Curse

saint666 · Jan 21, 2011, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Warrior's Strength bonus is pretty pathetic in the vast majority of cases. It only becomes all that effective in a scythe warrior build that both spams skills and has an exceedingly high base damage to work with (scythe + AoHM). The other case of physicals with high armor-affected damage is a scythe sin build, which is quite similar (main damage being scythe + AoHM lol).

Every other Physical build doing big damage relies primarily on buffs. Strength of Honor (+20), Order of Pain (+15), Barbs (+15), EBSoH (+15), and to top it off Asuran scan and By Urals Hammer (+75%/+25%, and most importantly it multiplies the other skills before it). Given these buffs, a warrior with 33% IAS deals a minimum of 93 armor-ignoring DPS before Asuran scan. After Asuran Scan, the warrior does a massive 160 DPS with nothing but an IAS and a 1 damage sword. And THATS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE END OF IT. We have the AoE ridiculousness of Splinter Weapon (Turn an AoE attack into an armor-ignoring 250-ish damage nuke every 5 seconds) and Mark of Pain (40 AoE damage every time a physical attack hits, and with the effects of an AoE attack and abilities like Hundred blades or Splinter weapon, your AoE damage goes up exponentially as enemies accumulate).

What do caster classes (in general) have to boost damage? By Urals Hammer and EBSoH. Thats it. And on top of that, they cast spells significantly slower than physical classes attack, so they get the bonus damage less often. Ele has intensity as its own PvE class skill booster, but its a joke. Even if it lasted longer than its recharge it would still not make Ele's competitive.

lol ironic that half these buffs come from casters, team effort right?

Cuilan · Jan 21, 2011, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

And I don't see why people complain about mesmers.

They are harder to buff, many skills can fail, and many skills don't have good synergy with good things. Interrupts and many of those damage skills you mentioned are pretty difficult when your group has a lot of knock down spam. They are also found to be a lot more tricky than some other professions.

Age · Jan 21, 2011, 09:00 PM // 21:00

I was talking with and Ele friend of mine and he has no problems playing in HM.He in fact vanquished all of Tyria with no problems all mostly on his own.

There is more than one element than fire and I do of coarse have an Ele.

Kunder · Jan 21, 2011, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

lol ironic that half these buffs come from casters, team effort right?

If by team effort you mean 1 person with 2 or 3 skills... sure

UnChosen · Jan 22, 2011, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I was talking with and Ele friend of mine and he has no problems playing in HM.He in fact vanquished all of Tyria with no problems all mostly on his own.

There is more than one element than fire and I do of coarse have an Ele.

Your point? I have friends that have no problem in HM with an empty bar and could vanquishing all of Tyria while wearing no armour and dancing the whole way through.

expugnare · Jan 22, 2011, 11:47 PM // 23:47

^
This.....

akelarumi · Jan 31, 2011, 02:26 AM // 02:26

I have played all professions there are in game, but Ele is my first and true love.

They are very versatile, being able to (solo) farm, tank, heal and nuke. So all in all I think it is a very attractive profession that has given me a very amusing gaming experience in all sorts of gameplay.

Yes there are some skills I don't use a lot, but every profession has that. As well as some very popular skills that are way too often the focus skill of a build.
Ele: Seering flames
Ranger: Barage
Ritualist: Signet of Spirits
Mesmer: Panic
Necro: Spoil Victor
Paragon: Save yourself
etc.

I've never had a problem to find a pug, when on my ele it is rare that the pug wants to see my build, so I guess they assume that being an ele equals a good build (and yes that isn't always true). I never had complains bout my damage output or felt the person that has been dragged along to come to 8.

My guildy's like to see my ele in the groups we are forming. If it is an elite area or just helping a lower lvl newer member, they are very content with what i'm doing and bring to the team.

So yes, a buff would be nice, it is always nice, but imo it isn't needed at all.

expugnare · Jan 31, 2011, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by akelarumi

I have played all professions there are in game, but Ele is my first and true love.

They are very versatile, being able to (solo) farm, tank, heal and nuke. So all in all I think it is a very attractive profession that has given me a very amusing gaming experience in all sorts of gameplay.

