Curse

Jeydra · Mar 25, 2011, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Lol?

Elementalists aren't awesome, they're just comparable with the "best of the rest" aka. way behind Rits and the MM in 7H situations.

Khomet Si Netjer · Mar 25, 2011, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somor

5 ¾ 10

Elite Touch Spell. Deals 7...91...112 fire damage. Also hits nearby foes. You lose 5 Energy if more than one foe is struck.

5 ¼ 10

Skill. For 1 second, nothing happens. When this skill ends, all foes adjacent to target ally are struck for 5...89...110 lightning damage (armor-ignoring).

Ah, the balance.

Yes exactly... or more properly, compare Starburst with Destructive Was Glaive.

5 ¾ 5

Elite Item Spell. (30...54...60 seconds.) Your Ritualist skills have 20% armor penetration. Drop effect: deals 10...82...100 lightning damage to all foes in the area.

DwG costs half as much energy as Starburst, recharges in half the time, *and* gives 20% armor penetration. What is wrong with Anet's balance team?

AndrewSX · Mar 25, 2011, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

What is wrong with Anet's balance team?

I was wandering the same.

Also:

Invoke Lighting: Elite spell. Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 10...74 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration. If you are not under the effects of an Enchantment, this spell causes Exhaustion.

and

Chain lighting: Spell.Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 10...70 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration and causes Exhaustion if you are not enchanted.

with

Deathly Swarm: Deathly Swarm flies out slowly and deals 30...78 cold damage. Hits two additional foes in the area.

........LoL.

Xenomortis · Mar 25, 2011, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Take a look at Death Magic as a damage line then take a look at Air Magic.
Also notice the armour penetration on the two air spells.
Also notice the one second cast time on Invoke.

Jeydra · Mar 25, 2011, 03:45 PM // 15:45

^ Should add that Invoke's / Chain Lightning's damage is more or less instant; Deathly Swarm is slow ("flies slowly" and all that).

I'd agree with the comparison between Star Burst, Ancestor's Rage and DwG, though.

AndrewSX · Mar 25, 2011, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

I was wandering the same.

Also:

Invoke Lighting: Elite spell. Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 10...74 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration. If you are not under the effects of an Enchantment, this spell causes Exhaustion.

and

Chain lighting: Spell.Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 10...70 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration and causes Exhaustion if you are not enchanted.

with

Deathly Swarm: Deathly Swarm flies out slowly and deals 30...78 cold damage. Hits two additional foes in the area.

........LoL.

/facepalm

This is what happen if i write on guru early in the morning....misreaded Deathly swarm stats with the skill that follow it in the wiki list...which is Discord, lol.

Delete, obliterate, forget, ignore this mindfart.

LifeInfusion · Mar 25, 2011, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somor

Star Burst
5 ¾ 10

Elite Touch Spell. Deals 7...91...112 fire damage. Also hits nearby foes. You lose 5 Energy if more than one foe is struck.

A-Rage
5 ¼ 10

Skill. For 1 second, nothing happens. When this skill ends, all foes adjacent to target ally are struck for 5...89...110 lightning damage (armor-ignoring).

Ah, the balance.

I don't care if some skills are lame. Not all skills have to be WTF-overpowered. I care that entire lines are not capable of sustainable damage. If you compare Star burst even to fireball it's lame. You could argue Star Burst is nearby range, but then again it's still bad.

Discounting every single target spell from ele skills, that leaves you with a bunch of armor reduced, 8-10+ recharge AoEs and DoTs with >20 recharge. Invoke+chain lightning isn't spectacular simply due to the target limit and the max of 30-38DPS per target if you cast both on recharge and devote 4 slots to it (Invoke, chain, attune, AoR). If those 3 targets are in adjacent range then you're better off pumping out 30-40DPs with scythe auto-attack, before buffs like conjures.

Jeydra posted his/her 700+DPS Savannah's Heat build before. It's not sustainable. Any DOT without AP is not sustainable simply because the lowest recharge is 20 so you're better off with RoJ unless you AP it. 700DPs in 10 seconds and then a lull of 20+ seconds is not exactly useful (EBSOH without AP is also 20 recharge).

Quote:

To put it in perspective with a skill like Keystone signet or just 2 nonelites clumsiness+wandering eye or Cry of frustration + mistrust +overload/wastrel spam +unnatural sig, there has to be at least 2 skills with <10 recharge that do 100+ AoE after armor, with 1 cast time and sustainable energy (5 after attunement + AoR). There's flat out no way to compete with 57*6 every 10-15 seconds (before the +57 from each Signet of Clumsiness x2, +47 x2 from Unnatural sig) from Keystone or ~100 every 6-8 seconds from Illusion spam.

