Curse

NerfHerder · May 26, 2010, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Ive been playing for GW for just over 4 years now. Except for a few SC runs or PvP, I havent used my Ele much in the past 1-2 years. Did they get nerfed? No, they just got left behind in the power creep. I dont think they need a huge buff or rework. HM is fine the way it is, even if we buff a few Ele skills. I've even accepted the fact that Anet does not want you to solo farm unless your an SoS Rt, W/N Raptor farmer, or A/Mo Veattir farmer(yeah i know theres more but you get the point). Heres my two cents:

PvE Skills
I like the idea of Intensity adding damage to Ele skills only and being more maintainable. I dont like the idea of the best Ele builds revolving around non Ele skills.(ie. AP caller and ER infuser)

Air Magic
Im sure ill get flammed for this but, Air Magic could use some help in the PvE. The spike damage just isnt enough to compete with SF Nuker, DwG, or Spirit Spammer. If the goal is balance, it shouldnt matter which attunement you bring. They should all do roughly the same DPS and be just as effective, but in different ways. To fix this I would suggest adding more AoE damage to a few Air Magic skills. For instance, turn Shell Shock into the Ele equivalent of Weaken Armor +dmg and make Invoke Lightning and Chain Lightning an Area of effect. With the right tweaking something along those lines could make an Air Magic build worth taking into PvE.

Earth Magic
Well after the treatment OB Flesh and Sliver Armor recieved(due to exploitation by other classes), I dont think we will be getting any love here. But it would be nice if Ele's got an Earth Equivalent of SF Nuker.

Fire Magic
I like Fire Magic just the way it is.

Water Magic
I always liked that there was some synergy between some Water and Air Magic skills. Maybe buffing a few of those skills could breathe some life back into both Air and Water Magic. Maybe a team build revolving around the synergy of Air and Water Eles. Or even the combination of all four attunements combined being more effective than 4 SF Nukers. Im sorry I was thinking outside the box again.

Energy Storage
I really dont see any issues here either.

I dont think these changes need to be implemented right away. As a matter of fact its alot easier to load my skill templates when I only need two for my Ele.

Even if changes like these dont make the next meta, there is alot of room to make the Ele more fun and effective.

Lanier · May 27, 2010, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Probably the biggest problem in HM is the high armor of the enemies there. Most other classes have ways to bypass armor with armor ignoring damage or attack skills, but eles do not have this option. For a quick and easy fix, I think that Anet should decrease the armor bonus that monsters get in HM and replace it with a little bit of a health bonus. This way, the elemental, armor effecting damage done by eles would be closer to the armor ignoring options available to other profs.

Arato · May 27, 2010, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

I was talking about general HM PvE. Then the topic shifted to SC. For some reason you think spike can only be involving AP, single target damage and one character.

L2p. With cons and red rock candies it's no longer 2s cast. With personal cons, EBSoH and BUH! it's way beyond 70 damage. I dunno why you are using Assassin's Promise when there is Air of Superiority which will always trigger full skill recharge on spikes. Lol'd at 90s pulls. Your posts just show how little you know.

It's sad that people like yourself will rather QQ than get a clue.

It wasn't. He is just terrible to believe that Ele spikes deal 50-70 damage.

SEARING FLAMES deals 50-70 damage in hard mode against warrior/paragon/rangers.

Also, giving up AP for Air of Superiority.. now I'm putting all my faith not in timing of a cast (as dodgy as that can be depending on many factors) but entirely on luck. That's just swell.

I'm messing with it now in a dungeon and so far the times I've gotten instant recharges vs the times I'm sitting there looking at a bar all cooling down and unable to do much aside from attack just makes it not worth it for general use.

Basing a class's relative power on consets and luck doesn't help much for your day to day regular joe elementalist.

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PvE Skills
I like the idea of Intensity adding damage to Ele skills only and being more maintainable. I dont like the idea of the best Ele builds revolving around non Ele skills.(ie. AP caller and ER infuser)

It would be nice if intensity was looked at, the fact that it's completely outclassed by by ural's hammer and only benefit being that you can stack it WITH BUH, but that lends to a bar of like 2 spells, and the other 6 skills being skills to support those 2 spells.

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Air Magic
Im sure ill get flammed for this but, Air Magic could use some help in the PvE. The spike damage just isnt enough to compete with SF Nuker, DwG, or Spirit Spammer. If the goal is balance, it shouldnt matter which attunement you bring. They should all do roughly the same DPS and be just as effective, but in different ways. To fix this I would suggest adding more AoE damage to a few Air Magic skills. For instance, turn Shell Shock into the Ele equivalent of Weaken Armor +dmg and make Invoke Lightning and Chain Lightning an Area of effect. With the right tweaking something along those lines could make an Air Magic build worth taking into PvE.

