Curse

UnChosen · Feb 19, 2011, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I loled. That's pretty spot on for what you need for a DOT AOE. You can get by weaken armor by bringing it on a necro.

1 Fire Attunement
2 Aura of Restoration <--1 energy isn't a make or break
3 Glyph of Lesser Energy
4 Weaken Armor <-- necro hero
5 Elemental Lord / EBSoH / Too bad BuH is nerfed
6 Intensity
7 Deep Freeze
8 Rez <-- optional

which leaves
1 Attune
2 GOLE
3 Deep Freeze
4 Ele Lord/EBSoH
5 Snow storm or whatever DOT
6 FH or other?
7 ?
8 ?

I always bring Aura of Restoration not for the energy, but as a cover enchant because enchant strips in PvE area like...everywhere.

Mouse at Large · Feb 20, 2011, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Face facts - no matter how you cut it, ele HM damage is not on a par with physicals and most armour ignoring damage. We can tie ourselves into knots inventing gimmick style theoretical team builds that nobody is going to run in the game.

Bottom line is Anet have shown they either a) they don't care for eles HM utility or b) they are too incompetent to implement a balanced fix.

Either way, they seem to be showing a complete disregard for what a significant part of their player base has been telling them

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 20, 2011, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Not Manlyway? I see a balled up mob on a (Human) Warrior with the words "Knowledge is power!" over there head. Name another meta Warrior build that uses Air of Superiority. That is a version of Manlyway, or more specifically, an instance of what is known as a "Manly" spike. You are using over 3 characters to produce that absurd amount of DPS. I've already stated that the balancing of a class shouldn't be around these specific, gimmicky instances because they are just that: specific and gimmicky instances. If you want to participate in high end content like a Necromancer, you will be E/Mo bonding. That is your role. You, unlike many other classes now, still have a role to play in these XWay builds. Be grateful.

Now, if you want to compare just the Necromancer and just the Elementalist, my points still stand. You (or a single Necromancer) will NOT achieve the numbers in that screenshot because it is the combination of the efforts of several players.

Searing Flames will do a high amount of consistent damage, unless of course you keep ignoring my posts, in which case you are immune to being taught and are doomed to fail repeatedly in the same fashion until someone else fixes your problems (at which point you'll probably just scream that they didn't do it properly anyways).

Ultimately, if you are pissed at the fact that you cannot adapt and listen to the insight other players are providing here, roll a Necromancer or Mesmer if you want Necromancer or Mesmer damage. I'm done trying to teach people that can't even finish reading a post before they post baseless claims.

HigherMinion · Feb 20, 2011, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Not Manlyway? I see a balled up mob on a (Human) Warrior with the words "Knowledge is power!" over there head. Name another meta Warrior build that uses Air of Superiority. That is a version of Manlyway, or more specifically, an instance of what is known as a "Manly" spike. You are using over 3 characters to produce that absurd amount of DPS. I've already stated that the balancing of a class shouldn't be around these specific, gimmicky instances because they are just that: specific and gimmicky instances. If you want to participate in high end content like a Necromancer, you will be E/Mo bonding. That is your role. You, unlike many other classes now, still have a role to play in these XWay builds. Be grateful.

Now, if you want to compare just the Necromancer and just the Elementalist, my points still stand. You (or a single Necromancer) will NOT achieve the numbers in that screenshot because it is the combination of the efforts of several players.

Searing Flames will do a high amount of consistent damage, unless of course you keep ignoring my posts, in which case you are immune to being taught and are doomed to fail repeatedly in the same fashion until someone else fixes your problems (at which point you'll probably just scream that they didn't do it properly anyways).

Ultimately, if you are pissed at the fact that you cannot adapt and listen to the insight other players are providing here, roll a Necromancer or Mesmer if you want Necromancer or Mesmer damage. I'm done trying to teach people that can't even finish reading a post before they post baseless claims.

You can't compare Searing Flames to Mark of Pain, it's just absurd.
The war runs AoS to recharge Hundred Blades, why does that make it a tank or a manly spike team? And stop calling it "manly". there's nothing descriptive about it and there's nothing manly about hiding behind a perma tank.

You're the one posting a baseless claim, or don't seem to understand what you've been told in this thread.

Eles don't just bond with ER. If you use Burning Speed you're bad. They are used for support, and Anet seem to favour physicals for main damage source (see pvp) while casters are midline support. Elementalist goes here. Or they can ER.

No one has told Anet anything but "QQ damage so low, pls fix" it's not a fix that's required because it's intended.

Searing Flames will do consistent LOW damage.

