Curse

expugnare · Feb 05, 2011, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Baphomet

Caster damage was balanced for 8v8 pvp and now there is broken Invoke. I'm assuming with the huge damage and low cooldown of invoke, in pve you can combine BuH/EBSoH etc and make it hit big damage. Pair it with chain lightning.

You'd think so, but you'd be wrong. I've tried it myself and was left unimpressed. In HM, with BuH/EBSoH Invoke still does mediocre damage. One second to cast 60-140 damage, on an 8 second cooldown, to three targets is rather underwhelming. Compare it to MoP with minions and EVAS and you'll see how quickly Eles are outclassed.

But yes, the fundamental issue of this thread is that in Hard Mode, Eles have no viable role as damage dealers because we offer little utility and all our Elemental damage is mitigated by armor. Even with Cracked Armor, against the majority of Hard Mode foes, the damage is weak. (That doesn't change the fact that is is essential in Hard Mode, which I will address later) The crux of the matter isn't that Elementalists can't perform well in H/H or that using their damage is that terrible. Instead it is the fact that every other caster class, and physical class, has far more access to armor ignoring damage, allowing them to upstage Elementalists as they bring support and damage in one nice package. At the same time, however, Elementalists stomp the majority of Normal Mode mobs, with their lower armor and slow scattering reflexes, allowing Eles to bring DoTAOE and use it to full effectiveness. The purpose of this thread is to find the balance that prevents Eles from being even more overpowered in Normal Mode, but at the same time gives them comparable damage, or utility, for Hard Mode play.

EDIT: In case anyone is curious, I run people through both NM and HM content, and I find myself using Fire in HM often. I even run DoT-AoE. It isn't terrible, but I know that the damage is far from superb. I don't try to convince myself that I can compare with the damage or utility of many other classes. I do, however, find it useful, especially in areas with strong casters that need to be disabled and dead very quickly, for example Charr Casters in EOTN or Undead back line in Joko's Domain. That being said, Fire damage is ineffectual in many areas, for example Forgewight. Moreover, the earlier examples of mass buffing Elemental damage in order to make it passable are unrealistic and downright bad--and undoubtedly confined to certain niches, such as Unwaking Waters HM. Minion-bombers bring superior damage output and mitigation (in the form of "tanking"). SoS Rits have extreme bar compression and utility. There are a litany of superior builds I could mention, but to do so would only be beating a dead horse.

Proof of why Weaken Armor is essential in Hard Mode, and tangential evidence that Fire Magic isn't total shit in HM.

Before Cracked Armor: 89 and 95 dmg http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/a...5&d=1295470897
After Cracked Armor: 119 and 127 dmg http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/a...4&d=1295470857

Sure Weaken Armor is only Adjacent range, but its benefits are tremendous.

tl;dr : Elementalists aren't that weak, but are out competed by nearly every other class because of lack of armor ignoring damage. Also, fire isn't total shit.

Jeydra · Feb 05, 2011, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Not going to make a long post, but:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

proof that this is not just my wild imagination:
Unwaking Waters hardmode, using elementalists for damage, completed in 1:40. No consumables were used.

Reasons why I'm not particularly impressed by that:

1) Includes second player with unknown skills on both heroes and player;
2) Unwaking Waters is a 16-man area, and screenshot has no information on the other team's heroes and player(s);
3) Unwaking Waters is a 16-man area, which immediately makes AoE damage more powerful thanks to increased mob sizes.

I echo Xenomortis to see the build in Selvetarm HM (or a similar build using different a different element, if desired, in Forgewight HM).

That said, I think it's quite obvious that if you are going to use Elementalists for damage, you should bring EBSoH, BUH and Weaken Armour (although I'm more sceptical about EBSoW). Snares are as always weak and usually unnecessary; I would certainly change Sousuke to another Fire Elementalist in the build. Rather strange to see that Zhed is Searing Flames while the player is Savannah Heat, too - why not use 2x Savannah Heat Elementalists?

PS: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mirror_of_ice

Quote:

When used with AoE Water Magic hexes, such as Deep Freeze, the additional damage is only applied to your target. As such, PBAoE spells such as Frozen Burst are not affected at all.

Mirror of Ice does only add damage to one target.

LifeInfusion · Feb 05, 2011, 07:45 PM // 19:45

expugnare your fire bar could've been just meteor shower + meteor (if inclined) +firestorm/breath of fire + Fireball given weaken armor's adjacent range. 50 energy is not redeemable by AP. The exhaustion will be killer too.
From the numbers the charr casters have 77-78 armor.

An ele bar with only damage and adjacent range (you need AP + fire attunement + glyph to support the huge time/energy cost) is really not great compared to any other adjacent range caster.

Once you go Nearby range it's pretty much the heats (which suck compared to earth), searing flames, and rodgort's (used with mind blast, dual attune, glyph of energy or other).

