Curse

Shadowlion · Jan 13, 2011, 10:45 PM // 22:45

i'm not saying they could only dps, but compare to other classes they are a "pure" DPS class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

The punchline is the insanity of elemental damage against players.
Lvl 30 Ele bosses do 1.68x damage (see http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Level) and so do Ritualists with spirit rift. Since attributes are capped at 20, let's assume fireball or Rodgort's Invocation at 20 (147 and 155 respectively). They will do ~250-260 damage with AoE before double damage from being a boss (500-520), Spirit rift will push 290 (double because it's a boss=580). This means wearing one superior rune (~450-530 HP) will get you instagib without prots.

The reason why Save Yourselves is so powerful is you will take -82% from this insane damage making it a manageable 90 or 100 damage at best.

Then let's just lower the HM mob's armor against elemental damages. I think ele works fine in NM PVE now.

Also, warriors and assassins deal a lot of damage, but I don't know much about how did they get over the armor problem? Most of their skills are not armor ignoring, too.

expugnare · Jan 14, 2011, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowlion

i'm not saying they could only dps, but compare to other classes they are a "pure" DPS class.

Then let's just lower the HM mob's armor against elemental damages. I think ele works fine in NM PVE now.

Also, warriors and assassins deal a lot of damage, but I don't know much about how did they get over the armor problem? Most of their skills are not armor ignoring, too.

Warriors have strength, which adds armor penetration. Also, the + damage from all attack skills ignore armor. This means that something that adds +40 dmg on attack will always do that +40 damage. The only thing armor prevents is the base damage from the weapon.

Elementalists, using elemental spells, don't have this same easily accessed Armor Ignoring damage, which is found not only in front-liners, but also in the armor ignoring damage of Necromancers, Ritualists and Mesmers.

The main reason physicals do so much damage is because they have multiple buff venues--AoHM, S+H, Asura Scan, I am the Strongest!, By Ural's Hammer!, Orders-- all of which exponentially increase the damage they are able to do. Furthermore, the damage they do triggers physical "marks" such as Mark of Pain and Barbs, allotting tremendous single target and AoE damage.

I couldn't agree with you more--Ele's dominate Normal Mode, especially in easier areas. The crux of this debate, however, is centered on Hard Mode and Elite Areas, where Elementalists have fallen to disuse. Thus, the proposed "fixes" to the Elementalist class have been posited in an attempt to overhaul our ability to bring an armor ignoring factor to our Elemental damage, in order to compete with other classes in Hard Mode, specifically.

Shadowlion · Jan 14, 2011, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Yeah I agree, I don't do HM much because I can get everything from NM, except farmed some LB points in Nightfall Jahai since NM gave too little when you are reaching the final rank. But I understand ele really needs buff for hard mode. I can also see the problem.

Like many people said, ele bosses are already very deadly, no matter air, fire, earth or water, even in normal mode they are the most dangerous boss type. Ordinary mob group's elementalists are also usually your 1st-2nd target.

Also,will that make them too good for NM? I experienced those bad time for mesmer, no good damage dealing especially lack of AOE, pointless eng deg. Assassin also once sucks, especially in faction missions they are so easy to get killed by Affliction Explosion/Sliver Armor.

I think it's better to do some work on HM mob's armor against elemental damage rather than ele's own skills.

expugnare · Jan 14, 2011, 01:15 AM // 01:15

This is why most of the suggested changes have been appended to PvE only, Elementalist only skills, such as Intensity or Elemental Lord.

Giving Intensity or Elemental Lord armor penetration or increased damage, with duration or effectiveness limited by Energy Storage would prevent anyone--even Elementalist bosses and heroes--who aren't player Elementalist primaries from reaping the benefits of the ability.

Shadowlion · Jan 14, 2011, 01:22 AM // 01:22

But if I'm not wrong other classes can use these PVE skills as well.

Kunder · Jan 14, 2011, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Warrior's Strength bonus is pretty pathetic in the vast majority of cases. It only becomes all that effective in a scythe warrior build that both spams skills and has an exceedingly high base damage to work with (scythe + AoHM). The other case of physicals with high armor-affected damage is a scythe sin build, which is quite similar (main damage being scythe + AoHM lol).

Every other Physical build doing big damage relies primarily on buffs. Strength of Honor (+20), Order of Pain (+15), Barbs (+15), EBSoH (+15), and to top it off Asuran scan and By Urals Hammer (+75%/+25%, and most importantly it multiplies the other skills before it). Given these buffs, a warrior with 33% IAS deals a minimum of 93 armor-ignoring DPS before Asuran scan. After Asuran Scan, the warrior does a massive 160 DPS with nothing but an IAS and a 1 damage sword. And THATS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE END OF IT. We have the AoE ridiculousness of Splinter Weapon (Turn an AoE attack into an armor-ignoring 250-ish damage nuke every 5 seconds) and Mark of Pain (40 AoE damage every time a physical attack hits, and with the effects of an AoE attack and abilities like Hundred blades or Splinter weapon, your AoE damage goes up exponentially as enemies accumulate).