LifeInfusion · Feb 20, 2011, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Searing flames is 14DPS from burning and maybe +53DPS if you spam on recharge (106) on 60 armor (or 80 with cracked). Even if you run 36%/36% you still have aftercast. Realistically you will do more like 14DPS from burning and 22.5-37.1DPS from casting.

MoP is a guaranteed 42+DPS (x number of physicals) ... how does that compare?

If you use a spear on your necro, then it's 28+DPS just from you (counting spear attack rate). Toss in ebon vanguard sin and you get 70DPS. You don't need a whole team for that.

I think the real point of contention would be the adjacent range of MoP vs Searing Flames' nearby range and the fact that 53DPS from Searing Flames is armor dependent.

Jeydra · Feb 20, 2011, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Yeah, and MoP takes a team of physical damage dealers to abuse properly. Oh, that AP+MoP+EVA build? Lets do some math!:

We'll say curses is at 16 spec like normal, and the target gets hit 5 times before scatter occurs. Thats 210 Adjacent AoE damage. We'll say 3 targets are hit (remember, your target isn't included). Thats 630 Damage. This happens in about 5 seconds for 126 DPS. Now, we also need "You Move Like a Dwarf!" and "Finish Him!" to make sure that our primary AP target doesn't move and gets killed to recharge MoP.

If the target is successfully killed in time:
Time to let enemies ball again (~5 seconds) + 5 second time to nuke: 63 DPS from MoP
Add DPS from other skills involved (YMLaD, EVA, FH): 63 DPS + 8 DPS (assuming max rank YMLaD) + 8 DPS (assuming max rank YMLaD) + 10 DPS (EVA) =
89 DPS

If the target is not killed in time (or just MoP with no AP):
Time to let enemies ball again is less than time for MoP to recharge, so new time is 30 seconds + 5 seconds to nuke: 18 DPS
Add DPS from other skills involved (YMLaD, EVA, FH): 18 DPS + 2.6 DPS (assuming max rank YMLaD) + 2.6 DPS (assuming max rank YMLaD) + 6 DPS (EVA) =
29.2 DPS

Thats 89 DPS average, assuming everything goes right (assassin attacks correct target/lives long enough, enemies stay balled for a decent moment, AP/EVA/MoP are not interrupted, AP isn't removed, target is killed in time for a recharge). The build drops to 29.2 DPS if any of the above occurs. Five skills, three of which are PvE, are required to achieve this!

Searing Flames, one cast in the middle of a mob hitting 5 foes is 70 armor ignoring DPS (14 DPS from burning x 5). You need Fire Attunement, Glyph of Lesser Energy, and I'll even add Elemental Lord or Aura of Restoration for the cover. Thats 4 skills, 1 of which MIGHT be a PvE skill, for a much easier 70 DPS.

And for those of you complaining that 2 seconds is too long to cast:
AP = 3/4 second + aftercast
Mark of Pain = 1 second
EVA = 1 second
Total = ~3 seconds for MoP nuke

Furthermore, you complain about bad damage because there are people in this thread suggesting things like Lightning Orb for use with Intensity.
Lightning Orb does 140 generous damage + (50% x 5 foes) = 490 damage
Rodgort's Invocation does 90 damage (x5 foes) + (50% x 5 foes) = 450 + 225 = 675 damage

No wonder your damage sucks. Removing the AoE aspect from a skill to get minimal max damage on your multiplier is pointless because you are ALREADY REMOVING THE AOE. Stick with Fire and Earth in PvE.

Searing Flames [E]
Rodgort's Invocation
Glowing Gaze
Fire Attunement
Elemental Lord [PvE]
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Intensity [PvE]
???

Run that.

I'm sceptical of your DPS calculations. YMLAD does not do 8 DPS; neither does FH do 8 DPS. EBVAS does way more than 10 DPS. Remember: all three are recharged by AP and all three will be used multiple times. It has been my experience as an Elementalist primary that I can quite often get three Vanguard Assassins onto the battlefield, and by extension that means 2-3 casts of YMLAD and FH each.

So that is about 80 * 5 (combining YMLAD and FH here) + 3 * 150 (estimate of damage for the Vanguard Sin here) = 850 damage. Add that to MoP's 630 damage and we get 1480 damage over 10 seconds for 148 DPS.

Targets hexed with AP die far more often than they do not. I'd put the ratio at at least 10 deaths to every one time when AP is removed / the target does not die before AP expires. I have no hard statistics; a ratio of 20 to 1 might be even more appropriate. In fact for some areas (most VQs, for example) I do not miss AP - ever. Note that because of EBVAS and YMLAD, the target is far more prone to dying than not (lots of KDs in play). I think you are seriously underestimating the power of AP.