Not really flamed but I do disagree, air is pretty solid for doing what it was designed to do. There are some minor changes I'd like to see to air magic however. Invoke Lightning used to be a substantial upgrade from chain lightning, as chain lightning always caused exhaustion, and cost more energy to begin with, but an update reduced the differences between the non elite and elite to 16 damage at 16 air magic. Not really substantial enough to make it elite. If it could say, hit another target or 2, cause a condition (burning maybe? lightning does start fires and it's one condition that can't already be caused by air), faster cast time, shorter recharge, just something to make it more set apart from CL. The other change would be making thunderclap's daze not have that 3s delay, though this is usually not an issue, it has at times caused the spell to be pretty much wasted. Final change is lightning hammer. It's a very niche skill atm, costing more than lightning orb, and not dealing cracked armor. It's benefits are limited to not being a projectile, and useful to use with auspicious incantation, but I've seen very few air builds that utilize that combo as it's generally unnecessary, air has better e management than the other attributes.

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Earth Magic
Well after the treatment OB Flesh and Sliver Armor recieved(due to exploitation by other classes), I dont think we will be getting any love here. But it would be nice if Ele's got an Earth Equivalent of SF Nuker.

I think earth is fine, the only problem with earth is that while it makes a very powerful tank, SF assassins edge it out by a narrow margin, but it looks like changes keep happening to erase that margin (though it hurt eles a little bit at the same time with sliver armor). Though it would be nice to see balance between obsidian flesh and shadow form. +20 armor is insignificant vs damage absorption when a Obsidian tank will usually use a skill like great dwarf's armor, or armor of earth that overwrites it. 25 energy cost vs 5 energy cost, -2 energy regen vs no energy regen penalty, and damage cap on attacks and skills vs not being able to attack at all (and usually an earth tank's bar will be so loaded with defensive enchantments that they can't devote many slots to offensive spells, not to mention not being able to tag a fleeing/aggro breaking mob with an attack to bring it back to you). The energy cost and degen are usually easily dealt with, stone striker and mantra of earth cause you to have 0 energy problems unless hit by a stance removing skill, or being interrupted while casting stone striker by a ranger. The skill works well for what it's designed to do, but it's hard not to compare the two skills and not have grass is greener syndrome.

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Fire Magic
I like Fire Magic just the way it is.

and most of my complaints are in this attribute. Long cooldowns on what should be your bread and butter skills for a fire build, varying ranges of aoe that are often surpassed by other classes and often cause scatter, and low damage in hard mode.

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Water Magic
I always liked that there was some synergy between some Water and Air Magic skills. Maybe buffing a few of those skills could breathe some life back into both Air and Water Magic. Maybe a team build revolving around the synergy of Air and Water Eles. Or even the combination of all four attunements combined being more effective than 4 SF Nukers. Im sorry I was thinking outside the box again.

Water needs the most help in pve. Controlling movement speed is inferior to just balling things up and blowing them up, and water is easily the lowest damage attribute, particularly in hard mode. Not to mention the most valuable snare in the entire attribute requires 0 water magic to use effectively as a snare, only the damage is boosted, and the damage is low regardless.

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Energy Storage
I really dont see any issues here either.

Too many redundant or overshadowed elites that nobody uses. I've seen people use elemental attunement (with another attunement), and ether renewal, but that's about it.

Myotheraccount · May 27, 2010, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

SEARING FLAMES deals 50-70 damage in hard mode against warrior/paragon/rangers.

Also, giving up AP for Air of Superiority.. now I'm putting all my faith not in timing of a cast (as dodgy as that can be depending on many factors) but entirely on luck. That's just swell.

I'm messing with it now in a dungeon and so far the times I've gotten instant recharges vs the times I'm sitting there looking at a bar all cooling down and unable to do much aside from attack just makes it not worth it for general use.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. Stop being so autistically stubborn. Nobody uses Searing Flames in serious SCs and AoS ALWAYS triggers skill recharge on spikes because large pulls are killed in one go. Without AoS there is no way you can spike in quick succession which you will have to do. Searing Flames is used by teams who can't make tight balls which it compensates for with it's large range. Spammability helps in case you need to get rid of stray stuff which again won't ever happen if you pull properly. In other words a spiking skill for bad people hence commonly referred to as Shitterflames. SH > Meteor > Rodgort is a better spike in general.