What do caster classes (in general) have to boost damage? By Urals Hammer and EBSoH. Thats it. And on top of that, they cast spells significantly slower than physical classes attack, so they get the bonus damage less often. Ele has intensity as its own PvE class skill booster, but its a joke. Even if it lasted longer than its recharge it would still not make Ele's competitive.

LifeInfusion · Jan 14, 2011, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowlion

i'm not saying they could only dps, but compare to other classes they are a "pure" DPS class.

Then let's just lower the HM mob's armor against elemental damages. I think ele works fine in NM PVE now.

Also, warriors and assassins deal a lot of damage, but I don't know much about how did they get over the armor problem? Most of their skills are not armor ignoring, too.

My monk with splinter weapon cast on him (since I use a spear), using a bar with no attacks, does more than my ele in HM if my ele doesn't use pve skills and weaken armor/BUH!. In fact on my ele I try to spear as much as possible.

The only reason why Eles are half decent in Normal mode is because mobs typically have 60 armor to elemental damage (or less) unless they are rangers or warriors. Elemental damage does ~1.3x listed damage to stuff with 40 armor.

In theory EBSoH (+15) helps Eles too, but DoT AoEs cause scatter and the spells have 20+ cooldown.

P.S.:
And I don't see why people complain about mesmers. I play mesmer in pve too, just on my alt account. On my main account I have a pvp mesmer that's been used quite often.

Mistrust, Wandering eye, Clumsiness, Ineptitude, overload, cry of frustration, Signet of Clumsiness, Keystone signet, Energy Surge, Shatter delusions (combine with mind wrack or Phantom Pain), Unnatural signet, Wastrel's Worry, Wastrel's Demise, Visions of Regret etc. are AoEs in lines with disruption and/or utility. There's variants like Fevered Dreams + Fragility+Frustration. You also have cry of pain, which is unlinked and Chaos storm, which does more than all the elementalist AoEs in HM against rangers and anything with armor.

For single target you have power spike, calculated risk, accumulated pain, Spiritual pain, images of remorse, energy burn (okay this sucks), empathy (lol).

What needs to be done first is linking AoHM for scythes to mysticism. It's ironic that Illusionary Weaponry was supposed to be "damage" (40ish isn't even close to "damage"). Now we have stuff that puts out 75DPS for 0 energy (SoS) without buffs, melee with 39DPS just using SoH+ asuran scan.

expugnare · Jan 14, 2011, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowlion

But if I'm not wrong other classes can use these PVE skills as well.

Yes, they *can* use them, but with the proposed changes, they would be absolutely worthless to any other class. To explain--Critical Agility:

Critical Agility

* 5 Energy
* 1 Activation
* 30 Recharge

Enchantment Spell. For 4 seconds and 1 second for each rank of Critical Strikes, you attack 33% faster and gain 15...25 armor. This skill reapplies itself every time you land a critical hit.

Now, any class *can* use critical agility. However, since only Assassin's can place points into Critical Strikes, the enchantment will only last a measly four seconds (discounting use of +enchanting suffixes, and whatnot). This is not long enough to get a critical strike to refresh the enchantment, and thus it is a waste on anyone but an Assassin.

Thus, the proposed changes to Intensity would be similar:
Enchantment Spell. For 2 seconds and 2 second for each rank of Energy Storage, your Elementalist spells [take your pick: deal 20-40% more damage based on Sunspear rank, penetrate 50% of foes armor, deal armor ignoring damage, etc. etc. whatever]. This skill reapplies itself every time you use an Elementalist spell on a target.

Thus, by using Intensity, the character would be forced to 1) have an investment in Energy Storage for it to last more than 2 seconds and 2) use Elementalist spells. This would essentially restrict its usage to Elementalist primaries using Elementalist skills. Since the Skill is PvE only, Heroes and Bosses would be unable to use it, avoid the nasty side effects mentioned earlier in the post.

Shadowlion · Jan 14, 2011, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Honestly I will like heroes to have the same buff...

expugnare · Jan 14, 2011, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowlion

Honestly I will like heroes to have the same buff...

Everyone would want PvE skills for their heroes--imagine hero henching with 8 Ebon Vanguard Assassin Supports.... The already laughably easy realm of PvE would be just that much more unchallenging.