Comparing Searing Flames, you might get 4 casts of Searing Flames in 10 seconds, together with one cast of Glowing Gaze (4 * 1.75 + 1 * 1.75, neglecting any time you need to cast GoLE).

The first cast of Searing Flames sets 5 enemies on fire for 7s - 14 * 5 * 7 = 490 damage.
The second cast of Searing Flames does about 60 damage (thanks to HM armour) = 300 damage.
Glowing Gaze does about 30 damage.
The third cast of Searing Flames does about 60 damage = 300 damage.
The fourth cast of Searing Flames comes after the 7s burning duration is over, and resets the 5 foes on fire = 14 * 5 * 3 (3 seconds only, since damage is calculated over 10s) = 210 damage.

Combined total = 1330 damage, still less than MoP.

Surprisingly scatter occurs for MoP but not for Searing Flames ... ?

By the way if you're arguing that AP might be removed / interrupted / target may not die etc then I'll bring up SF might be Power Blocked / Attunement might be removed / targets might be immune to burning etc. Attunement getting removed is the single biggest problem. Even with a cover, it's very possible to lose the Attunement (e.g. Strip Enchant, mobs with multiple copies of Shatter Enchant), and you don't have AP to recharge it. Searing Flames damage drops dramatically once targets start dying; YMLAD / FH / EBVAS all work perfectly still.

Anyway these calculations are all esoteric because all sorts of complications might occur. Targets hexed with MoP die, MoP can be cast again, foes might not be balled, etc. Still as a practical matter I find Searing Flames way inferior to AP calling for Elementalist primary. If you want to dispute that, I propose Selvetarm HM as a testbed. I'd say Forgewight, but considering the armour vs. Fire there, it wouldn't be fair. Try Selvetarm with Searing Flames, and post a screenshot here with /age. I'd prefer H/H, but anything will do.

I'll give your bar a try somewhere in PvE soon. Anything in particular you want with it (such as more Searing Flames elsewhere in the party, EBSoH in that last slot, etc)?

PS: Oh yeah and in your calculations MoP hits 3 targets but Searing Flames hits 5.
PPS: You should always - always - look at the DPS of the entire team as a whole, not as a part. There's nothing wrong with a Ritualist bringing Splinter Weapon or Ancestor's Rage. He needs someone / something to cast those on, and it's arguable whether or not he's the one dealing the damage, but so what? The team kills faster because of those skills, and that's what matters.
PPPS: Just noticed that I get 3 Sins on the battlefield, but that is over 15 seconds not 10. Whatever. I think calculations like these should simply take a back seat over practical tests. Go try Selve HM.
PPPPS: Lol now that I pay attention to it, EBVAS does way more than 150 damage per cast. Closer to 250, I would think, if the Sin gets to attack continuously.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 20, 2011, 04:19 AM // 04:19

@ kaida, these people are not listening to your wisdom although they should.

@ higher minion & TalanRoarer ...
Mark of Pain is a great skill, and you guys are probably among the best there are at Physway. Good for you! Now how is discussing warrior/MoP synergy in any way useful for elementalists or relevant to a discussion of Intensity? Seriously, move it to the necromancer forum.

@ everyone else... you're free to try physway builds in places like DoA, but Physicals get eaten alive in there. Caster damage is much more reliable and that is why all the current DoA speedclear teams use casters. There is more than one way to kill red dots, despite what some would have you believe.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 20, 2011, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

The war runs AoS to recharge Hundred Blades, why does that make it a tank or a manly spike team? And stop calling it "manly". there's nothing descriptive about it and there's nothing manly about hiding behind a perma tank...

Eles don't just bond with ER. If you use Burning Speed you're bad. They are used for support, and Anet seem to favour physicals for main damage source (see pvp) while casters are midline support. Elementalist goes here. Or they can ER...

Searing Flames will do consistent LOW damage.
Finally... Your an idiot. kthx.

Hundred Blades with MoP is a build setup that has been named "Manlyway" or a "Manly Spike". I didn't coin this term.

If you want to participate in high end content, you will bond with Ether Renewal and you will probably use Burning Speed. You replace the Monk like the Necro is replacing you in these instances. Deal with it.

Searing Flames does great damage. Where are your numbers saying it's low?
I think you also said:
"You're the one posting a baseless claim, or don't seem to understand what you've been told in this thread."

Oh well. Next.