Yes there are some skills I don't use a lot, but every profession has that. As well as some very popular skills that are way too often the focus skill of a build.
Ele: Seering flames
Ranger: Barage
Ritualist: Signet of Spirits
Mesmer: Panic
Necro: Spoil Victor
Paragon: Save yourself
etc.

I've never had a problem to find a pug, when on my ele it is rare that the pug wants to see my build, so I guess they assume that being an ele equals a good build (and yes that isn't always true). I never had complains bout my damage output or felt the person that has been dragged along to come to 8.

My guildy's like to see my ele in the groups we are forming. If it is an elite area or just helping a lower lvl newer member, they are very content with what i'm doing and bring to the team.

So yes, a buff would be nice, it is always nice, but imo it isn't needed at all.

My main is also my Ele. I agree that they are an extremely fun and rewarding class to play. This thread, however, was not created with that in mind. It is focused, rather, entirely on the fact that an Elementalist's damage output in Hard Mode, where the armor of foes makes Elemental damage pathetic, is just that--pathetic.

Furthermore, the quoted post misleading and inaccurate (since when has Spoil Victor been the focus of power Necro builds, as opposed to Mark of Pain?). It tries to supplant empiric data with anecdotal data. It doesn't matter whether your guild is fine with your mediocre damage output from "Seering flames", or the fact that most PuG's are uninformed and inexperienced enough to suppose that Eles still nuke effectively--the fact of the matter is Elementalists are outclassed and out damaged by Keystone Mesmers, MoP Necros and DWG Ritualists without even the faintest ability to provide the same utility those aforementioned classes do. How does the fact that "My guildy's like to see my ele in the groups we are forming" at all mean that Elementalists are effective in High End areas? If you aren't bringing E/Mo and ER Infusing in said areas, or even regular HM areas with a PuG, you are hurting your team.

Just because your allies are more than willing to carry you doesn't mean that they should have to. The Ele is an outdated class, and severely needs an overhaul of some sort.

HigherMinion · Jan 31, 2011, 08:56 AM // 08:56

ER Prot is alot of fun for me, I don't know if I've run another bar for a long time on it.

I think the simple answer is to make each element area-specific to bonus damage. i.e. Destroyers take 1337 damage from cold; Shiverpeak centaur take 1337 damage from Fire and so on. The bonus damage already given is minimal, unlike the double damage Holy deals to Undead foes.

But I'd like to point out that not every profession should be capable of dealing equal amounts of damage. Smiting as a monk shouldn't be superior to another caster's damage. Casters are midline support and are there for the sake of the physicals.

expugnare · Jan 31, 2011, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

ER Prot is alot of fun for me, I don't know if I've run another bar for a long time on it.

I think the simple answer is to make each element area-specific to bonus damage. i.e. Destroyers take 1337 damage from cold; Shiverpeak centaur take 1337 damage from Fire and so on. The bonus damage already given is minimal, unlike the double damage Holy deals to Undead foes.

But I'd like to point out that not every profession should be capable of dealing equal amounts of damage. Smiting as a monk shouldn't be superior to another caster's damage. Casters are midline support and are there for the sake of the physicals.

The problem with giving foes certain weaknesses is as follows. In one scenario, the damage is boosted so tremendously that only Elementalists are used in these areas; in the other scenario, the damage boost is strong, but coupled with the inherent weakness of say, water magic, Elementalists are looked over once again in favor of classes that deal pure, consistent and huge armor ignoring damage in an AoE, wile still providing support.

Also, Smiting monks do out damage Eles... remember RoJway? Every other caster is able to do more damage than Eles and still provide the "midline support" that physicals so desperately crave. The fact of the matter is Elementalists were designed with damage in mind and utility as added icing. Other classes were designed in the opposite fashion. Thus, because they do sub par damage without providing similar utility, there is no reason to ever bring an Elementalist along in a damage dealing role.

Mashiyu · Feb 01, 2011, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by akelarumi

Paragon: Save yourself

Actually SY! is a warrior skill :>

LifeInfusion · Feb 01, 2011, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Panic is not damage. It's superior shutdown in areas where there's tons of mobs because it limits the number of actions that can be done on your party.