I couldn't care less what you are testing right now. You clearly don't know and don't want to know how Ele should be played properly. The world doesn't revolve around you so allow for a possibility that you suck (which is exactly the case).

Quote:

Basing a class's relative power on consets and luck doesn't help much for your day to day regular joe elementalist.

You will need to bring various cons and "luck" in SCs regardless in order to achieve good results. AoE pulses always required a certain degree of organisation to be fully efficient because of scatter - a trade-off for their power. Eles always had the strongest AoE spells as far as damage goes and it's still the case.

Their DPS on other hand is lacking that's why they take support roles in casual stuff where DPS is favoured. But Eles were never supposed to be a heavy DPS class.

In SCs, the problem is with the range, not the damage. Most Ele spells have Adjacent range and I already said what arises from that.

At any rate, Ele damage is good, Ele AoE is fine and they are very much useful and part of meta so your argument is invalid. You are just a typical QQer. Even if devs give you BAMPH!, you will say it's underpowered because it's not AoE. Lol

Essence Snow · May 27, 2010, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Still laughing....lol.....I love my ele but have to admit she is horrible when it comes to HM dmg. Compared to my other chars....necro, ranger, monk, ritualist, war, and now (to some degree) even my mesmer, she is weak. Yes, with a bar full of support and a load of cons I can make her dmg decent, but why would I when I can do the same on another char to make the dmg outrageous? I guess thats why I have mutiple professions, so I don't have to play one where it is weak. An instance where my ele shines though, as many know, ER....in cases where enchant stripping is not rampant she out performs my monk anyday of the week.

Jeydra · May 27, 2010, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Their DPS on other hand is lacking that's why they take support roles in casual stuff where DPS is favoured. But Eles were never supposed to be a heavy DPS class.

What do you mean they were never supposed to be a heavy DPS class? What, then, do you call this?

Arato · May 27, 2010, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

You have no idea what you’re talking about. Stop being so autistically stubborn. Nobody uses Searing Flames in serious SCs and AoS ALWAYS triggers skill recharge on spikes because large pulls are killed in one go. Without AoS there is no way you can spike in quick succession which you will have to do. Searing Flames is used by teams who can't make tight balls which it compensates for with it's large range. Spammability helps in case you need to get rid of stray stuff which again won't ever happen if you pull properly. In other words a spiking skill for bad people hence commonly referred to as Shitterflames. SH > Meteor > Rodgort is a better spike in general.

I couldn't care less what you are testing right now. You clearly don't know and don't want to know how Ele should be played properly. The world doesn't revolve around you so allow for a possibility that you suck (which is exactly the case).

You will need to bring various cons and "luck" in SCs regardless in order to achieve good results. AoE pulses always required a certain degree of organisation to be fully efficient because of scatter - a trade-off for their power. Eles always had the strongest AoE spells as far as damage goes and it's still the case.

Their DPS on other hand is lacking that's why they take support roles in casual stuff where DPS is favoured. But Eles were never supposed to be a heavy DPS class.

In SCs, the problem is with the range, not the damage. Most Ele spells have Adjacent range and I already said what arises from that.

At any rate, Ele damage is good, Ele AoE is fine and they are very much useful and part of meta so your argument is invalid. You are just a typical QQer. Even if devs give you BAMPH!, you will say it's underpowered because it's not AoE. Lol

What I meant is that you say Elementalist recharges don't need a buff because if you use consets and get lucky on instant recharge skills, your recharges are reasonable if not instant. You're basing the reasonableness of the recharge rates on skills not based on the skills themselves, but on secondary class/pve only skill/consets, not ele skills themselves.

I generally don't use SF myself, because I find the damage to be absolutely terrible. WHen I use fire as a nuker I use MS+Searing Heat+Tenai's Heat

In normal mode. Stuff blows up before I get the second heat off most times, so I have the other heat to use in another pull if I didn't get a recharge.

In hard mode. stuff is still standing after all 3 spells have been cast, and I'm sitting on 3 recharging spells with a bar full of support skills for those 3 spells and not really much else I can do (Fire Attune, mark of rodgort (particularly as a cover hex for AP) or weaken armor (if I use AoS instead), AP or AoS, BUH, and Glyph of Sacrifice (If I don't use AP as my elite I use savannah heat instead of one of the copied heats))

I'm saying that in normal mode I'm getting heat pulses in the 50's, with the tooltip saying 42 a second, but in hard mode I'm getting heat pulses in the teens and 20's.

