Curse

Xenomortis · Jun 17, 2010, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight Sands

No it doesnt... Gain from armor is depreciating both ways.

If target AL is 60 they receive 100% damage.
If target AL is 60 and they re affected by cracked armor they now suffer 141% damage (41% increase).

If target AL is 100 they receive 50% damage.
If target AL is 100 and they are affected by cracked armor they now suffer 71% damage (21% increase).

If it worked the way you think it did it would be ridiculously imba in PvP, though shell shock/ca is alr v. strong...

Take the damage multiplier applied when someone has 100 AL (it's 0.5).
Take the damage multiplier applied when someone has 80 AL (1/sqrt(2) = 0.707)
Divide.
0.707 / 0.5 = 1.141 - in fact: (1/sqrt(2)) / (1/2) = sqrt(2).

Every increase of 40 in AL reduces the damage you take by a half.
i.e. from a base of 60 (which is defined such that the damage multiplier is 1), having 100 armour halves the damage you take. From that 100, having another 40 reduces the damage by a half again resulting in you taking only a quarter of the damage you'd take at 60 (1/2 * 1/2 = 1/4).
Similarly, someone with 80 armour takes only around 71% of the damage someone with 60 will take. Someone with 100 armour will again, take about 71% of the damage someone with 80 will take.

Every 20 increase in armour results in the damage you would have taken being multiplied by 1/sqrt(2) = sqrt(2)/2

WhiteAsIce · Jun 18, 2010, 12:32 AM // 00:32

This is so funny. You are all missing the point where Cracked Armor cannot reduce AL below 60.

maxxfury · Jun 18, 2010, 12:53 AM // 00:53

If you look, Xeno only used the example of 100 and 80 Armour to do the damage calculation with ^ So im sure, Xeno didnt miss that fact :P Just never stated is as it is (or i thought it was) common knowledge.

Xenomortis · Jun 18, 2010, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

If you look, Xeno only used the example of 100 and 80 Armour to do the damage calculation with ^ So im sure, Xeno didnt miss that fact :P Just never stated is as it is (or i thought it was) common knowledge.

It's largely irrelevant anyway, given most enemies in HM have more than 60 armour (and indeed often beyond 80), hence all the whining from Elementalists.
Besides, Cracked Armour isn't the only source of armour reduction (although it is the one of the only ways to lower the armour of your target).

If an enemy's AL is less than 80 (i.e. CA is less than the general 41% damage increase) then it means that the enemy you're fighting isn't particularly resistant anyway and the Elementalist has very little to cry about.

I wasn't really responding to the CA comment though, but the general mess that was someone else's post on armour calculations.

Mashiyu · Jun 18, 2010, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight Sands

If target AL is 60 they receive 100% damage.
If target AL is 60 and they re affected by cracked armor they now suffer 141% damage (41% increase).
If target AL is 100 they receive 50% damage.
If target AL is 100 and they are affected by cracked armor they now suffer 71% damage (21% increase).

Dealing 71[%] instead of 50[%] dmg is still an increase of 41% as the base is 50[%], not 100[%].

So, speaking in relative dmg increase, CA is on all mobs with >= 80AL equally good.

Edit: Also, you should not forget that you dont deal more dmg with CA - you just deal less less dmg.

Voodoo Rage · Jun 18, 2010, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Just as an aside, I just rolled through Nightfall with my new ele and the ER Protection Spammer build is just ridiculously OP. I'd have a hard time envisioning any buff that would make this build a secondary choice that also doesn't make the entire class imbalanced.

Cuilan · Jun 18, 2010, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Full elementalist teams gogogogogogo! Ele tank, ele nukers with armor ignoring damage, and Ether Renewal healers!

UnChosen · Jun 18, 2010, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

Just as an aside, I just rolled through Nightfall with my new ele and the ER Protection Spammer build is just ridiculously OP. I'd have a hard time envisioning any buff that would make this build a secondary choice that also doesn't make the entire class imbalanced.

Its also hard to envision any paragon buff that would make imbagon the secondary choice, yet Anet is going to do it anyways. Not everyone in the game likes to play with a single decent build in an entire class....