@LifeInfusion:
Searing Flames is 14 DPS per target hit in burning damage alone. Searing Flames hits for 50 damage on a 100AL target at 15 Fire Mastery. It hits for 71 if they have Cracked Armor at the same mastery.
Searing Flames DPS where E is the number of enemies hit:
Without cracked armor:
(14xE)+([50xE]/3)=DPS, where 3 is the number of seconds it takes to recast.
With cracked armor:
(14xE)+([71xE]/3)=DPS, where 3 is the number of seconds it takes to recast.

Assuming 5 enemies are hit, which is pretty fair for the generous AoE it has:
Without cracked armor:
(14x5)+([50x5]/3)=(70)+(250/3)=153DPS
With cracked armor:
(14x5)+([71x5]/3)=(70)+(355/3)=188DPS

Keep in mind, that is @15 Fire Mastery, which should probably be closer to 17 given the nature of Elemental Lord. I also excluded Intensity for this calculation. Furthermore, an ele can apply approximately this pressure, unconditionally, indefinitely, with much greater ease than the following scenario:

Mark of Pain is slightly more difficult to calculate:
Mark of Pain: A damage of 42 to all adjacent @16 curses excluding the target being hit.
Ebon Vanguard Assassin: ~638 (average) damage over it's 15 second lifespan (assuming max rank) for an average of 42 DPS on a 60AL target. A 100AL target will cut this damage in half, excluding the Armor Ignoring bit (~295 Damage). The new damage rate is 466.5 damage (([638-295]/2)+295) over 15 seconds or 31 DPS. It strikes approximately 1 time per second.
"Finish Him!": A damage of 80 (assuming max rank) every 15 seconds (no Assassin's Promise, we'll get to that in a sec). 5.3 DPS.
"You Move Like A Dwarf!": A damage of 80 every 10 seconds (no AP, one sec, etc). 8 DPS.

First, I will calculate damage without AP, then I will estimate AP damage to the best of my ability (since it is dependent on the rate in which the main target is killed as well as scatter response).

MoP Chain without AP (30 sec recharge on EVA):
([(42xE)x?]+([(42xE)x(.6x?)]+(31/2)+[(80)x2]+[(80)x3])/30=DPS
([MoP Damage x Number of Enemies Hit]x? Seconds before Scatter @ 1 hit per second from EVA) + ([MoP Damage x Number of Enemies Hit]x.6hits per second with a spear x number of seconds before scatter) + EVA Damage/2 since its alive 15 seconds + FH Damage x 2 (in 30 sec) + YMLAD Damage x 3 (in 30 sec) all / 30 seconds=DPS

We will say 5 enemies are hit, and they scatter after 5 seconds (which we will use next). I believe these numbers are more than generous. Let me know if you do not agree with them. Remember, this is standard HM PvE, not Manlyway (or whatever you want to call it using whatever variant). This is a 1v1 comparison of the Ele and Necro.

([(42xE)x5]+([(42xE)x(.6x5)]+(31/2)+[(80)x2]+[(80)x3])/30=DPS
(1050+630+15.5+160+240)/30=DPS
2095.5/30=DPS
69.85=DPS

A DPS of 70 if the spike is done every 30 seconds, the most it can be done without AP due to EVA. Now, with Assassin's Promise:

We will assume the spike can be done every 10 seconds from the most Pro GW Player (totally me, btw) with everything going perfectly. I am highballing the crap out of this build. That's 5 seconds before scatter, 2 more seconds to kill your primary target, 3 more seconds to cast everything (AP, MoP, EVA), all while the monsters have grouped back up after they ran 5 seconds ago. We will also assume you are somehow hitting 5 targets again because, once again, we are assuming perfect conditions.

The changes next to the downtime are that AP takes 1 second to cast. This is 1 less attack you can make as the spear chucker for additional damage. You will also only get 1 cast of YMLAD and FH per spike (every 10 seconds). I have indicated the changes in bold.

([(42xE)x5]+([(42xE)x[(.6x5)-1]]+(31/2)+[(80)]+[(80)])/10=DPS
(1050+420+15.5+80+80)/10=DPS
1645.5/10=DPS
164.5=DPS

If you want to add the extra one or two EVAS that will be running around, add ~40 DPS. It is unlikely they will be attacking your MoP target.

IN SUMMARY:
Searing Flames @15 spec: 153 DPS
Searing Flames @15 spec /w Cracked Armor: 188 DPS
Mark of Pain @16 spec (etc): 70 DPS
Mark of Pain @16 spec (etc) /w AP: 164 DPS

All of the numbers are there for you to review. I even tested variables out on the Master of Damage and 100/60 AL targets. However, I am not a math wiz, so it is very likely (cough certain cough) these numbers will vary with actual gameplay. These are just some base numbers. Remember, these numbers are with Searing Flames alone. There's still plenty of leftover time in the rotation to add more damage. MoP doesn't have that.

