Curse

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 21, 2011, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

What part of a 2 second recharge (Searing Flames) vs. a 60 second/30 second/20 second recharge (AP/EVAS/MoP) makes you think that the former is effected less by disruption? What about Blind/Hex Removal/Stupid AI? Searing Flames doesn't have to worry about any of that. MoP Bomb is much more effected by disruption than Searing Flames in both the number of things that can disrupt it and the magnitude of which it'll be effected.

This entire thread can be distilled down to this one paragraph. When Mark of Pain and related skills work, they work beatifully, and entire groups can be killed almost instantly. However there are plenty of things that can go wrong and drop your damage output to minimal levels. The Searing Flames spam is very hard to disrupt and therefore is much more reliable.

So in places without a lot of melee hate, you can go physway with Mark of Pain etc. and it works great. The advantage of caster teams is that they work anywhere. As a glaring example of this problem, go see how many people run physical heavy teams in the Domain of Anguish. You can't get around this problem by saying "bring Foul Feast, bring hex removal", or other such nonsense... the physical hate is severe, it will overload your hex and condition removal, and physical damage is therefore unreliable. If Manlyway/Physway does not work everywhere then I think it fails the test despite its merits.

Jeydra · Feb 21, 2011, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

This entire thread can be distilled down to this one paragraph. When Mark of Pain and related skills work, they work beatifully, and entire groups can be killed almost instantly. However there are plenty of things that can go wrong and drop your damage output to minimal levels. The Searing Flames spam is very hard to disrupt and therefore is much more reliable.

So in places without a lot of melee hate, you can go physway with Mark of Pain etc. and it works great. The advantage of caster teams is that they work anywhere. As a glaring example of this problem, go see how many people run physical heavy teams in the Domain of Anguish. You can't get around this problem by saying "bring Foul Feast, bring hex removal", or other such nonsense... the physical hate is severe, it will overload your hex and condition removal, and physical damage is therefore unreliable. If Manlyway/Physway does not work everywhere then I think it fails the test despite its merits.

That's what you think. AP damage is extremely reliable. I lose AP in less than 1 in 10 fights. 1 in 20 might be more appropriate, or perhaps even less (averaged over a long time). On a per-cast basis, it might even be 1 in 50.

Searing Flames damage might be more reliable in a sense, but then so is wanding damage. And I hope you're not arguing that wanding damage is better than AP damage.

You don't have to run MoP with AP you know. Elementalists have their own AP bars. I've run Chain Lightning + Lightning Orb with AP since forever, and I'm very pleased with the bar. The damage is high, mostly armour-ignoring and reliable.

Your arguments about miss and blind and whatever all became obsolete with the change to Asuran Scan by the way.

Essence Snow · Feb 21, 2011, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

It's a 200 DPS skill. Why NOT spend 4 skills to support it?

Because 200dps in 5 skills is sub-par.

Quote:

Mark of Pain is supported by Assassin's Promise, EVA, YMLAD, and FH. What's your point? (And yes, YMLAD and FH are necessary to support AP, which is support for MoP.)

Tbh I use AoS moreso than AP

Quote:

I'll spell this out one at a time:
Cracked Armor: If enemies ball for Mark of Pain, it's safe to say they ball for Weaken Armor. They have the same range. It's got a 5 second recharge. You can cover a MoB quite quickly.

Perfect circumstance to bring AoS over AP

Quote:

Interrupts: You interrupted a skill that does 35ish percent of it's damage through burning that recharges in 2 seconds. What did you accomplish here? Let AP or MoP get interrupted. I can assure you the effects are much more devastating.

Your 1st cast is not going to be the one that get interrupted given the situations we are talking about...basically if SF gets interrupted you'll be lossing 15e which hurts.

Quote:

Immune to Burning: Destroyers and... Ruby Djinn? Both of these are in very select areas of the game. I'd say Hex Breaker does about the same for MoP Bomb. Regardless, you don't run MoP Bomb vs Hex Breaker and you don't run SF against Destroyers.
Added Armor vs. Fire: Rangers. Just as big of an issue for MoP via stances. Rigor Mortis takes from DPS.

All of HM has enough armor vs elemental dmg for it to be an issue.

