Curse

Revelations · Mar 10, 2010, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Your conclusions are utterly devoid of any practical usefulness, aside from

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(4) There are certain casting patterns to maximize the efficiency of a combination of snares

which is pretty damn intuitive anyway.

Pointless thread is pointless.

Archress Shayleigh · Mar 10, 2010, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Whoa. This is.. impressive.

Frozen Ele · Mar 10, 2010, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

Your conclusions are utterly devoid of any practical usefulness, aside from
which is pretty damn intuitive anyway.

Pointless thread is pointless.

Intuitive or not, this thread reaffirmed such conclusions mathematically, moving beyond impressions and feelings to prove them. Also, I refrained from major conclusions and judgments to minimize my bias in this area. If you, and others, want me to assert more substantial conclusions, I can; my objective in this thread was not to dictate which snare(s) everyone should be using, but rather to point out the efficiency of the snare(s) that one is using. In other words, this thread was for people to explore snares, seeing for themselves which are best - most efficient - rather than me telling them. I have my reasons for doing the latter, which I can further explain, or I can go ahead and explicitly indicate which snare and snare combo are the best, if enough people want me to.

Olle · Mar 10, 2010, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Wooow.... Thats almost scary, but i bet your ag
great midline :P

Kenzo Skunk · Mar 10, 2010, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Congrats for such an effort. But you probably love math anyway

Derrick the Nomad · Mar 10, 2010, 04:10 PM // 16:10

I'm assuming that you will be using this to at least score some extra credit in one of your math based classes.

Also, I suspect that you are an Asura & I will be gravely disapointed if I do not see "Frozzen Ell" as a resident of Rata Sum in GW2.

Frozen Ele · Mar 10, 2010, 04:22 PM // 16:22

I'll respond to your questions in (hopefully not more than) two posts. The first part:

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Originally Posted by awry

do you think then that there would be much differences if someone were to play fast cast mesmer?

For mesmer vs ele analysis, reference post #10.

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Originally Posted by Derrick the Nomad

I'm assuming that you will be using this to at least score some extra credit in one of your math based classes.

Nope, just doing this for the fun of it.

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Originally Posted by Derrick the Nomad

Also, I suspect that you are an Asura & I will be gravely disapointed if I do not see "Frozzen Ell" as a resident of Rata Sum in GW2.

Ironically, I'm more of a Charr person myself

Xenomortis · Mar 10, 2010, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozen Ele

(Should I add this to the investigation and place it in one of my "extra spaces"?)

For the sake of completeness, yes; discuss the FC Mes option.
It might also be an idea to just check the differences caused by varying your Water Magic rank.

Also, small spelling error - there's no s in l'Hôpital.
Simply dividing both denominator and numerator by n in your limits would have made them much more obvious anyway, negating the need to find derivatives to apply l'Hopital's.

I really don't know what sort of value these calculations have. I don't think they're going to change anything or bring anything new to light, but it's nice that you took the time to push through them.

Frozen Ele · Mar 10, 2010, 05:08 PM // 17:08

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Originally Posted by Xenomortis

For the sake of completeness, yes; discuss the FC Mes option.
It might also be an idea to just check the differences caused by varying your Water Magic rank.

The factors of the FC mesmer on the efficiencies of the snares are the decrease in duration (for the most part) - tied to the water magic rank, the decrease in casting time - tied to the FC rank, and then the final ratio of the two and the rechare.

Consider Ice Spikes, with 12 in water magic and 15 in FC, the casting time is 1s, the duration is 5s, and the recharge is 10s, so the efficieny would be 5/11. For a water ele with 15 in water magic, the efficiency is 6/12. Although both the numerator and demoninator had 1 subracted from it, the resulting fraction were different, .4545 vs. .5000 respectively. Producing the equations to reflect these factors shouldn't take long, as I just need to modify a few values in each to account for the variances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Also, small spelling error - there's no s in l'Hôpital.
Simply dividing both denominator and numerator by n in your limits would have made them much more obvious anyway, negating the need to find derivatives to apply l'Hopital's.

James Stewart's Essential Calculus: Early Transcendentals, my main reference book over the course of my investigation, refers to it as "L'Hospital's Rule" (see pg. 188). (I can scan the page and post it here if you want)

Dividng both by "n" would have worked, since the values divided by infinity would converge to zero, but went with L'Hospital's because of its application to instances like this, my familiarity with it, and because of the formal atmosphere of the proofs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I really don't know what sort of value these calculations have. I don't think they're going to change anything or bring anything new to light, but it's nice that you took the time to push through them.

When preforming this investigation, I didn't set out to radically change snaring as we know it, and the results point to that. Rather, I set out to confirm beliefs mathematically and to produce values which makes snares and snare combos easily comparable. Part of the purpose is that when someone is deciding, "should I use snare X or Y, or X then Y or Y then X," they could look at this investigation and see which of the possibilities is the most efficient and probably the one they'd want to use.

Winterclaw · Mar 10, 2010, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Okay, why use 15 water? Snaring is more important in PvP and I'd usually want as much life as possible in there.

What effect does AoE have on the calculations? Some skills can snare multiple opponents like a monk and his linebacker. If Deep Freeze hits two people on occasion, it has to have more value because of it.

Another thing is you didn't take exhaustion into account for mind freeze. If you cast that on recharge you are going to be exhausted pretty quickly. Thus it gradually loses its ability to snare if you don't wait the full 30 seconds for your energy to recover.

Next how do other skills effect your rankings? You've got skills like arcane echo, glyph of swiftness, chilling winds, Gust for 3 seconds of KD, and FC/Mantra of Recovery for Me/Els.

Finally how do water magic snares compare to earth snares?

Xenomortis · Mar 10, 2010, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozen Ele

James Stewart's Essential Calculus: Early Transcendentals, my main reference book over the course of my investigation, refers to it as "L'Hospital's Rule" (see pg. 188).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillaume_de_l'Hôpital - meh, there's a section that basically says that's correct.

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Originally Posted by Linked Wikipedia article of Guillaume de l'Hôpital

l'Hôpital is commonly spelled as both "l'Hospital" and "l'Hôpital." The Marquis spelled his name with an 's'; however, the French language has since dropped the 's' (it was silent anyway) and added a circumflex to the preceding vowel.

Fair enough.

I should note I haven't fully checked through your maths, but it seems complete and I can't think of anything you're missing.

As you mentioned, adding in the extra notes shouldn't be too hard (you've already set everything up, it's just a case of altering the numbers).

Frozen Ele · Mar 10, 2010, 06:07 PM // 18:07

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