Ultimately
Mark of Pain has the higher damage potential that is harder to execute consistently.
Searing Flames will more easily do a steadier stream of damage.

Mark of Pain damage is front loaded.
Searing Flames has the win for extended fights.

Mark of Pain uses all 3 PvE skills, with 3 open slots left over.
Searing Flames uses 1 PvE skill (Elemental Lord) with 4 open slots left over, 2 of which can be PvE skills.

and last but not least:

Mark of Pain massively surpasses Searing Flames with "Manlyway" (or whatever you want to call it) or other "XWay" teams.
Elementalists will likely never have this damage potential, as I don't think it's supposed to exist in the first place since it is the combination of 3 very fragile key builds. However, your place in "XWay" is still secure through E/Mo bondfusing. There are threads over on the Monk forums to discuss that. :P

@Jeydra:
I elaborated on my previous numbers in the post here. I hope they better explain what I was talking about in regards to certain skill DPS.

Your post definitely contains many important variables.
Glyph of Lesser and Glowing Gaze can be cast in between Searing Flames, so they don't effect DPS too much. I also decided scatter was a smaller issue for Searing Flames, given the broad area of the attack and the general pattern that enemies scatter in, not to mention how difficult it is to calculate that as a consistent number. There are fewer things that can be done to interrupt Searing Flames DPS (interrupts, removals, etc) when compared to MoP and AP. Even when these things do happen, they impact the overall DPS of Searing Flames less. MoP has a major advantage against rangers that I didn't account for (however, they often have stances, which means MoP can run into blocking issues as well).

TBH, I would use the last skill as Intensity for Rodgort's Invocation (don't forget to pre-glyph to improve DPS) or EBSoH for more damage and more team damage (can't forget about them). Also, it's a little more gimmicky (and noobish I admit) but I still find it entertaining from The Spearmen days; Pair Searing Flames with Arcane Echo and drop Rodgort's all together (replace with EBSoH).

@all:
In summation, Searing Flames, despite the HM disadvantage, is still a great option for dealing superior damage as an Elementalist. It just isn't delivered as nukishly and up front as MoP Bomb. Half the damage is invisible even. The numbers show it, so go use it. I think you'll be surprised.

Edit:
Did some more math with Searing Flames @ 17 spec with Glowing Gaze added (which is more practical):
Searing Flames @17 Spec: 162.1 DPS
Searing Flames @17 Spec /w Cracked Armor: 202.2 DPS

For anyone that cares.

LifeInfusion · Feb 20, 2011, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Searing Flames is 14 DPS per target hit in burning damage alone. Searing Flames hits for 50 damage on a 100AL target at 15 Fire Mastery. It hits for 71 if they have Cracked Armor at the same mastery.
Searing Flames DPS where E is the number of enemies hit:
Without cracked armor:
(14xE)+([50xE]/3)=DPS, where 3 is the number of seconds it takes to recast.
With cracked armor:
(14xE)+([71xE]/3)=DPS, where 3 is the number of seconds it takes to recast.

Assuming 5 enemies are hit, which is pretty fair for the generous AoE it has:
Without cracked armor:
(14x5)+([50x5]/3)=(70)+(250/3)=153DPS
With cracked armor:
(14x5)+([71x5]/3)=(70)+(355/3)=188DPS

The reason why I think your damage is inflated for Searing Flames is you don't count aftercast and the first cast does "14xE" only. 1 cast +0.75 aftercast+2 recharge

In reality it's SF (1s cast)--> 0.75s --> SF (1s cast) --> 0.75s --> SF... at best if you have Standard of Wisdom or something to reduce the 2 recharge.

Eles are more spikey and "reliable", but they do not do more damage. For example: in places with hex breaker, of course you won't use MoP.

Then again, if you're running MoP with no physicals, that's pretty much a strawman argument.