Quote:

Condition Removal: Extinguish and Cautery Signet. Anything else is going to be too slow. See also: 2 second recharge time.
Enchant Stripping: Still able to maintain about 100 Dps. Also, where is your Aegis? And no, blowing through 2 covers isn't common.

Ascan made all melee hate irrelevant, where one is not using spikes...while using spikes it's irrelevant anyway as u only need 1 cast.which is not the case with SF.

Quote:

Why are you focusing on Warriors? You should be aiming for the group of casters. Any Warriors that run by are merely a stroke of good luck.

Your not focusing on warriors, but u cannot avoid them. Once the casters are dead (which will happen a lot b4 an ele casting all it prep skills gets to cast) you still need to kill those wars.....Idk y you think they are avoidable.

Quote:

Yea, all the support skills that can be cast in between every 4 fights. I don't know what you are putting on your Ele heroes, but mine never lag behind.

Well when u run ele heros with a ele char ofc they wont be behind b/c your ele char is slow as well. I stopped using ele heros a long time ago. There is no point in using them now (other than nostalgia or ER) when necro, rit, and mesmer heros are vastly superior.

Quote:

Finally, I'm not saying the world is flat. I'm telling a bunch of non-believers the world is round. You are clearly nitpicking the bottom of the barrel. Where is your math? You seemed just fine insulting mine. Quit trying to compare yourself to Mark of Pain and you'll realize Ele's aren't too bad.

We have all played this game long enough to believe the world was flat (ie eles doing decent dmg in hm). Over the course of playing this game we have learned it is round (ie eles are not good for hm dmg) My main char is an ele with over 5k hours (10k+ on account) and GWAMM....I'm pretty sure I have played the profession enough to experience its pros and cons. Even though the math looks fine and dandy, it simply does not work that way in the game. You should know this by now. Testing in the isle of the nameless =/= to testing in HM PvE. You should know this by now.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 21, 2011, 09:34 PM // 21:34

@unchosen: It's not like it's severely dropping DPS when several have negligible times or can be precast. Also, many of them help the rest of the team, upping overall damage of the party.

And what changes targets being killed while MoP is activating? MoP loses just as much DPS. What if the Warrior pulls 2 targets off the main ball. What if the Minions spread out the enemy line too much? What if someone else triggers any AoE, like a Dervish and breaks the "Adjacent" ball. Bad things can happen either way. Searing Flames has a huge area of effect and can easily still hit many targets even if they aren't a perfect ball.

I've said this a million times as well: Mark of Pain is the highest damage AoE skill in the game. Searing Flames is still holding it's own against it, but that seems to be irrelevant. Try comparing it to the newly buffed Mesmer. I think you'll find the comparison a bit more even and fair. Why you think the Ele should be doing damage that takes an entire team to put out is beyond me.

And all of the calculations here we're done on a 10 second basis, which is about the duration of a fight.

@Jeydra (sorry LifeInfusion!):
45 Seconds on AP. My apologies.

Yes, the first 10 seconds of MoP Bomb, under perfect conditions with 6 targets balled without aftercast does 219 DPS.

See also:
"Edit:
Did some more math with Searing Flames @ 17 spec with Glowing Gaze added (which is more practical):
Searing Flames @17 Spec: 162.1 DPS
Searing Flames @17 Spec /w Cracked Armor: 202.2 DPS"

And my arguement has never been that Searing Flames is better than MoP Bomb. It's been that Searing Flames, an Elementalist skill, is holding it's own against the strongest AoE in the game, and that Elementalists aren't as gimped as the entire forum is screaming.

The 10 second "spike" period is to allow the mob to reset. You can spike 2 foes if you want. Your DPS is going to be terrible.

AP+YMLAD+FH isn't 173 DPS if you're killing targets. Naturally, there's going to be damage spilling over that isn't needed.

I need to tan, so I'm gonna continue to stand in Savannah Heat while pumping out absurd amounts of unregulated DPS with my Elementalists, because that's totally what I'm trying to say here. Then, I will turn around and hi-five Xandra and her spirits of Shelter and Union.