Fire comes close with Fireball + Liquid Flame +Phoenix/Inferno (PBAOE) + Rodgort's Invocation (only with Mind Blast). Searing Flames bars can only spam Searing Flames and need 3-4 skill slots for energy-management (Glowing Gaze + Attunement+AoR+goLE).

Water has ice spikes, deep freeze, rust. None of these do big damage (peaking around 80-90 armor-reduced) and only rust is 10 energy.

Air has a limit of 3 targets, peaking at ~100 armor reduced (chain/invoke).

Earth has Earthquake/Dragon's Stomp, the rest are DoTAoEs like Churning earth/Eruption. 3 cast *2 =6, +2*0.75 aftercast = 7.5 just for two skills. The only way to get any skills on <10 recharge is to go PBAOE with Aftershock. The other PBAOEs are 20 recharge (Crystal Wave/Teinai's Crystals) or elite (Shockwave).

DoTS are on 20+ recharge for~200 damage (+75 from EBSOH if you bring it) so you need something like Assassin's Promise or Glyph of Renewal and a snare.

P.S. Fireball, Phoenix, Ice Spikes, Rust, Breath of Fire, Meteor, Meteor Shower, Firestorm are adjacent. It doesn't help the "Elementalists do less damage but they have a bigger range so they hit more" argument. It actually invalidates every solely damage build. Illusion mesmers can pack Arcane conundrum as energy management, and all other mesmers can bring 2 skills of their choice that make up for the 2 slots used by attunement + AoR.

After you take those out you're left with only a handful of potential skills that aren't DoT:
Searing Flames (needs insane energy... attune+AoR+glyph+Glowing gaze = 5 slots used, no "spike" due to first cast applying burning only, ELITE)
Rodgort's Invocation (only usable with Dual attunement /Glyph of Energy/Mind Blast , else you need Glyph of Lesser energy)
Deep Freeze (+ it has snare utility , 25 energy)
Liquid Flame (15 recharge)
Earthquake/Dragon's Stomp (way too long cast; exhaustion; 25 energy)
Incendiary Bonds (lame due to not doing much damage and costing 15 energy; also doesn't do anything if removed)
Lava arrows (3 target cap, lame damage)
Invoke Lightning (3 target cap)
Chain Lightning (3 target cap)
Double Dragon (PBAOE, ELITE)
Flame Burst (PBAOE)
Star Burst (PBAOE, ELITE)
Shockwave (PBAOE, ELITE)
Frozen Burst (PBAOE, 15 energy)
=

It's hilarious how the majority of PBAOEs are adjacent. Also, the ones in fire magic are major FAIL since you don't have easy access to Armor of earth/stoneflesh/frigid armor so that you don't get smacked for 200 while doing your pitiful 100ish armor-reduced PBAOEs.

To put it in perspective, a long time ago Renewal Meteor Shower ; Whirlwind-aftershock's 180-250ish damage was considered decent for the 10 cooldown of the combo (way less risky/more spikey than Lava font which is ~50DPS for 5 seconds; Phoenix which is [email protected]). The skills haven't changed.

Even if Eles did decent damage albeit in PBAOE, that has been taken over by Dervishes.

Ele Bar:
Attune (more or less mandatory)
AoR (optional if you run 10 energy skills only)
10 energy Ele skill with 12 Effective Recharge
10 energy Ele skill with 10 Effective Recharge
10 energy Ele skill with 15 Effective Recharge
Glyph/PVE skill
PVE skill
PVE Skill/Res

where Effective Recharge=Cast+Recharge+0.75 aftercast
5/12+5/10+5/15=1.25 <1.333

Seeing how if your PVE skill has less than 60 recharge and more than 5 energy cost and there is no Ele skill that is being used that will give back extra energy (Glowing Ice/Glowing Gaze) then you will need Glyph. Of course if you dump a load of points in Energy Storage you can use the lull in between battles to regen some energy. If your team is quick or uses "Fall Back!" then you don't even have a few seconds to make up an energy deficit. For example, 2 PVE spells with 20 recharge (i.e. sin support, EBSOH, EBSOW) need 13.5sec regen time without glyph so unless you have really long walks you're always going to be running a tight ship with respect to energy compared to necros which get anywhere from an extra 0.8energy/second (4 soul reap with 3 deaths every 15sec) to 2.6 energy/sec (13 SR).

