Curse

Akimb0 · Mar 12, 2010, 10:58 PM // 22:58

tl;dr - Casting water hexes on an enemy snares them. Casting a new hex just before the old one runs out keeps them snared. If you fill your bar with snares you can keep them snared for a long time.

Frozen Ele · Mar 13, 2010, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Update: Added FAQ section and will be combing through the thread to answer more questions. When I answer a question, I'll add it to the FAQ and post the response seperately (too keep it clear to the asker of the question that I answered it). I hope to have all questions answered in the next day or so.

Finishing up a chart that will give the efficiencies of single and combo water snares at different attribute levels (posting an adapted equation for the lower level attributes). I hope to have this posted within the next few days, but it could be next weekend when I'll post.

I haven't started any work on earth snares yet; I want to finish water snares before I move there.

I cleaned up the thread a little, deleting a few of my more worthless posts.

Frozen Ele · Mar 21, 2010, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Based off of the work I've done and the work that I'm finishing up with this study, I was wondering if this thread could be stickied, so the work isn't lost over time and is easily accessable and recognizable.

Forbidden_Virtue · Mar 22, 2010, 02:31 AM // 02:31

As my Elementalist is my first born, and primary character. I can certainly appreciate the dedication and effort you have put into this. And I do agree on the sticky

Desert Rose · Mar 25, 2010, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Two imo quite important values are still missing to make the slow hexes acctually compareable; firstly energy usage, simply how much energy per second you spend if you cast the hex as often as possible, and time usage, how much percent of the time you spend to cast the hex as often as possible.

E.g. Freezing Gust costs 1,67 energy per second without any e-managment, 1,17 with Water Attunement, and 1 with Water Attunement and Aura of Restoration; and its time usage is (1 + 0,75) / 6 = 0,2917 = 29,17%.

Frozen Ele · Mar 26, 2010, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Two imo quite important values are still missing to make the slow hexes acctually compareable; firstly energy usage, simply how much energy per second you spend if you cast the hex as often as possible

A few points. First, the scope of this study was to compare the efficiencies (time active versus total time) of water snares, rather than energy costs, so energy costs was not the focus of this study and is not within its scope. Second, I considered factoring energy and damage of each of the snares, but there were a few issues in doing so, so I decided not to include either. The primary issue was that how much weight should I add to energy or damage? Should energy usage be as important as damage done or as important as the efficiency of each snare? Because of that issue (and others, which I can dtail should you choose) I decided to not focus on those aspects. Finally, I decided not to include energy calculations because in many builds energy usage doesn't matter; it is easy enough to create a build with good energy management so that energy cost doesn't matter (also, there is the factor of if one's teammate(s) bring skills that could aid in energy management).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

time usage, how much percent of the time you spend to cast the hex as often as possible.

The percent of time used to cast the snare(s) is inherent in the snare effiency percentages and equations. In both, casting time is factored in. After-cast delay is inherent in all of the snares cast and becasue of this consistancy it can be ruled out when examining snare effiencies (refer to the FAQ).

Desert Rose · Apr 01, 2010, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozen Ele

The primary issue was that how much weight should I add to energy or damage?

Don't give them any weight at all, simply list them in your charts; this way, anyone can quickly compare the snares by their preferences.

Quote:

The percent of time used to cast the snare(s) is inherent in the snare effiency percentages and equations. In both, casting time is factored in.

Yes, casting time is considered in the %active and "by rounds" equations, but both values display the percent of time used to cast the snares in a very indirect and ambiguous way.
E.g. if the first snare has a cast time of 1 and a recharge time of 9, and the second one has a cast time of 2 and a recharge time of 8 and the same snare duration, the %active value will be the same, yet the %casting time for both snares would be different.

Frozen Ele · Apr 01, 2010, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Don't give them any weight at all, simply list them in your charts; this way, anyone can quickly compare the snares by their preferences.

Sounds fair to me, but my only hesitation is that this study is focused on efficieny of snares, not necessarily how comparable they are (besides comparability via efficiency).