- Why is a Necro carrying any more heals than MBaS, SL, and PwK? My heroes don't know how to use skills effectively and have constant downtime anyways. Besides, Hexes are fire and forget, remember?
- You are KD'ing and entire mob with YMLAD to protect AP? Whisper sweet secrets in my ear pls.
- Yea, you are going to run MoP against a 7 second recharge, precast Hexbreaker that's perfectly Micro'ed. Good luck and enjoy your 2 hour clear.
- Because I'm not casting Weaken Armor. The Necro is.
- Any target that loses AP or MoP completely shuts down DPS. I'd rather lose a tiny chunk of DPS that reapplied in 2 seconds than my entire nuke.
- Strip Enchant and Chillblains are the only removals that will punch through that much coverage. If you are really worried, get that useless E/Mo on the team to spam covers. He's not contributing to DPS. Incubi are an issue for everyone, not just the Elementalists: Blind/KD for your EVA, KD for you, and due to the nature of Shock, they don't like to stay balled. And besides, where are you minions to absorb the enchant removal?

I already sacrifice nearly as many skills for Searing Flames, so yes, I would. 300 DPS? I'd run 3.

I'm not wasting my time doing Thom/Rand with Searing Flames again. Slaver's has nothing for me. I already waste enough of my time typing these posts and reiterating these same points.

@Essence Snow:
So.. what PvE skill did you remove to add in Asuran Scan?

Show me 5 skills on a single bar that will match 200 DPS.
65 Clumsiness
61 Wandering Eye
61 Ineptitude
33 Signet of Clumsiness
???
220 DPS @ 15 Illusion, 9 Fast Cast, cast immediately upon recharge on a group of 5 foes. No time is calculated for energy management, which is dependent on the actions of foes to gain anything.

Closest I could come up with. Searing Flames is on par.

Also, I run a Necro. Always.

maxxfury · Feb 21, 2011, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

@LifeInfusion:
45 Seconds on AP. My apologies.

Not wanting to sound like a s*** as ive not scoured every post as there is a lot of guff, but you do know AP recharges its self right?... and not just the other skills like oath shot does....its just the wording there doesnt imply this..*shrugs*

Mashiyu · Feb 21, 2011, 11:38 PM // 23:38

tbh, I'm impressed that you showed that a MoP nekro alone can do more damage than a SF ele. I always thought MoP needs a team build to be effective.

Now if you are in a group, it's nearly impossible that no one else than you triggers MoP. If you have a war, sin, ranger and/or derv in your team they would increase YOUR dps (in addition to their own damage). And no, they don't run VoS, 100b, splinter barrage only to trigger MoP, but because they are effective on their own.

So basically you should see the 162/202 dps as the maximum you get out of an ele whereas the 219 dps are the absolute minimum of MoP (assuming your 5 or 6 monster ball).

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 22, 2011, 12:07 AM // 00:07

@Mashiyu: Correct. MoP's damage potential is nearly limitless through synergy. This is why it is NOT a good candidate to be compared to Searing Flames (or anything else really). Comparing something like an Illusion Mesmer against Searing Flames would be much more accurate. I merely did this to show that the Ele is capable of standing against a solo version of (arguably) the most powerful skill in the game, something that most other classes cannot do.

@Maxx: The recharge was taken into account when the AP spike failed to grab a recharge. Trust me, I run Necro almost exclusively and have been running Physway since Barbs was 12 damage.

maxxfury · Feb 22, 2011, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

@Maxx: The recharge was taken into account when the AP spike failed to grab a recharge. Trust me, I run Necro almost exclusively and have been running Physway since Barbs was 12 damage.

Loud and clear ty

Sometimes clarification is good yano? :P

Tho ill have to say, my "ap failure rate" is probably 1 in 20.likely even less... tho i run ap on my Mes FAR more than on a necro (that lives on my alt account actually ^) and its usually my OWN fault not that of the enemies hex breakers/removals/team kill too slow..

I have trouble directly comparing Ap-mop, SF and Illu spam. 1 is direct, 1 is leveraged synergy and the last is reactive... all have different "proc's" so to speak.. unless its PURELY the yellow numbers outputted..
then how close is the breakdown of a 'solo' unsuported AP-mop'er's damage output? (NO team sysnergy physical procs..) to the sf elem? lots of numbers to read thru with a migraine coming on

annyyy way.. good day sir!