EDIT: also
From wiki

Quote:

The general formula is: (3*creature level+armor bonus). The armor bonus is 20 for Warriors and Paragons, 10 for Rangers, Assassins, and Dervishes. Also note that Warriors have +20 armor against physical damage and Rangers have +30 to elemental. Warriors and Paragons also may or may not wield shields. Shields seem to usually give +16 to armor, The general formula is: (3*creature level+armor bonus). The armor bonus is 20 for Warriors and Paragons, 10 for Rangers, Assassins, and Dervishes. Also note that Warriors have +20 armor against physical damage and Rangers have +30 to elemental. Warriors and Paragons also may or may not wield shields. Shields seem to usually give +16 to armor,

http://wiki.gtm.guildwars.com/wiki/G...s/Armor_rating

Mobs have excess of 100 sometimes, which means Searing Flames is going to be doing ~70% at best. (See Enchanted Weapons with their 136 armor)

In places like Slaver's, where mobs have Arcane Conundrum , enchant removal, concussion shot, magebane, and savage shot, this is goes out the window.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 20, 2011, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Yea, when I posted the SF calculations, I decided to draw 'em out and add Glowing Gaze, since it's a more practical situation. Also calc'ed em at 17 spec. New DPS's are edited in at the bottom. Still came out about the same given the +2 to Fire Attunement.

Edit: Agreed about the reliable (SF) vs higher potential (MoP).

Edit 2: I just realized that I didn't even account for after cast on the MoP. Oh well. :/

Edit 3: Warriors and Paragons are the only ones that are really going to add defense, right?
Lvl 30 Mobs x 3 = 90 AL, 90 + X Armor = Defense
Warriors and Paragons gain 36 (applicable) armor, leaving the two class types at 126 AL. Every other type, next to rangers, is going to be at 100 or less (90) if I am understanding that correctly.

Also, I can add a couple Mesmers in place of your couple physicals and still lay down a decent comparison. :P

Well, in places like that, many things go out the window. I think both builds are going to be hit pretty hard with that kind of mob diversity. We both should also probably stop editing our posts. :P

UnChosen · Feb 20, 2011, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Why are we taking into account hex removal or "needing physical" for MoP but not taking about how Searing Flame is completely useless if attunement gets stripped, requires the ele to stay in a spot spamming spell (any kiting or moving out of AoE reduces DPS), prone to get interrupted due to spamming...and so much more.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 20, 2011, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Why are we taking into account hex removal or "needing physical" for MoP but not taking about how Searing Flame is completely useless if attunement gets stripped, requires the ele to stay in a spot spamming spell (any kiting or moving out of AoE reduces DPS), prone to get interrupted due to spamming...and so much more.

casters can be shut down by only a handful of things.
knockdown
interrupts (includes daze)
skill disable

physical damage can be shut down by so many things that it's difficult to list them all. in other words, this argument fails hard... caster damage is MUCH more reliable, and the composition of DoA speedclear teams will confirm this.

physical shutdown:
knockdown
interrupts
skill disable
adrenaline denial (soothing images, etc)
energy denial (spirit shackles, quicksand, etc.)
reactive hexes (empathy, insidious, etc.)
miss hexes (blurred vision, reckless haste, etc)
snaring hexes (deep freeze, grasping earth, etc.)
wards (ward against melee, ward against foes)
kiting
blocking
blind
weakness
cripple

in addition, the bulk of physway's damage depends on a long-recharge hex that can simply be removed by the enemy, thus it is only reliable in places where hex removal is rare or nonexistent. In contrast, the caster teams can only be reliably shutdown by consistent mass knockdown or consistent interrupts (e.g. Panic). Needless to say most speedclear teams of past and present have been caster based. For those saying that Searing Flames can't possibly do good damage, can your memory really be that short? Searing Flames teams used to be the *only* way to clear DoA, back before Ursan came into play.

HigherMinion · Feb 20, 2011, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

casters can be shut down by only a handful of things.
knockdown
interrupts (includes daze)
skill disable

physical damage can be shut down by so many things that it's difficult to list them all. in other words, this argument fails hard... caster damage is MUCH more reliable, and the composition of DoA speedclear teams will confirm this.

physical shutdown:
knockdown
interrupts
skill disable
adrenaline denial (soothing images, etc)
energy denial (spirit shackles, quicksand, etc.)
reactive hexes (empathy, insidious, etc.)
miss hexes (blurred vision, reckless haste, etc)
snaring hexes (deep freeze, grasping earth, etc.)
wards (ward against melee, ward against foes)
kiting
blocking
blind
weakness
cripple

in addition, the bulk of physway's damage depends on a long-recharge hex that can simply be removed by the enemy, thus it is only reliable in places where hex removal is rare or nonexistent. In contrast, the caster teams can only be reliably shutdown by consistent mass knockdown or consistent interrupts (e.g. Panic). Needless to say most speedclear teams of past and present have been caster based. For those saying that Searing Flames can't possibly do good damage, can your memory really be that short? Searing Flames teams used to be the *only* way to clear DoA, back before Ursan came into play.