Arato · Jun 19, 2010, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

They aren't far worse because many of those can be solved by party synergy or playing well. At least elementalist damage is sure to happen and don't often have much requirements. That requirement part makes up for the casting time to some extent.

As if the requirement for most used punishing hexes are hard to meet. Mobs don't stop attacking when affected by Empathy or Spiteful Spirit or Insidious Parasite, they attack right through them, and in hard mode, they attack at an accelerated rate, making spiteful spirit trigger a ton of times.

So in hard mode, sources of armor ignoring damage deal MORE damage than they do in normal mode possibly, while sources of elemental damage deal less. Hard mode does not affect everyone equally.

Quote:

Just as an aside, I just rolled through Nightfall with my new ele and the ER Protection Spammer build is just ridiculously OP. I'd have a hard time envisioning any buff that would make this build a secondary choice that also doesn't make the entire class imbalanced.

Not many people make an elementalist with a desire to heal or prot. The point is, when a class's intended role is a damage dealer and they fail at that, it's no compensation to a lot of people to turn around and say "but they make awesome infusers/protters!" It's no compensation at all. If you want to heal or prot, you should be rolling a monk.

Cuilan · Jun 19, 2010, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Amusing. You mention reactive hexes and believe all foes attack, which they don't always do much and sometimes not at all. Elemental damage happens while hexes may not go off much or at all from proactive damage or physicals. You've previously mentioned RoJ, which is nice, but is very limited from it's attribute line.

The grass is always greener on the other side, I guess.

Even though there are still new players and those without the profession, there are many more who have most of the professions and are perfectly happy with having another character roll as various things such as monking.

maxxfury · Jun 19, 2010, 11:02 PM // 23:02

You could always take a GoR bar with Mark of pain et all and Mop Nuke... IT a little less epic that the necro/a version but it still out puts a shitton of damage with physicals. And likely with its leveraged nature and the right team will crap all over the normal elem nukes. But then thats not an ele build and requires you to bring your self some physicals

but it does work as a damage dealer. Sure Jeydra posted a version of it he used a while back..(apologies if ive got the wrong person

)

UnChosen · Jun 20, 2010, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Amusing. You mention reactive hexes and believe all foes attack, which they don't always do much and sometimes not at all. Elemental damage happens while hexes may not go off much or at all from proactive damage or physicals. You've previously mentioned RoJ, which is nice, but is very limited from it's attribute line.

The grass is always greener on the other side, I guess.

Even though there are still new players and those without the profession, there are many more who have most of the professions and are perfectly happy with having another character roll as various things such as monking.

Elementalist skills "always happens" because they have long cast time and recharge, as well as huge energy costs...that's their "trade off". Having long cast time/recharge, higher energy costs AND low damage is in no way better than having a few "conditions" that can be met easily when using the other classes.

Warriors and Sins also have unconditional damages, so let's nerf them. Oh wait, they have other trade offs just like the eles.

As for the RoJ argument...I think smite needs a buff as well, and RoJ needs a bit of a nerf. But you know what? I would gladly accept Anet nerfing 99% of the current ele skills and make them even more useless and buff a few of them so that I can have a few decent damage builds.

Cuilan · Jun 20, 2010, 12:30 AM // 00:30

I wasn't aware having skills hit for 0 or having to wait was so superior.

Voodoo Rage · Jun 20, 2010, 01:07 AM // 01:07

The other thing to consider is how you affect play in NM and lower end areas. I'd be curious what percentage of GW players are playing elite areas in HM. Right now Elementalists are pretty spectacular at blowing up mobs in NM. If you start adding a bunch of armor penetration and other buffs, it's also going to seriously imbalance the class.

I'd like to see Intensity be permanently maintainable with a 20% enchantment mod AND significant investment in Energy Storage (only Elementalists will use it). I'd like to see it give armor penetration but only effective on higher level foes OR just make it convert all Elemental damage to straight armor ignoring damage.

UnChosen · Jun 20, 2010, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

The other thing to consider is how you affect play in NM and lower end areas. I'd be curious what percentage of GW players are playing elite areas in HM. Right now Elementalists are pretty spectacular at blowing up mobs in NM. If you start adding a bunch of armor penetration and other buffs, it's also going to seriously imbalance the class.