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 22, 2011, 01:22 AM // 01:22

MoP pulls ahead of SF for initial damage and keeps right behind it after the first big spike. It also has the best synergy/damage with a team, hands down, against SF and Illu (and possibly every other build in the game).

Searing Flames will put out the damage consistently and more reliably, but the least spikey. Moderately difficult to disrupt, given the multiple angles you have to shut it down from.

Illusion Spam, though I didn't go into hardcore calculations, will probably be right behind Searing Flames in damage, but much farther ahead in terms of Utility (interrupts and blind). Illusion DPS is also the hardest to disrupt of the 3.

Life Bringing · Feb 22, 2011, 01:36 AM // 01:36

If one other person on your team has the ability to press t->space, MoP is superior to SF. If your team is completely incompetent, SF wins.

Oh, you're also forgetting that MoP is a 1 second cast and nothing more, leaving you open to supplement your damage with defile/desecrate/etc.

maxxfury · Feb 22, 2011, 02:04 AM // 02:04

So just your spear and Evas (or multiple via ap) wont theoretically out dps an sf elem in the math department?...

hmm..

Life Bringing · Feb 22, 2011, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

So just your spear and Evas (or multiple via ap) wont theoretically out dps an sf elem in the math department?...

hmm..

ups forgot evas. Just you autoattacking comes out slightly behind, but evas would put it ahead.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 22, 2011, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

If one other person on your team has the ability to press t->space, MoP is superior to SF. If your team is completely incompetent, SF wins.

Oh, you're also forgetting that MoP is a 1 second cast and nothing more, leaving you open to supplement your damage with defile/desecrate/etc.

I have mentioned the fact that MoP synergizes with a team better than any other skill in the game. This is a known fact. This is also why I ran some Illusion Mesmer numbers really quick, since it is more on par with the role of Searing Flames. They come out about the same. I originally compared MoP to Searing Flames just to show you how well it ranked up in comparison.

If you would look at the calculations, you would notice that the player casting MoP was chucking a spear, increasing MoP's damage. There is no time to cast Defile/Desecrate unless you plan to hit for more than 420 damage.

@Maxx:
It's really too close to give a definitive answer on that. Between the randomness of encounters down to the fact that SF still has a Rodgort's Invo + Intensity opening that I didn't factor in, and the fact that I didn't factor aftercast for the MoP, it's just too close.

What does put MoP ahead for certain is the fact that you can ramp up the damage very quickly with teammates. No other class can hope to match that sort of damage, but the Ele holds up quite well regardless, which is the only point I've been trying to make this whole time.

In fact, the real big issue is that Searing Flames is one of the only builds that will output those levels of damage.

If you are going to run an Ele, make sure it's Searing Flames and you have Cracked Armor present somewhere in the build.

LifeInfusion · Feb 22, 2011, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Illusion (especially keystone) is better than Searing flames. You can run 4 copies of strength of honor and the only shutdown is rust,Icy Prism, Primal Echoes, and ignorance.

12+1+1 fast cast = breakpoint for 6 procs on keystone
10+1 Inspiration (breakpoint for maintaining mantra of inscriptions 20s)
8 Smiting

Keystone signet = 15 base recharge
signet of clumsiness = 8 base recharge
Unnatural Signet = 10 base recharge
Trytophan/Signet of disruption = 15 base recharge
Signet of Corruption/Leech Signet/Castigation signet = 20 base recharge
mantra of inscriptions (-32% at 10 vs -36% recharge at 13... so 4%, which is 1s at 20 base recharge)
Symbolic Celerity
Strength of honor x 4 (+16)

if you're willing to take a major, superior rune to get the same HP as the searing flames ele, there's no contest since you can pump smiting up further.

12+1+1 fast cast
8+3 Inspiration (breakpoint for maintaining mantra of inscriptions 20s)
10 Smiting

Keystone signet = 15 base recharge
signet of clumsiness = 8 base recharge
Unnatural Signet = 10 base recharge
Trytophan/Signet of disruption = 15 base recharge
Signet of Corruption/Leech Signet/Castigation signet = 20 base recharge
mantra of inscriptions
Symbolic Celerity
Strength of honor x 4 (+18)

if you don't want to do that you could use something else like Balthazar's spirit or Succor to boost other people. Purge signet/hexeater signet too.