Basically, you have to know how to play properly and not just discharge a few spells to win.

Hex removal present? The MoP Nuker will have to cover his precious AP/MoP :O zomg hao he dodat?

Blind? Bring Foul Feast or Draw Conditions on Orders bar or a designated cleaner bar with Signet of Removal :O zomg hao he dodat?

KD spam? IaU. zomg hao he dodat?

Lots of hex snares?? Shadowstep. zomg hao he dodat?

Taking high damage from eles? lolsrs.

Outerworld · Feb 20, 2011, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

casters can be shut down by only a handful of things.
knockdown
interrupts (includes daze)
skill disable

physical damage can be shut down by so many things that it's difficult to list them all. in other words, this argument fails hard... caster damage is MUCH more reliable, and the composition of DoA speedclear teams will confirm this.

physical shutdown:
knockdown
interrupts
skill disable
adrenaline denial (soothing images, etc)
energy denial (spirit shackles, quicksand, etc.)
reactive hexes (empathy, insidious, etc.)
miss hexes (blurred vision, reckless haste, etc)
snaring hexes (deep freeze, grasping earth, etc.)
wards (ward against melee, ward against foes)
kiting
blocking
blind
weakness
cripple

in addition, the bulk of physway's damage depends on a long-recharge hex that can simply be removed by the enemy, thus it is only reliable in places where hex removal is rare or nonexistent. In contrast, the caster teams can only be reliably shutdown by consistent mass knockdown or consistent interrupts (e.g. Panic). Needless to say most speedclear teams of past and present have been caster based. For those saying that Searing Flames can't possibly do good damage, can your memory really be that short? Searing Flames teams used to be the *only* way to clear DoA, back before Ursan came into play.

So what your saying is if Casterspike setups are better in DoA (which fair enough is true) then that must mean caster damage is always better?

LifeInfusion · Feb 20, 2011, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

casters can be shut down by only a handful of things.
knockdown
interrupts (includes daze)
skill disable

physical damage can be shut down by so many things that it's difficult to list them all. in other words, this argument fails hard... caster damage is MUCH more reliable, and the composition of DoA speedclear teams will confirm this.

physical shutdown:
knockdown
interrupts
skill disable
adrenaline denial (soothing images, etc)
energy denial (spirit shackles, quicksand, etc.)
reactive hexes (empathy, insidious, etc.)
miss hexes (blurred vision, reckless haste, etc)
snaring hexes (deep freeze, grasping earth, etc.)
wards (ward against melee, ward against foes)
kiting
blocking
blind
weakness
cripple

in addition, the bulk of physway's damage depends on a long-recharge hex that can simply be removed by the enemy, thus it is only reliable in places where hex removal is rare or nonexistent. In contrast, the caster teams can only be reliably shutdown by consistent mass knockdown or consistent interrupts (e.g. Panic). Needless to say most speedclear teams of past and present have been caster based. For those saying that Searing Flames can't possibly do good damage, can your memory really be that short? Searing Flames teams used to be the *only* way to clear DoA, back before Ursan came into play.

I'd argue more for Keystone mesmers and cry of pain than Searing flames, at least in non-Lightbringer buffed places. That's assuming short duration reactive hexes like clumsiness, ineptitude, mistrust, wandering eye,wastrel's worry, are out and you're not going to be spiking with e-surge, overload, shatter delusions, cry of pain.

It's not that hard to get physical damage out, physicals are also Paragons and Rangers and melee can spear if they get snared... The only place it would be hard to do without a cleaner is SoO and DoA or places where you have 5-6recharge Clumsiness mesmer spammers (which is ridiculous sometimes).

knockdown - I don't get this, there's no permanent knockdowns, 2-3s of KD is not much and rarely it will teamwide (Giant stomp is an exception, Meteor + Earthquake are so slow it's laughable)
interrupts - the likelihood of being interrupted is more likely on an ele due to spam and diversion is much more likely to hit searing flames
skill disable - don't need to use attack skills, they can just autoattack with a spear.
adrenaline denial (soothing images, etc) - don't need to use attack skills, they can just autoattack with a spear.
energy denial (spirit shackles, quicksand, etc.) - don't need to use attack skills, they can just autoattack with a spear.
reactive hexes (empathy, insidious, etc.) - these are on 10+ cooldown, there's no issue if you have a cleaner
miss hexes (blurred vision, reckless haste, etc) - these are on 10+ cooldown, there's no issue if you have a cleaner, especially since few of these are AoE save for blurred
snaring hexes (deep freeze, grasping earth, etc.) - these don't get used that much except for Deep Freeze
wards (ward against melee, ward against foes) - Rigor mortis?
kiting - fine
blocking - rigor Mortis
blind - clarity + cleaner
weakness - clarity + cleaner
cripple - cleaner