Spoil Victor is not serious damage. Mark of Pain and to a lesser extent, Spiteful Spirit are necro DPS-type damage. Feast of corruption, desecrate/defile enchantments are used in spike builds but they're not as strong as Keystone, cry of pain, or Illusion mesmers with clumsiness/ineptitude/etc.

RoJ does more than any Ele damage in HM vs Rangers just with the burning (14DPS).

Admittedly when I first played ele all I did was E/Mo with air blind spam + party heal or blind spam + aegis chain /prot spirit. Later when I completed the campaign I did ER zealot's fire prot + draw conditions spam (at the time you didn't lose 1 energy and draw conditions had 0 recharge plus Ether Renewal could be upkept since it was maintainable or something) and then E/Rt air with restor stuff fueled by ether Prism and Glyph of lesser energy for Factions. It wasn't until Nightfall that healer's boon came along and wrecked any midliner party heal (except N/Rt with Protective was Kaolai). However, in Nightfall NM Searing Flames was pretty much an "I win" button so instead of slotting party heals, I started aegis chaining more and prot spirit.

When HM came around (about a year after NF) I pretty much stopped playing my ele. Then EoTN came with reputation PvE skills which gave me a shot at playing it again.

As the community grows smaller (and with embark Beach) then there is less need for healing since when you hero things you need to do damage.

P.S. ERing is boring unless you only use prot spirit+ Spirit bond+ Shield Guardian instead of p-bond. ERing consists of lighting yourself on fire (burning speed) and maintaining bonds if you run p-bond, which means it is pretty boring since all you do is make sure your energy doesn't hit 0. It's about as boring as a Life Barrier-life bond monk with Balthazar's spirit and blessed signet in the old days of Sorrow's furnace.

Arrogant Bastard · Feb 01, 2011, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

P.S. ERing is boring unless you only use prot spirit+ Spirit bond+ Shield Guardian instead of p-bond. ERing consists of lighting yourself on fire (burning speed) and maintaining bonds if you run p-bond, which means it is pretty boring since all you do is make sure your energy doesn't hit 0. It's about as boring as a Life Barrier-life bond monk with Balthazar's spirit and blessed signet in the old days of Sorrow's furnace.

Burning Speed is for noobs.

HigherMinion · Feb 01, 2011, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

Burning Speed is for noobs.

Lol'd.

Quote:

Also, Smiting monks do out damage Eles... remember RoJway? Every other caster is able to do more damage than Eles and still provide the "midline support" that physicals so desperately crave.

That is what I meant. That shouldn't be *allowed* to happen.

However, an elementalist is still usable with many subpar roles; they're just not meta anymore.

Wards, Weakness and blind spam, knockdowns, 25% armour pen, strong Snares.

I don't understand terribly why you want to re-make the elementalist into something it's not. That's like saying Defile Enchantments needs a buff to 1hitKO foes with an enchant active.

All you do in this thread is say how everyone's ideas are OP and eles will either be used too often or too little still, so I think you can see my point when there are more pressing issues (like nerfing Leadership and buffing Soul Reaping).

@Life- Panic is not damage, but Chaos Storm, Wastrel's, Unnatural Signet, etc. are. Panic is one skill. Rigor Mortis is not damage...

expugnare · Feb 01, 2011, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Seriously... All I want is some modicum of armor penetration so we go from being shoved to somewhat usable. Our DPS currenlt is shit, our utility is too. Buff one of those and make Eleanor viable, but not OP.

Edit: Read the first page of this thread, ( I was the creator of this thread) it is literally a bunch of people shitting on all my suggestions for being OP etc. I've refined many of my ideas since then, however, my point that armor penetration of some sort is vital remains.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 01, 2011, 11:09 PM // 23:09

I will make the claim that elementalists work very well in hardmode if used properly... you simply have to take their needs into account, and most people don't. Melee damage is not spectacular on its own, but when you add in AoHM, splinter, orders, mark of pain, barbs, strength of honor, asuran scan, etc. it becomes superb. why should we expect elementalist damage to be any different? unbuffed, it is not doing that much in hardmode, but with buffs it can do very well. the advantage of the elementalist buffs is that they apply to the entire team at the same time. this is not true of splinter weapon, asuran scan, AoHM, etc. Having said that, Intensity and Elemental Lord are clearly inferior to PvE skills of other professions, and they could use a boost.