I'd like to see Intensity be permanently maintainable with a 20% enchantment mod AND significant investment in Energy Storage (only Elementalists will use it). I'd like to see it give armor penetration but only effective on higher level foes OR just make it convert all Elemental damage to straight armor ignoring damage.

Its fine to consider possible problems, but it doesn't mean Anet should just ignore the entire class. If they don't want NM to become too easy, then they can just add an armor penetration cap to 60 in NM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I wasn't aware having skills hit for 0 or having to wait was so superior.

DoTAoE ele skills can also hit for 0 if the mob moves around. Hell, some of the best single target skills that eles have, like lightning orb, can actually MISS the target unless you wait for it to stop moving. Seriously, I thought we are trying to promote kiting and other skills in this game, why does the eles skill seem to encourage people to stay still and take hits is beyond me.

Cuilan · Jun 20, 2010, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Basically reward players for playing badly.

If monks are the only profession allowed to keep a party from exploding and elementalists the primary damage casters, that leaves what? Not as much.

Arato · Jun 20, 2010, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Amusing. You mention reactive hexes and believe all foes attack, which they don't always do much and sometimes not at all. Elemental damage happens while hexes may not go off much or at all from proactive damage or physicals. You've previously mentioned RoJ, which is nice, but is very limited from it's attribute line.

The grass is always greener on the other side, I guess.

Even though there are still new players and those without the profession, there are many more who have most of the professions and are perfectly happy with having another character roll as various things such as monking.

Amusing, spiteful spirit punishes not only attacking, but also skill and spell usage.

I don't know about you, but I don't know of any mobs that when hexed with spiteful spirit, move away from a group and not use any skills or attacks so as to not trigger it the way you seem to suggest mobs do.

The conditions are so easily fulfilled they're not worth mentioning.

Something like backfire, where they in particular have to use a spell, or ulcerous lungs, where they have to specifically use a shout. Those are conditions in which you have to play smart about using the hexes to get any benefit out of them. But spiteful spirit, vor, empathy, and insidious parasite are so easy to fulfill it's just not worth mentioning that they have a condition to fulfill.

Seriously the easiest way to beat some hard mode solo quests is to put empathy on it and let it attack you. Augury rock today as the zmission, 10 seconds and you get 100 copper zcoins, just put empathy on and wait.

Also there are totally unconditional armor ignoring damage skills as well. E-surge is what, 90ish damage aoe for 5 energy? That's nearly twice the damage of a searing flames against a high armor target (generally 47-53 damage), and about the same damage as searing flames vs a caster in hard mode (generally 89 damage (these are unbuffed mind you but both spells can be buffed so I compare unbuffed numbers), for a third of the energy cost (though it does have a longer cooldown).. oh and searing flames is conditional damage too, it's not guaranteed to happen.

WhiteAsIce · Jun 20, 2010, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Basically reward players for playing badly.

If monks are the only profession allowed to keep a party from exploding and elementalists the primary damage casters, that leaves what? Not as much.

It's sad when the best PvE build for a Ranger is a melee build.

ZenRgy · Jun 20, 2010, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

ightning orb, can actually MISS the target unless you wait for it to stop moving. Seriously, I thought we are trying to promote kiting and other skills in this game, why does the eles skill seem to encourage people to stay still and take hits is beyond me.

Lightning Orb doesn't promote kiting?

Wat?

Xenomortis · Jun 20, 2010, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

Amusing, spiteful spirit punishes not only attacking, but also skill and spell usage.

I don't know about you, but I don't know of any mobs that when hexed with spiteful spirit, move away from a group and not use any skills or attacks so as to not trigger it the way you seem to suggest mobs do.

None do. So it becomes reasonable to measure Spiteful Spirit as a pure damage skill, to which it doesn't measure up too well. Its power decreases as your team's power increases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

Seriously the easiest way to beat some hard mode solo quests is to put empathy on it and let it attack you. Augury rock today as the zmission, 10 seconds and you get 100 copper zcoins, just put empathy on and wait.

Not at all surprising. The power level of your team is incredibly low (it only consists of one person after all). It's for that reason the Solo-missions are some of the worst in Guild Wars and a poor reflection on the game as a whole.