Bright Star Shine · Mar 26, 2011, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Lol?

Elementalists aren't awesome, they're just comparable with the "best of the rest" aka. way behind Rits and the MM in 7H situations.

My ele has already done everything, and out of my getting-my-GWAMM-on-my-ele experience, I can tell that the damage sucks ass. I had to run a dull, boring AP nuker bar to get a bit of pressure off, and most of my damage was from PvE skills anyway. I also ran Discord or Sabway necro's with some henchies, or with some luck a friend with other discord heroes. Why? Because necro's are the best in PvE: general support, utility, yet still good damage and awesome energy management. All those things are nowhere to be found with eles. Their damage is crap, they energy management requires them to take at least 3 extra skills, which causes less space for damage, which causes, well, shit..

Admit it dude, stop denying that eles are crap all the way, in PvP they are strong because the armor levels aren't retardedly high there. Ok, eles are good when they go Defense warder or something like that, that spectrum is still pretty strong, but tbh, it's boring as shit. And PvE in general is so laughable that taking defense is futile, the best tactic in PvE is still: "take so much offense you blow everything to bits before they can even hit you" a role that is perfectly fulfilled by: Warriors, Assassins, Dervishes, Mesmers, Necro's, Ritualists and for the love of (a non-existent) god, even Monks. Professions that suck at this are: eles, para's and rangers.

I've said it time and again: if you have a game in which your so-called awesomesause nuker class is better at protting than your healer class, and that same healer class is better at blowing shit to bits than your nuker class, you have a problem.

Jeydra · Mar 26, 2011, 09:39 AM // 09:39

If you're so certain, why not take me on in a 7H time trial? After all, not only do you have a GWAMM Ele and so we can use the same primary profession, all you have to do to beat my times is switch out my Elementalist heroes for Monks! Same terms as this one, if you dare: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/c...t10475472.html You don't have to use S/D/M, but you should use offensive Monks.

Frankly at this point I'd be surprised you accept, because like other big talkers, you like to talk, talk and talk some more, but won't back your words up with deeds.

UnChosen · Mar 26, 2011, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you're so certain, why not take me on in a 7H time trial? After all, not only do you have a GWAMM Ele and so we can use the same primary profession, all you have to do to beat my times is switch out my Elementalist heroes for Monks! Same terms as this one, if you dare: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/c...t10475472.html You don't have to use S/D/M, but you should use offensive Monks.

Frankly at this point I'd be surprised you accept, because like other big talkers, you like to talk, talk and talk some more, but won't back your words up with deeds.

Its a trap!

1) Heroes AI suck, and couldn't target properly. All it takes is to give the eles the most spammable skills and they'll surpass the monk in daamge. Its a completely different story with humans though.

2) I could micro the ele and pull some Knockdown + Snare + AoE Bull**** which obviously would beat monks. The only way it'll be fair is if there are absolutely ZERO synergy between all eles.

And way too many other factors that would make this a biased "contest"...no thank you.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 26, 2011, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you're so certain, why not take me on in a 7H time trial? After all, not only do you have a GWAMM Ele and so we can use the same primary profession, all you have to do to beat my times is switch out my Elementalist heroes for Monks! Same terms as this one, if you dare: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/c...t10475472.html You don't have to use S/D/M, but you should use offensive Monks.

Frankly at this point I'd be surprised you accept, because like other big talkers, you like to talk, talk and talk some more, but won't back your words up with deeds.

Well, set the bar then, I'm still waiting..

Jeydra · Mar 27, 2011, 01:48 AM // 01:48

You're letting me choose the area?

Do you agree not to use any offensive hero Elementalists, instead using an offensive hero Monk for every offensive hero Elementalist I use?

I warn you though, if you let me choose the area the results will be hilarious.

PS: If you want to choose the area, I'll accept any except those with large amounts of undead (+HM, 8-man).

wiz12268 · Apr 25, 2011, 06:07 PM // 18:07

I have a micky mouse comparison system on how to compare classes.

I simply take the exact same heroes with the exact same runes, weapon set up (more or less), and skills, except when the toon takes a hero build. Then see how difficult or easy the same areas are when I do them.

Mostly with either the Z bounties or Z vanquish (if I have time to do multiple vanquishes).

But in order of easiest to most difficult I would rank my classes this way...

Ritualist
Ranger
Monk
Mes
Para
Dervish
Ele

I have a sin but only level 15, and I have no warrior or necro mains.