Lanier · Jan 14, 2011, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Why limit the armor penetrating properties to ele primaries only? Other professions (necros, rits, dervs, and monks) have access to elemental damage and having one of the suggested changes on a universal PvE skill like BuH would allow skills like channeled strike and deathly swarm to compete more with the armor ignoring options from each profession.

Shadowlion · Jan 14, 2011, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by expugnare

Everyone would want PvE skills for their heroes--imagine hero henching with 8 Ebon Vanguard Assassin Supports.... The already laughably easy realm of PvE would be just that much more unchallenging.

I mean make some change to let ele hero can also benefit from it. That's why I support lower HM mob's armor.

AndrewSX · Jan 14, 2011, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Still, apart the (huge) "HM mob armor/lack of AP" problem, i think that a lot of ele skills should be reworked. Some skills are simply pathetic imo, and i'm not only talking about Second Wind(top 3 worst elite in gw lol).

Lucian · Jan 19, 2011, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by expugnare

Thus, the proposed changes to Intensity would be similar:
Enchantment Spell. For 2 seconds and 2 second for each rank of Energy Storage, your Elementalist spells [take your pick: deal 20-40% more damage based on Sunspear rank, penetrate 50% of foes armor, deal armor ignoring damage, etc. etc. whatever]. This skill reapplies itself every time you use an Elementalist spell on a target.

I would die to have this.

It would be so nice to actually be able to play my elementalist as an elementalist. It really is sad that they just let this class linger in the land of uselessness when such a simple fix like that would mean so much.

My ele is currently my favorite character (mostly for aesthetic reasons) and more times than not, while grinding titles, she runs with either a full Rit bar with spirits, or the AP/Ebon Vanguard Assassin build. I sometimes go back to NM Tyria with her just to let her go out, with a bar full of fire, and BLOW STUFF UP!

Mouse at Large · Jan 20, 2011, 08:21 AM // 08:21

In the debate over whether to change mobs AP or rework Intensity, I'm firmly on the side of reworking Intensity.

To paraphrase someone else said on one of the multiple threads on this general subject - "If the problem is with regard to a specific class i.e. the Elementalist's effectiveness against HM mobs, then you don't need to change the mobs, you need to change the Elementalists"

Personally, I don't care if it does not effect my elementalist heroes as long as it makes human controlled eles more attractive/effective in groups

Kunder · Jan 20, 2011, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

To paraphrase someone else said on one of the multiple threads on this general subject - "If the problem is with regard to a specific class i.e. the Elementalist's effectiveness against HM mobs, then you don't need to change the mobs, you need to change the Elementalists"

The problem isn't with just Elementalists. All characters are gimped by the high armor, either directly or indirectly. Even Warriors/Assassins/Necros/Rits, the most powerful classes in PvE now, have problems making effective HM builds unless they are using the rock-paper-scissors equivalent of a nuclear bomb that is a select set of ridiculously overpowered skills.

AndrewSX · Jan 20, 2011, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

The problem isn't with just Elementalists. All characters are gimped by the high armor, either directly or indirectly. Even Warriors/Assassins/Necros/Rits, the most powerful classes in PvE now, have problems making effective HM builds unless they are using the rock-paper-scissors equivalent of a nuclear bomb that is a select set of ridiculously overpowered skills.

QFT, but at least Warriors/Assassins/Necros/Rits have this option.
Eles don't.

maxxfury · Jan 20, 2011, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

QFT, but at least Warriors/Assassins/Necros/Rits have this option.
Eles don't.

Semi-Devils advocate:

Tho it may not make up for what ppl seem to think what the elem should be doing....blowing stuff up..

But they FILL red bars and keep them full better than just about anything!

AndrewSX · Jan 20, 2011, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Semi-Devils advocate:

Tho it may not make up for what ppl see what the elem should be doin....blowing stuff up..

But they FILL red bars and keep them full better than just about anything!

I guess you're thinking about any kind of ER bar, composed by ER, Aura of Restoration and rest in secondary class skills for heal/prot.
It's very effective, true, but seems a nonsense to me that the prof designed to be the best nuker have to do it to be useful...

GW is strange. Monks/Nec/Mez nuke, Sin tank everything and..Eles heal/prot. lol?

Vazze · Jan 21, 2011, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

GW is strange. Monks/Nec/Mez nuke, Sin tank everything and..Eles heal/prot. lol?

Haha, anet's idea of "fun" maybe?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

...a nuclear bomb that is a select set of ridiculously overpowered skills.

Stop complaining, a year or two ago you only had 2-3 OP skills, now you you have a "select set"! PvE balance ftw.