argument just went out the window. At that point necros still has minions, melee still do the same DPS, and rits still has spirits. The fact of the matter is...Elemental damages are even more horrible once you stop having this obsession with comparing Searing Flames with MoP. Everyone else, stop feeding the troll and change the topic/calculation to NORMAL areas please. When he basically said Quote:
Using his logic every necro skill should be nerfed except MoP and Dervs buff should be reversed because they had eternal aura. All sin skills should be removed other than those needed for Shadow Form... Last edited by UnChosen; Feb 24, 2011 at 04:37 AM // 04:37.. |
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Feb 24, 2011, 06:10 AM // 06:10
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#70 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2006
Profession: N/
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GoL can be cast in between SF casts, as can AoR or Ele Lord, and even Glowing Gaze as well. The Attunement is all that needs concern, and it's negligible @ 2 seconds every other mob. Heck, cast it mid-fight, it's only going to slow DPS minimally (I calculated SF @ every 3 seconds, if you bothered to read) if your rotation is smart.
Why is Attunement removal such a huge deal? The Ele can still output DPS. If MoP or AP is removed, the impact is much, much larger. Most of the mobs that are a concern in this game are packing both Enchant Removal and Hex Removal, so who cares how rare it is (any of the unimportant mobs are going to die so fast they won't have a chance at either)? According to estimated party builds based on the Meta, both the Necro's and the Ele's parties are going to have multiple enchantments and hexes flying around, so removal of either the Attunement or the Hex is rare at best; unless we are talking about the Necro's Physway, which leaves it more open for removal via the physical (a.k.a. hex-lacking) nature of the party. If you have an SF Ele on your Physway I apologize and I'll call Balthazar immediately. The Earth Spells comment was more or less poking fun at your previous statement of the same nature. You asked what kind of calculation I'd do, so I responded. Yea, Earth Spells, along with Wind and Water, are worse than Fire for PvE (though there seems to be a growing case for Invoke lightning, this is irrelevant at this second). This is a known fact and I'm agreeing. What single target damage dealer isn't going to drop the DPS of any AoE build? It's one less foe; that's common sense. You don't feel that it would drop the damage of an Illusion Mesmer or DWG Rit in the same way it would a Searing Flames Ele? Also, you do understand that Searing Flames is "nearby" range and doesn't necessarily need anything to be balled, right? "Everywhere else mobs usually comes in groups of 5 (casters and melees) so you "hitting 5 mobs" argument just went out the window. At that point necros still has minions, melee still do the same DPS, and rits still has spirits." Not following your point on this one. Are you implying that I'm going to be hitting fewer targets? If so, you're correct, however, once again, wouldn't this effect any AoE build? What makes Searing Flames so much more terrible when the mobs split up? It's an even multiplier. What victory are you talking about? Didn't I just tell you that I'm pro Physway? Why would I want Searing Flames to "win"? I'm being something called "objective". It's how you lay down facts and get a "map" of the issues and what needs to be done. If SF did 400 DPS, I'd be on the other side of the debate with MoP. Sometimes, there isn't a win/lose. It's just not that black and white, or in this case, red and puke green. I'm not following your last sentence either, but I feel it may have been typed out of spite and as such, I will ignore it. Edit: And just to clarify because I don't feel I may have been as descriptive as needed the last time I stated it, I am only saying that Elementalists currently have an option to put out good DPS in a party. I compared SF to MoP, a very famously powerful AoE skill, to show this because MoP seems to be the damage level that Elementalists feel entitled to. If I just ran in and said "Hey guys! Use Searing Flames on your Ele's. It's good for damage like MoP!", I would've had no credibility and probably would've been mocked due to the current hatred and negative image of Searing Flames. Turns out, SF is much better compared to the Mesmer/Ritualist levels of damage because NOTHING else in this game works at the magnitude that MoP does. As it turns out, thanks to some number crunching from LifeInfusion, it seems the Ele does need a damage boost to match Mesmer levels, or the Mesmer needs damage toned down to reach Ele levels (while the Ele is tweaked to have damage based more around SF's current DPS from any build). This decision would also be based on Ritualist and Monk (post smite rework) damage to determine what is normal. At the least, the only thing that's certain at the moment is that Elementalists need more builds that push at least SF levels of damage. This doesn't mean they can't use Searing Flames in the meantime as the best possible means of pumping "usable" levels of damage while keeping their fingers crossed. Last edited by Kaida the Heartless; Feb 24, 2011 at 06:24 AM // 06:24.. |
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Feb 24, 2011, 10:30 AM // 10:30
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#71 | ||||||
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Quote:
What if the enchants runs out/recharged right when a fight ends? This happens more often than not. Also...there are something called Heroes and Henchmen. Last I checked these are kind of common in non-elite areas. Quote:
Its also far easier to cover hex in comparison to cover enchant. Stacking hexes would still contribute to killing the mobs faster....but you can't expect people to stack enchants just to protect the eles' attunements. Quote:
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The "victory" I'm talking about is this non-stop calculation comparison between Searing Flames and MoP... I'll say it a final time....calculations and reality does not always match. So many people who use Eles as a main character already tried the Searing Flames build many times, you are hardly the only one...it just doesn't work as well as expected. Searing Flames is just one of those skills where its effectiveness drops way too easily. I mean seriously, if my finger gets tired for one second or I took my hands away from the keyboard to scratch I would lose one cast of SF and the DPS would take a nosedive. Quote:
Last edited by UnChosen; Feb 24, 2011 at 10:38 AM // 10:38.. |
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Feb 24, 2011, 11:50 AM // 11:50
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#72 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
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Quote:
SF doesn't even do the most damage out of all Elementalist builds lol. Last edited by Jeydra; Feb 24, 2011 at 12:10 PM // 12:10.. |
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Feb 24, 2011, 08:39 PM // 20:39