You're trying to say you never get those low pulses, or that those low pulses are "good damage"

On a side note. I don't think there's a real way to play an elementalist as an elementalist in a hard mode destroyer dungeon and do solid aoe damage. Well I tried winter and fire magic but PuGs wouldn't take me because while they may be too ignorant to realize winter changes the damage to cold, and I wasn't using any skills that relied on burning, they do know that destroyers don't burn and are resistant to fire damage.. tried earth and they're pretty much as resistant to that as they are fire.. water.. even though they're supposedly vulnerable to water, the damage on water is so low that it's a joke anyway.

Anyway, while yes, you can use consets to do SC's of UW, FoW, and DoA, to make up for the lacking of reasonable recharges and activation times of the default skills..

who uses consets in dungeons? I'm not sure of it since I've never used consets in dungeons.. but don't they wipe after each level?

Just at MoD, a DWG rit build was doing about 148 dps, weaken armor +ms+savannah heat+searing heat did 169 dps (in 10s spikes, (no cons, no other party members), obviously since AoS won't proc there the ele damage is unsustainable, while the DWG damage is, it wasn't really fair to compare sustainability in that environment), which looks great, (aside from the lack of sustainability without instant recharges), it's too bad there's no HM AL MoD to really test at but I can already assure you the DWG will do more (and more sustainable), the margin against a 60 AL target isn't high enough that when everything gets more armor the ele can't stay ahead.

FoxBat · May 27, 2010, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Just for fun we did a run through eotn missions on hard mode with half the party being ele nukers. PvE skills that did armor-ignoring damage were not allowed. We pulled out all stops with cracked armor, winter, and ebon vanguard wards. While doable it was definitely slow and challenging, particularly destroyers and their inner fire regen. We couldn't pass GOLEM the "trick" way where you fight the spawns on the hill, and instead had to rely on golems on both sides. Destruction Depths was also quite interesting, spent a long time even with foes balled on the ice bridge.

I don't really know what you are saying about AoE either. Eles have more nearby effects than any other class. The glorious MoP and RoJ nukes are stuck with adjacent. Its just as mentioned that the damage is fairly low.

Magragoc · May 27, 2010, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

and most of my complaints are in this attribute. Long cooldowns on what should be your bread and butter skills for a fire build, varying ranges of aoe that are often surpassed by other classes and often cause scatter, and low damage in hard mode.

See, I don't understand how you can keep going on and on about "long cooldowns". Liquid Flame, Mark of Rodgort, Rodgort's Invocation, Phoenix, Searing Flames....they all have recharge times of 15 seconds or less. Do you mean the Heats with their 30 second recharges? or are you fixated on Meteor Shower? None of those spells are unusual in their recharges, except for the obvious MS. As I've said previously, you have 40/40 sets for a reason! USE THEM! If that's not enough, bring the Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom.

Cuilan · May 27, 2010, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Confusing DPS to a skill that hits once but not every second is a bit misleading. Especially if you don't consider damage over time like burning and other effects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

But it would be nice if Ele's got an Earth Equivalent of SF Nuker.

Then nobody would use fire.

Arato · May 27, 2010, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magragoc

See, I don't understand how you can keep going on and on about "long cooldowns". Liquid Flame, Mark of Rodgort, Rodgort's Invocation, Phoenix, Searing Flames....they all have recharge times of 15 seconds or less. Do you mean the Heats with their 30 second recharges? or are you fixated on Meteor Shower? None of those spells are unusual in their recharges, except for the obvious MS. As I've said previously, you have 40/40 sets for a reason! USE THEM! If that's not enough, bring the Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom.

I'm meaning the heats and meteor shower.

They are the more damaging skills provided you can keep a mob in them for their duration.

Meteor shower = 357
Savannah Heat = 315
Searing Heat/Tenai's Heat = 210 (plus 42 burning) (Breath of Fire also does this much damage but has a narrower aoe range and doesn't cause the burning)

The other nukes, the 1 bang ones, often have a narrow aoe, (Fireball and Liquid flame are "adjacent" whereas the heats are all "nearby" (MS is adjacent as well)

Basing the being reasonable or not for the recharges on CHANCE or CONSETS isn't a good deal imo.

40/40 set is a CHANCE at half recharge. EVSOW is a CHANCE at half recharge, AoS is a CHANCE (and only 10% at that) at instant recharge. AP is.. well it's a guarantee mathematically but shizzle happens no matter what you do sometimes, mob runs away at 10% health and you can't chase it down to finish it, etc. (For MS you pretty much need instant recharges. Even a half time recharge of 45s is too long)

I actually kinda lucked out that monk went linkdead today in ToPK.. going back to switch AoS for AP .. AoS was leaving me standing there with no skills available too much, I don't think I like betting on that wager.