Since updating the charts with the given values (especially if I factor in energy management measures in for energy per second (EPS) and damage enchancing measures with damage per second (DPS)) would take some work and since the EPS and DPS calculation are not within the initial scope of the study, I would like to see this thread stickied to preserve this further work.

Onto the specifics of the EPS calculations, what energy management measures should I take into consideration? I was thinking about looking at Water Attunement, Elemental Attunement, Aura of Restoration, and Elemental Lord, but should I look at each combination of each energy management method (i.e. should I look at just Water Attunement, just Aura of Restoration, then Water Attunement + Aura of Restoration, Elemental Lord + Aura of Restoration, etc., which would be 15 combinations)?

With the DPS calculations, what damage enchancing measures should I take into consideration? I was thinking Intensity, "By Ural's Hammar!" and Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, but the problem with the damage enchancing measures is that some of these measures (primarily the former two) do not last long, nor can be kept up permanently. For BUH, I could assume that 2 allies are under 50% health and that the one using the shout has a Deldrimor Rank of 10, making BUH maintainable, but the first assumption can be a dangerous one. With Intensity, such assumption can't be made to make it maintainable. Thus, the question becomes: should I test damage enchancing measures, and if so, which ones and in what combination or pattern?

Any suggestions on the EPS and DPS questions would be largely helpful, and as always, I encourage any feedback to this study (and any votes to sticky it

).

Desert Rose · Apr 11, 2010, 05:05 PM // 17:05

For EPS: Nothing, Water Attunement, and Attunement+Aura of Restoration because I've seen very rarly that players use something else.

For DPS: Well, if someone uses Water Magic I presume he already knows that he won't do much damage, so imo a detailed analysis about DPS is not needed.

Frozen Ele · Apr 11, 2010, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

For EPS: Nothing, Water Attunement, and Attunement+Aura of Restoration because I've seen very rarly that players use something else.

For DPS: Well, if someone uses Water Magic I presume he already knows that he won't do much damage, so imo a detailed analysis about DPS is not needed.

I have the standard EPS (no modifiers) and standard DPS ready to go. I was waiting for your response to see what else I should add before I posted them. I will hopefully be able to do the modified EPS calculation here within the next few days and post them then.

Also, I have the extended equations ready for low-level attribute water snares and snare combos but haven't typed them up nor made a chart of efficiencies (considering ~50 different snare combos over 20 different attribute levels is a big chart and a lot of work), so I don't know if anyone actually cares too much. Any thoughts?

Life Bringing · Apr 11, 2010, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Comparing a mesmer's snare efficiency to an ele's doesn't make sense, because it completely misses the point of using a mesmer to snare. No one takes a mesmer for stronger snares, they take them so that their snares actually get cast, and not dshotted.

Frozen Ele · Apr 11, 2010, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Comparing a mesmer's snare efficiency to an ele's doesn't make sense, because it completely misses the point of using a mesmer to snare. No one takes a mesmer for stronger snares, they take them so that their snares actually get cast, and not dshotted.

Since this study was examining the efficiency of snares, I took that road with mesmers casting the snares. I can include % of time spent casting calculations (to which mesmers' would be lower than elementalists'), but it all comes down to preference: do you want longer, more efficient snares or shorter cast times?

If the latter, a mesmer still isn't too much better than an ele. Using a 40/40 set, there is about a ~39% chance of 1/2 casting time, which is equivalent to a mesmer with 15 fast casting. Since fast casting does not stack with HCT and since the max casting reduction is 1/2, the only thing a mesmer could provide over an ele (who is using a 40/40 set) is the assurance of the HCT. On average, based off of how a mesmer can have anywhere from 10% to 40% lower snare efficiency than an elementalist, I would rather stick with the ele (especially since the ele can make use of the 40/40 set), but it all comes down to the specific snares being cast as to what type of character one should bring.