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#73 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2006
Profession: N/
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@UnChosen:
With MoP, the only other spells you are realistically going to be casting are ones to ensure the success of the spike, like Suffering or Rigor Mortis. During the spike, you want to spear the enemies, as it contributes more to DPS than any spell will. Other than that, you will find yourself gunning enemies down with AP, "YMLAD!", and "FH!". The Enchantment can end at bad times, but there is a 15-27 second window of overlap, not to mention 40/40 sets. Still not a huge deal, as parties in non-elite areas tend to move out of sync anyways. What did you mean with your H/H comment? "Meta" doesn't necessarily refer to speedclear style of play. Me/X Keystone Signet/Illusion, N/X Aura of the Lich/Discord, and E/Mo Prot/Infuse are all examples of Meta that aren't necessarily present in XWay. While Hexes have a more offensive nature, the only ones in current play that are going to be sticking are Panic and Necro blanket hexes, with the occasional hex removal baited from Illusion spells. It's not too much to ask the backline in your party to throw a cover on you at the beginning of each mob. In non-elite areas they are going to be a bit bored anyways (and in many elite ones as well). I'll go ahead and give MoP the edge on this one, since you don't have to ask for anything to be done for your covers (unless you're in Physway, but that's another story). Ele's can pack Invoke Lightning if it's really a big deal. I haven't done any math on it, but apparently it's pretty high on the "single" (in quotes) target DPS category. There's also some sort of Chain Lightning + AP + "YMLAD!" + "FH!" build or so I've heard. Besides, even with the high single target DPS guy in your party, AoE is still king in PvE. That would simply be the role that the Ele is filling because they do it easily and well. I'd love to get some calculations for other nonSC "Meta" builds going, just to see where the Ele stands. Doesn't always have to be vs. MoP, that's just where I started since that's where the comparison started. At least this way, assuming the Dev team comes across the thread, they will have some numbers in addition to "gameplay" to solidify the basis that Ele's need a little love. Guess I'll have to level an Ele. My Hero Ele doesn't even have energy problems, and Sousuke loves to Glyph --> AoR. Surpass would've been the word I was looking for. Thank you. @Jeydra: If actions speak louder than words, why is the pen mightier than the sword? YES. Didn't think I'd ever be able to use that. :P Also, please show us this "most damage" Elementalist build. |
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Feb 24, 2011, 11:35 PM // 23:35
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#74 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East Anglia, UK
Guild: Order of [Thay]
Profession: N/
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Quote:
You cast the spells that ensure: 1. Foe doesn't Kite. 2.Mob doesn't strip MoP. And finally once you've killed the adjacent foes, then AP and Finish the bastard. |
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Feb 25, 2011, 04:34 AM // 04:34
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#75 | |
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Unbridled Enthusiasm!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: EST
Guild: DPR
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Quote:
__________________
~"Serenity now.... Insanity later"~
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Feb 25, 2011, 06:09 AM // 06:09
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#76 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2006
Profession: N/
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I prefer to baby a single character. Necro is what I play (PvE), for the most part. Guess I should level one and show ya'll how it's done. :P
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Feb 25, 2011, 06:16 AM // 06:16
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#77 |
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Unbridled Enthusiasm!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: EST
Guild: DPR
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So what you are saying is that all of your points are based on numbers and 0 ele playing exp? That sorta nullifies the validity of all your posts. It makes sense now why you are arguing for ele dmg....you don't know any better. Most thought eles would be decent at dmg until we actually played them and experienced how sub-par they actually are.
__________________
~"Serenity now.... Insanity later"~
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Feb 25, 2011, 07:21 AM // 07:21
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#78 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2006
Profession: N/
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Say what you will, the numbers still stand. Ele's may not be quite on par, but they are certainly still a viable party option. I've used 'em with great success in some of the hardest locations in the game, and that's with Hero AI and no PvE skills.
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Feb 25, 2011, 11:51 AM // 11:51
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#79 | ||
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
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Quote:
12 + 1 + 3 = 16 Fire Magic 12 + 3 = 15 Energy Storage Arcane Echo Arcane Mimicry Savannah Heat [E] Intensity Ebon Battle Standard of Honor Mark of Rodgort Snow Storm Glyph of Elemental Power So I have an ally casting Weaken Armour as well as holding Echo for me, allowing me to cast 3 Savannah Heats in a row. Each Savannah Heat does 360 damage to AL 60 target over 5s, or about 254.5 damage to AL 80 targets over 5s. I have 3 of them, so I deal 753.5 damage. I hit 5 targets, so I deal 3767.5 damage. Then I have Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, which does 15 * 5 * 5 = 375 per Savannah Heat and another 15 * 5 * 5 = 375 for Snow Storm, contributing 375 * 4 = 1500 damage. Snow Storm does 141 * 5 = 705 damage. Intensity does 81 * 4 = 324 damage in an AoE because I'm pro and use it directly on the last tick of Savannah Heat, and of course Mark of Rodgort does 14 * 5 DPS for 72 DPS. So I have total 3767.5 + 1500 + 705 + 324 damage / 10s + 72 DPS = 701.65 DPS. ****, I am good. Quote:
Last edited by Jeydra; Feb 25, 2011 at 12:11 PM // 12:11.. |
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Feb 25, 2011, 12:30 PM // 12:30
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#80 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Scotland
Guild: Fuzzy Physics Institute
Profession: E/
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Face facts - no matter how much number crunching is done, in practical gameplay, if ele damage was so good, we'd see some sort of "shitterflames" group builds as the meta for steamrolling HM/elite areas.
We don't. QED. |
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