I think that any team intending to deal elemental damage should take the following:
enfeebling blood
weaken armor
ebon battle standard of honor
ebon battle standard of wisdom
SNARING (this one in all caps, because no one brings it)

additional damage/recharge buffs:
assassin's promise
by ural's hammer
intensity
elemental lord
air of superiority

proof that this is not just my wild imagination:
Unwaking Waters hardmode, using elementalists for damage, completed in 1:40. No consumables were used.

HigherMinion · Feb 02, 2011, 12:08 AM // 00:08

^that. Along with the fact air spells have penetration already.

LifeInfusion · Feb 02, 2011, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

However, an elementalist is still usable with many subpar roles; they're just not meta anymore.

Wards, Weakness and blind spam, knockdowns, 25% armour pen, strong Snares.
[snip]
@Life- Panic is not damage, but Chaos Storm, Wastrel's, Unnatural Signet, etc. are. Panic is one skill. Rigor Mortis is not damage...

Last I checked weakness from enfeebling blood is better than anything the elementalist can do with regards to weakness.

Knockdowns, save for AOE ones such as Meteor, Earthquake are useless since everyone has YMLAD, brawling headbutt.

When do you see a use for 66% slower speed other than Moddock Crevice?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I will make the claim that elementalists work very well in hardmode if used properly... you simply have to take their needs into account, and most people don't. Melee damage is not spectacular on its own, but when you add in AoHM, splinter, orders, mark of pain, barbs, strength of honor, asuran scan, etc. it becomes superb. why should we expect elementalist damage to be any different? unbuffed, it is not doing that much in hardmode, but with buffs it can do very well. the advantage of the elementalist buffs is that they apply to the entire team at the same time. this is not true of splinter weapon, asuran scan, AoHM, etc. Having said that, Intensity and Elemental Lord are clearly inferior to PvE skills of other professions, and they could use a boost.

I think that any team intending to deal elemental damage should take the following:
enfeebling blood
weaken armor
ebon battle standard of honor
ebon battle standard of wisdom
SNARING (this one in all caps, because no one brings it)

additional damage/recharge buffs:
assassin's promise
by ural's hammer
intensity
elemental lord
air of superiority

proof that this is not just my wild imagination:
Unwaking Waters hardmode, using elementalists for damage, completed in 1:40. No consumables were used.

It can be done faster without builds that only work there (a bunch of AoE eles isn't going to work everywhere since it's gimmicky at best and Mirror of ice doesn't boost damage on AoEs, just the target of the spell) and Kuunavang doesn't have the mass boosted armor of every other foe since it gains +2 levels.

If you did it in 1:40 it means you snared Kuunavang and ganked it. It also doesn't change the fact that your AoEs still will be adjacent (fire storm, snow storm) save for searing flames and Savannah's heat.

Weaken armor doesn't do enough when you can get 40 base from RoJ or 25 from Chaos storm. EbSOH adds +75 (total) to each 5 second AoE. You don't need to devote an entire build to snaring to bring Deep Freeze.

The boost you theorize is intensity+BUH = 1.25^2 = 1.5625x damage at the cost of 2 slots.

What needs to be done is intensity + elemental lord buffed and linked to energy storage for starters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

^that. Along with the fact air spells have penetration already.

yet they do 140 at best with orb (or shellshock -invoke).

UnChosen · Feb 02, 2011, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

proof that this is not just my wild imagination: Unwaking Waters hardmode, using elementalists for damage, completed in 1:40. No consumables were used.

Minion Bomber + Factions = EZ Mode...I thought everyone knows that. There's also a mesmer and a human ranger. Also Unwaking Waters is probably one of the easiest areas for Eles. Now try Destruction's Depths...

Cuilan · Feb 02, 2011, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Weaken armor doesn't do enough when you can get 40 base from RoJ or 25 from Chaos storm. EbSOH adds +75 (total) to each 5 second AoE.

That ward skill does not boost armor ignoring damage.