foul feast/draw conditions + deny hexes solves almost all your problems

If you're arguing for searing flames, there's tons of things that have fire resist and enchant/condition removal.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 20, 2011, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Once again, I've thrown the numbers on the table for all of you to see. They are right there. I've also stated that Searing Flames is much harder to shut down on multiple occasions in comparison to Mark of Pain. Anything that is a threat to Searing Flames is also a much greater threat to MoP Bomb, while the same does not apply in reverse. This means that if I add anything to the calculations, MoP is going to be hit harder, only further proving why Searing Flames is great DPS.

Interruption isn't really a threat to Searing Flames. The skill has a 2 second recharge time. MoP, AP, and EVA all have 3x the chance of getting interrupted as a chain and threaten to shutdown the spike for 30 seconds to a full minute if any get interrupted.

Searing Flames can still apply over 100 DPS without attunement's and maintain energy. MoP damage drops to ~70 when it gets hit with any form of shutdown.

Burning across 5+ targets is much more difficult to remove than a single hex on a target. And no, you're not going to be able to cover anything in Hard Mode. The monks simply cast too fast. Do you really want me to calculate in having to cast Suffering before every spike? Once again, the spike will likely be shut down for 30 to 60 seconds if either MoP or AP get removed.

There is AI behind the damage with MoP. He can die and often doesn't attack the intended target, not to mention that he can be blinded and knocked down. MoP Bomb will likely be shut down for 30 to 60 seconds depending. Searing Flames does not have this issue.

Finally, I am having a hard time understanding about the constant whining still. Searing Flames is holding it's own against the highest damage AoE skill in the game. In fact, so far, the only way MoP out-damages Searing Flames is if you have a Physway team helping the Necro. In this case, you can throw Mesmerway behind the Ele and still have comparable numbers. The only way MoP is a hands down winner is if you Manly Spike, and that is the coordination of 3 super gimmicky builds that allow you to do something you shouldn't even be able to.

Ultimately, Elementalists are pissed that they cannot do exploit levels of damage. You have the highest AoE damage in the game, but you insist on comparing yourself to one scenario. Get over it. Once you realize your class isn't totally trash and understand how it works, you'll enjoy the game a lot more.

LifeInfusion · Feb 20, 2011, 07:35 PM // 19:35

If you take into account the fact that you need cracked armor (which is in adjacent range only, due to Weaken armor), Searing flames is almost adjacent range, because stuff without cracked armor isn't going to be hit for anywhere close to full damage.

Trying to spam searing flames without an attunement is like smacking yourself with a trout. (bad analogy but yeh) 15energy every 2 seconds is outright impossible and glyph of lesser energy is on 30 cooldown, so your only energy management option is Glowing Gaze which returns +6 net every 8 seconds at 12+ energy storage. I'm amazed you even suggested that. With no attunement it might as well be 8 recharge like Rodgort's Invocation or 7 like Fireball, which means all you'll be doing is maintaining burning...even with Ebon vanguard standard of wisdom (for Glowing Gaze) you will be hard pressed to cast Searing flames more often than every 5 seconds (if you count the 40/40 set activating every time).

Why do interrupts matter? D-shot = no Searing flames for 20s, as is Power Lock, Magebane shot or any other such skills. Any other interrupt puts you down 15 energy since interrupted spells don't get attunement energy return.

Jeydra · Feb 24, 2011, 02:21 PM // 14:21

It's not a bad skill to be honest, my fair assessment of it would be that it's a skill good enough to hold a place when not using AP / ER. 10s cooldown is mitigated by how you won't be getting perfect Intensity triggers all the time (that is, when you're hitting >4 monsters a cast). Instant-cast is also a great trait in its favour, it allows for damage-compression.

Of course non-AP builds still can't compare with AP builds in general, but that's not the fault of Intensity, is it?

AndrewSX · Feb 24, 2011, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Well, this version of intensity is quite disappointing, at least thinking about the possible changes that we've discussed so much. New Intensity works well with 1-shot AoE large damage(with low cast time hopefully), wich means in other words Rogdort or Invoke.

At least i think that, cause this update doesn't change the ele's damage problem, this is'nt the long-asked at Anet ele's fix...at least i hope.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 24, 2011, 08:41 PM // 20:41

@Jeydra:
What are your thoughts on why Intensity's shouldn't be used with AP builds?