Also you quoted me for something Jeydra said... I didn't post in this thread after the first 2 posts in here (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...94&postcount=6 , http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...2&postcount=11).

Essence Snow · Feb 22, 2011, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

@Essence Snow:
So.. what PvE skill did you remove to add in Asuran Scan?

None..in most cases it isn't needed, but u can use it in melee hate areas soo..gloom if needed.

Quote:

Show me 5 skills on a single bar that will match 200 DPS.
65 Clumsiness
61 Wandering Eye
61 Ineptitude
33 Signet of Clumsiness
???
220 DPS @ 15 Illusion, 9 Fast Cast, cast immediately upon recharge on a group of 5 foes. No time is calculated for energy management, which is dependent on the actions of foes to gain anything.

Closest I could come up with. Searing Flames is on par.

Also, I run a Necro. Always.

DwG says hello!

Tbh idc ...imma stop arguing b/c this is not going anywhere. I'll finish by saying 1 thing....There is a reason everyone is telling you the same thing.

byteme! · Feb 22, 2011, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Correct me if I'm wrong. We're comparing the damage from "1" Searing Flames with "4" other skills to support it to just "MoP" by itself? I think I'll take the MoP and fill the rest of my bar with more damage or AP etc...

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 22, 2011, 07:36 AM // 07:36

@LifeInfusion: Fixed the misquote. Sorry. I'll do math later. Brain is fried atm.

@Essence Snow: You have "YMLAD!", "FH!", and EVA on your bar. What are you taking off to put on Asuran Scan so that your EVA still won't hit them?

Guess I'll have to check DWG for DPS as well. How often are the spikes done?

@Byteme: Seriously, how are you missing that? I don't think Asuran Scan would even help you see at this point, so I'll just answer.
We are comparing:
Searing Flames, Elemental Lord, Fire Attunement, Glowing Gaze, Glyph of Lesser Energy
vs.
Mark of Pain, Assassin's Promise, Ebon Vanguard Assassin, "You Move Like a Dwarf!", "Finish Him!"

Edit:
Ugh. Just realized the amount of math I'm gonna need to do for your builds Life. I think you're secretly trying to kill me and the posts are just a ruse. Also, how did you want me to add SoH? I mean, that alone is dependent on too many things to calculate.

HigherMinion · Feb 22, 2011, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Let's set the average mob size at 8 foes adjacent range with 200AL. gogo maths.

Mouse at Large · Feb 22, 2011, 09:33 AM // 09:33

I love this debate

However, I like to simplify things. My premise is that the basic ele philosophy is high risk = high reward. Let me explain...

High risk means long cast times/high energy cost/long recharge. I know there are exceptions, but I'm relating this to DoTAoE which is the ele's distinguishing skill type. The risk comes in the shape of enchant strips, interrupts etc.

High reward means that for the high risk, you get commensurate reward in terms of damage to mobs.

HM has altered the equation. As I see it high risk no longer gives high reward. Scatter and HM armour see to that.

All that the general ele community is asking for is a well considered rebalancing. The recent change to intensity was a badly missed opportunity. Leaving aside the fact that I'd tolerate having to dedicate a skill slot to Intensity rather than getting a Dervish style complete makeover (not going to happen), if something like:-

Intensity - Skill - for 5 seconds plus 2 seconds for every point in Energy Storage, your spells do holy/shadow damage (my preference

) or dark/chaos damage or + 15 to 25 bonus damage or some degree of bonus AP. Cost 10e, recharge 20secs.

I don't claim the above is perfect, but it would redress the balance to a degree.

HigherMinion · Feb 22, 2011, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

Intensity - Skill - for 5 seconds plus 2 seconds for every point in Energy Storage, your spells do holy/dark/chaos damage or + 15 to 25 bonus damage or some degree of bonus AP. Cost 10e, recharge 20secs.

I don't claim the above is perfect, but it would redress the balance to a degree.

That would be a very nice change indeed. Armour ignoring bonuses; they might do that and lower all elemental damage skills a bit.