Ritualist is slightly better than my ranger but they are quite a bit higher than the monk, and head and shoulders ahead of the elementalist. And quite a bit better than the others. Although in a caster heavy area the mesmer leap frogs the monk to third place. But in other maps they are quite close. But overall the monk is slightly better.

What I find is that hero elemental can be just as good if not better than a player elemental if a player ele doesnt use any PvE only skills. Which sort of goes hand in hand with how people configure their teams these days. Rits, mesmers, and necros are the 3 main hero classes, with monks being OK but since mob AI was 'smartened they took a hit. Which sort of connotes theyre the 3 most powerful. The one player class I find that can be very good is ranger, but not a big hero choice. Mostly because of how they use skills, not because theyre not good. But that is where they separate.

Elementalists as I have mentioned, at least from what I see, use the skills fairly well, other than touch and adjacent skills, and maybe better than player elementalists.

My ele was the first class I made and played the most for awhile, now he is basically the one I dont play at all except to do bounties or missions that arent too hard.

But when the most popular elementalist builds are for protection or damage reduction and not offensive output you know they arent really following the original definition.

Jeydra · May 11, 2011, 03:15 PM // 15:15

I tried once again to run a non-AP build, using this in Foundry HM:

Intensity
Lightning Orb
Invoke Lightning [E]
Chain Lightning
Air Attunement
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Ebon Battle Standard of Honor
Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom

The build failed quite badly. Energy was pretty tight, but against Greater Dream Riders + Despair Titans with their veritable array of anti-enchantments there was literally no chance of keeping Air Attunement up. Without Air Attunement, not only is there little energy to cast with, Exhaustion stacks up quickly. Furthermore, both Ebon Wards don't return energy from Air Attunement + interrupts hit energy hard too. It might be possible to improve the build for more energy, perhaps using both Aura of Restoration and Elemental Lord, but at that point I'd seriously wonder, "eh?". Oh and Power Block completely destroys any Elementalist without AP.

It really sucks that almost the only viable elite choice for offensive Elementalists is AP. Even in areas with as many monsters per mob as DoA HM, I might run AP Fire / Earth, but I don't see any reason to use a Fire or Earth elite.

AndrewSX · May 11, 2011, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Hilarious how AP is the best elite for some casters (expecially eles and in certain situations others too) and Sins doesn't even consider Deathly Arts.

Disappointing see that Anet (and Rangers have the same feeling looking on guru) after derv changes said "No more large updates, only some line fixes-non.imba paras, smiters."
AkA: We don't care about Eles or Rangers (and paras in lesser extent) anymore(PvE-wise).

Gabs88 · May 12, 2011, 06:22 PM // 18:22

It's kinda lame to compare the only good nuke elite ritualists got to the worst possible elementalist one though. Compare to Clamor of Souls, Caretaker's Charge, Grasping Was Kuurong and similar. Reality is we don't even get a choice in what elite to use. xD

Lets face it, Elementalists have a very wide variety of available nukes. Even though AP is the clear-cut best choice.

Swingline · May 12, 2011, 08:02 PM // 20:02

It is undeniable that eles are horribly underpowered in pve. A good idea I had was switch AoR to gain energy of any elemental spell by 30% like the attunements while making the attunements boost the damage of their corresponding attribute by buffing damage or giving armor penetration(maybe a bit of both). It would be easier than buffing every single spell individually yet Anet does nothing except buff blinding flash which was absolutely pointless.

Mashiyu · May 13, 2011, 01:29 AM // 01:29

To be fair, the buff of blinding flash was primary for PvP to hurt the overpowered dervishes (and worriors have to suffer with them).

Gabs88 · May 13, 2011, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

It is undeniable that eles are horribly underpowered in pve. A good idea I had was switch AoR to gain energy of any elemental spell by 30% like the attunements while making the attunements boost the damage of their corresponding attribute by buffing damage or giving armor penetration(maybe a bit of both). It would be easier than buffing every single spell individually yet Anet does nothing except buff blinding flash which was absolutely pointless.

Haha, speed wise Jeydra's 2x Air ele + AP Caller Ele approach to PVE is still undeniably the fastest build out there no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mashiyu

To be fair, the buff of blinding flash was primary for PvP to hurt the overpowered dervishes (and worriors have to suffer with them).

TBH i still find that change extremely weird but at the moment I'd say the most overpowered build in RA is not derv but RA invoke with either Shock or Dshot ^^

Mashiyu · May 14, 2011, 12:28 AM // 00:28

you do realize that anet balances around GvG and not RA?