Lastly, as far as damage is concerned, an ele would damage the foe(s) more. Granted, having already chosen a snarer means that one is not so focused on that person doing damage, extra damage never hurts when you're trying to kill your opponents. So eles would be prefered here over mesmers.

Frozen Ele · Apr 24, 2010, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Added EPS, DPS, percent of time casting charts, equations, etc.

Please leave any comments, questions, feedback, or concerns you might have!

Frozen Ele · May 16, 2010, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Hey everyone! The study has been dormant for a month or so, but I just wanted to check in on everyone and wanted to survey to see who found it useful, how many found it useful, wants it sticked (or wouldn't mind if it was stickied), etc.

I am also interested in any feedback you might have so that I can continue to polish it up (especially the logistics of the different sections since I added new content) and any suggestions that you might have.

Thanks for your time and your comments!

expugnare · May 16, 2010, 07:10 PM // 19:10

I didn't find it terribly useful.... I mean, I think it was a very well done and highly polished piece of work and deserves a stick for effort alone, but it really didn't do anything except confirm stuff people already knew or at least suspected. Water is still a sub-par line.

I would very much like another "Symbolic and Graphical Investigation", but maybe one that determines empirically what is the best and most efficient DPS build in HM (and NM, I guess).

Frozen Ele · May 16, 2010, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by expugnare

I didn't find it terribly useful.... I mean, I think it was a very well done and highly polished piece of work and deserves a stick for effort alone, but it really didn't do anything except confirm stuff people already knew or at least suspected. Water is still a sub-par line.

I would very much like another "Symbolic and Graphical Investigation", but maybe one that determines empirically what is the best and most efficient DPS build in HM (and NM, I guess).

Thanks for the feedback! The only question I have is: do you think the study fulfilled its purpose of presenting a comprehensive method (be it referencing tables, or using equations) to compare the efficiency, damage output, energy management, and percent of time casting of both single snares and combinations of two snares?

On a side note, after starting a thread for different study topics, I was thinking that after the mesmer, paragon, and dervish updates (assuming that we get those here in the next few weeks), I was going to compare damage output per class to determine who lives up to their reputation as damage dealers to conclusively decide, once and for all, the ranking of classes by the damage they can provide. With that, to be sure that I don't make a study that half the community disagrees on, I am going to ask the community which factors I should consider and what parameters there should be (but this is the topic of another thread I will start here soon).

Once again, thanks for the feedback!

Still looking to see if other people found it useful/other suggestions/should it be stickied, etc.

expugnare · May 17, 2010, 02:06 AM // 02:06

I think it achieved that goal, but only to a certain extent. A lot of people, I'm sure, were stumped by the sheer amount of data. Make your next study a bit more friendly to people who are afraid of math. But yes, it gives valid data, and is (extremely) comprehensive.

I like the sound of that new study. :P

Hopefully Eles will get some love with the update too, I'm *so* tired of healing people.

Frozen Ele · May 29, 2010, 04:12 PM // 16:12

With the Mesmer update, the section comparing an Elementalist's sanring efficiency to a Mesmer's snaring efficiency with Water Magic snares is a tad outdated; Mesmers will only cast Tenai's Prison, Ice Prison, Ice Spikes, and Deep Freeze faster than normal with Fast Casting, all other snare cast times are unaffected by Fast Casting. As such, I will update this section of the study, although I might not be able to finish and post it until next weekend.

As always, post your feedback, concerns, and criticisms!

Lanier · May 29, 2010, 04:54 PM // 16:54

So I just stumbled upon this and, to be honest, I am kind of surprised it isnt stickied. I mean a whole lot of work obviously went into this and in terms of comparing water snares, I dont think you really could have been any more comprehensive. I do agree that the FC vs ele section needs to be updated.

The profession that I play is mesmer and I would honestly love to see a comparison done on different mesmer snares. Keep up the good work and with an update to the FC vs Water ele section, I would definitely say this should be /stickied.

Frozen Ele · Jun 13, 2010, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Fixed the Fast Casting section.

As always, post your feedback, concerns, and criticisms!