Everything to make eles workable is bar expansion rather than compression.

Kaleban · Feb 06, 2011, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Wouldn't the simplest and most elegant solution be to alter HM enemies' extra armor over NM to be only against physical damage?

That way, physical classes like War and Sin still do their respectable damage, but elemental spells and attacks have the same effect as in NM.

If thats too OP, then create elemental weaknesses and resistances like EVERY OTHER RPG in existence. The simplest way in GW would be for HM enemies to have NM armor against one or two elements, to simulate "weakness" and retain the HM level armor against other elements. And this could include Holy, Dark, etc.

That way players would be forced/rewarded to learn each enemy's weaknesses to better exploit them, and the HM elementalists would not be further buffed.

Kunder · Feb 06, 2011, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Any solution that requires going through every area and manually tweaking enemy stats in some form is the kind of change that is very unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future.

Kaleban · Feb 06, 2011, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Any solution that requires going through every area and manually tweaking enemy stats in some form is the kind of change that is very unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future.

Really? Enemy composition in most areas is largely uniform, all enemies use a base template with armor, skills and level.

It seems to me that putting a couple of unpaid interns on it with the instructions to go through each enemy type and alter the armor value to a specific theme might take a day or two. Its not as if each individual Margonite or Undead is a UNIQUE spawn, they're all drawn from basic templates.

And it wouldn't have to be game-wide, not at first at least. They could start with, say, DoA as a test case, and see how elemental characters fare there. If the results are largely positive, then its a simple matter to update areas on a rotating basis.

And its absolutely a better solution than causing ever more power-creep, to the point where only the most Meta builds are even considered at all.

qazwersder · Feb 06, 2011, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Just make all damage be armor affected in HM. This would lower everyone to the ele's level. Its supposed to be hard after all.

Kunder · Feb 06, 2011, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Really? Enemy composition in most areas is largely uniform, all enemies use a base template with armor, skills and level.

It seems to me that putting a couple of unpaid interns on it with the instructions to go through each enemy type and alter the armor value to a specific theme might take a day or two. Its not as if each individual Margonite or Undead is a UNIQUE spawn, they're all drawn from basic templates.

And it wouldn't have to be game-wide, not at first at least. They could start with, say, DoA as a test case, and see how elemental characters fare there. If the results are largely positive, then its a simple matter to update areas on a rotating basis.

And its absolutely a better solution than causing ever more power-creep, to the point where only the most Meta builds are even considered at all.

You would think so, but Anet took several months to implement Hard Mode when I could describe to you the algorithm used for all hard mode changes in a paragraph. And this was back when they actually had a solid team of people working on updates, not the skeleton crew we have now.

ruk1a · Feb 19, 2011, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by qazwersder

Its supposed to be hard after all.

no not really that's just what they want you to think. false sense of accomplishment ftw. i really can't believe what they did to intensity it's almost like anet is trolling ele's for the f*ck of it.

ensoriki · Feb 19, 2011, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Only fire and earth are typically used in PvE.
If Eles had a problem maybe we should've just said "hey lets boost their strengths" or some crap like that.

If searing flames was 10 energy 1/4th cast and 1s recharge, Eles would probably be good still because they'd just spam that Searing Flames even at weakened HM damage till their index finger broke.

C2K · Feb 19, 2011, 08:36 PM // 20:36

I hope Anet does fix eles. Not because they are weak or because they don't put out a lot of damage, but rather because they are so boring to play.

When I play in HM with my ele, I just find myself pressing 1 and 2 for roughly an hour. It lacks the enjoyment of running around with a mesmer or a warrior. Heck, even Dervish is a lot more fun to play now(though I know some stuff will get nerfed :P ). If it wasn't for PvP, I would probably never play the Elementalist class.

So please Anet, make PvE eles more interesting than pressing 1 and 2 on the keyboard.

Steps_Descending · Feb 19, 2011, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Wouldn't the simplest and most elegant solution be to alter HM enemies' extra armor over NM to be only against physical damage?

I love the idea of elemtal weakness (actually, this is emplemented for some enemies, but it's a 10AL difference most of the time. And That would be too much work I'm sure.

The other idea would be nice. And depending how they made HM, possible. If HM is just an algorythm to change the mobs, that would probably possible. If HM is remaking the area... Too much I'm sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

I hope Anet does fix eles. Not because they are weak or because they don't put out a lot of damage, but rather because they are so boring to play.

When I play in HM with my ele, I just find myself pressing 1 and 2 for roughly an hour. It lacks the enjoyment of running around with a mesmer or a warrior. Heck, even Dervish is a lot more fun to play now(though I know some stuff will get nerfed :P ). If it wasn't for PvP, I would probably never play the Elementalist class.

So please Anet, make PvE eles more interesting than pressing 1 and 2 on the keyboard.

what build do you play? An ele build like it was intended should be that way or be more cooldown managing.

C2K · Feb 19, 2011, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

what build do you play? An ele build like it was intended should be that way or be more cooldown managing.

I use Searing Flames for the most part, but I have used Invoke and Shatterstone in certain locations.

With the new Intensity, I would probably go for Invoke or Mind Blast/Rodgorts in the future.

I guess my gripe is that I wish there was more to the PvE ele than just damage, because that's all it really seems to be.

Burning Freebies · Mar 01, 2011, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

I hope Anet does fix eles. Not because they are weak or because they don't put out a lot of damage, but rather because they are so boring to play.

When I play in HM with my ele, I just find myself pressing 1 and 2 for roughly an hour. It lacks the enjoyment of running around with a mesmer or a warrior. Heck, even Dervish is a lot more fun to play now(though I know some stuff will get nerfed :P ). If it wasn't for PvP, I would probably never play the Elementalist class.

So please Anet, make PvE eles more interesting than pressing 1 and 2 on the keyboard.

Partly because i'm terrible, i find eles an awful class-if anything, that dervish update should have been for eles, if not both professions, and it should have happened a long time ago for eles.

I agree with you-eles are boring to play. This is because, for me, i can't actually deal enough damage to warrant playing in Hard Mode. This sucks for me, as i actually want to complete HM things, such as vanquisher titles and the Legendary Guardian title track. Because of the low damage of ele skills, or the other negative factors such as high energy cost, long casting time etc I find it boring to play. We can only just from a handful of half decent skills, which we then just press the number keys for over and over again, for a long time as it takes so long to actually kill anything in HM. The only HM success i have had is during vanquishing with a triple necro build, where I have to equip PvE only skills and skills from other professions-driving me away from the skills i made an elementalist to use.

Its probably because i'm not the greatest player. But something still needs to be done about the ele.

da mahius · Mar 19, 2011, 06:07 PM // 18:07

While human elementalists get a maximum of 120 Damage with a powerful, long-recharge, Long cast time spell, the enemy elementalists do massive amounts of damage. This makes pain inverter a must have. Even in NM Margonite Portal Mages in the Shadow Nexus, rip through your party with 300+ Damage Invoke Lightning.

As for the skills themselves some are heavily nerfed.
Example Meteor Shower
Cost - 25e
Cast Time - 5
Recharge - 60
Damage - 91 every 3rd second with 12 FM. (not counting enemy armour)
Extra - KD every 3rd second

As you can see a maximum of 273 damage in 9 seconds is not worth all the effort for the skill. This skill could be fixed in many ways.
One of the following fixes would be perfect
1) Change the damage to Armour ignoring and have it occur every 1.5 seconds
2) Decrease 2 of [Recharge time, Cast time, energy cost]
3) Bigger AoE so its not wasted on monsters that spread out or run.

Just these little things are helpful to the now dying breed of elementalist.

Just this morning I was doing Dasha Vestibule HM in a PUG. The most damage I saw i did running SF Nuker was 80 or 40 whenever I used Liquid Flame or Glowing Glaze. SF is only useful when the enemy is on fire. A good team build for us Eles would be SF. That way you'd nearly always do damage as someone SF will have set the enemy on fire. SFWay is great.

bhavv · Mar 23, 2011, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Intensity -

Gives +2% Armor Penetration and +1% Damage per rank in ES, Lasts 20 seconds, 30 second recharge.

= Ellys fixed for PVE.

reaper with no name · Mar 24, 2011, 08:22 AM // 08:22

The issue with elemental weaknesses (and this has been brought up before) is that (unlike in other RPGs) the various elemental spells are not carbon-copies of each other with different names. They are completely different skill sets that support different playstyles.

Even if you made certain enemies far more vulnerable to, say, earth damage, the fact that earth damage isn't geared towards damage means that fire and air will likely still be more effective (unless you start making those differences really ridiculous, which would open up a ton of new problems, especially when it came to enemies weak against the elements which ARE meant for damage dealing).

Somor · Mar 25, 2011, 08:17 AM // 08:17

5 ¾ 10

Elite Touch Spell. Deals 7...91...112 fire damage. Also hits nearby foes. You lose 5 Energy if more than one foe is struck.

5 ¼ 10

Skill. For 1 second, nothing happens. When this skill ends, all foes adjacent to target ally are struck for 5...89...110 lightning damage (armor-ignoring).

Ah, the balance.

AndrewSX · Mar 25, 2011, 11:44 AM // 11:44

^This is what i mean when i say that eles lacks not only in damage, but also in skill selection and mechanics usefulness....

Bright Star Shine · Mar 25, 2011, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

^This is what i mean when i say that eles lacks not only in damage, but also in skill selection and mechanics usefulness....

And the fact that most of their elite skills are outdone by other professions normal skills. Thank you armor ignoring damage. (Waiting for Jeydra to come and post that eles are in fact awesome, just like he is)