Magragoc · May 27, 2010, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

I'm meaning the heats and meteor shower.

They are the more damaging skills provided you can keep a mob in them for their duration.

Meteor shower = 357
Savannah Heat = 315
Searing Heat/Tenai's Heat = 210 (plus 42 burning) (Breath of Fire also does this much damage but has a narrower aoe range and doesn't cause the burning)

The other nukes, the 1 bang ones, often have a narrow aoe, (Fireball and Liquid flame are "adjacent" whereas the heats are all "nearby" (MS is adjacent as well)

Basing the being reasonable or not for the recharges on CHANCE or CONSETS isn't a good deal imo.

40/40 set is a CHANCE at half recharge. EVSOW is a CHANCE at half recharge, AoS is a CHANCE (and only 10% at that) at instant recharge. AP is.. well it's a guarantee mathematically but shizzle happens no matter what you do sometimes, mob runs away at 10% health and you can't chase it down to finish it, etc. (For MS you pretty much need instant recharges. Even a half time recharge of 45s is too long)

I actually kinda lucked out that monk went linkdead today in ToPK.. going back to switch AoS for AP .. AoS was leaving me standing there with no skills available too much, I don't think I like betting on that wager.

Of course they're chancey, they'd be overpowered otherwise. I don't recall the exact maths, but the 40/40 set equates to around a 36% chance per cast of having that spell cast or recharge in half the time. That's a significant amount, especially when you take into account the rare occasions where they both trigger and you cast/recharge in 1/4 the normal time.

And the Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom? That in itself is a 60% chance to half skill recharges for EVERYONE in the ward. Maxing Vanguard isn't hard; one Book, a couple of vanquishes and you're practically there.

I wouldn't use Air of Superiority for normal play; as you've seen it's just too "iffy". You could have a run of bad luck and be screwed.

Use a 40/40 set, and the Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom. Yes, they're still only chances, but they're good chances, and if you stack enough of them you'll see a huge difference.

JimmyTyme · May 27, 2010, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Their DPS on other hand is lacking that's why they take support roles in casual stuff where DPS is favoured. But Eles were never supposed to be a heavy DPS class.

....your ignorance is beyond imagination

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

I'm meaning the heats and meteor shower.

They are the more damaging skills provided you can keep a mob in them for their duration.

Meteor shower = 357
Savannah Heat = 315
Searing Heat/Tenai's Heat = 210 (plus 42 burning) (Breath of Fire also does this much damage but has a narrower aoe range and doesn't cause the burning)

The other nukes, the 1 bang ones, often have a narrow aoe, (Fireball and Liquid flame are "adjacent" whereas the heats are all "nearby" (MS is adjacent as well).

just to add to that.. those damage figures are for NM, for anywhere in HM cut that into about 1/2 to 1/6th depending.
The second point he/you make(s) here is the range for ele dmg... lets face it adjacent range is balls especially when u look at how the average mobs group you'd be lucky to get 2 hits with a spell and in HM ur doing about half dmg so lets see for comparison fireball does about 100(skewed for demonstration purposes) ... you going to hit around 46-65... and x2 but man I'd rather use barrage and hit 50-90 because it atleast doesn't have a 2s cast time and as a slightly wider range...

Myotheraccount · May 27, 2010, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What do you mean they were never supposed to be a heavy DPS class? What, then, do you call this?

I call it burst damage or spike damage. What else can you call it? Just as I expected people don't know what DPS stands for.

GWW source also says that Eles can deal biggest damage in a single spell which is partially true.

Arato · May 27, 2010, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magragoc

Of course they're chancey, they'd be overpowered otherwise. I don't recall the exact maths, but the 40/40 set equates to around a 36% chance per cast of having that spell cast or recharge in half the time. That's a significant amount, especially when you take into account the rare occasions where they both trigger and you cast/recharge in 1/4 the normal time.

And the Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom? That in itself is a 60% chance to half skill recharges for EVERYONE in the ward. Maxing Vanguard isn't hard; one Book, a couple of vanquishes and you're practically there.

I wouldn't use Air of Superiority for normal play; as you've seen it's just too "iffy". You could have a run of bad luck and be screwed.

Use a 40/40 set, and the Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom. Yes, they're still only chances, but they're good chances, and if you stack enough of them you'll see a huge difference.

I get strings of bad luck with a 40/40 set.. I don't like relying on chance :/

I was testing AoS due to Myotheraccount's claims that I should use that instead of AP because every pull would result in recharges. Wrong!

Myotheraccount · May 27, 2010, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

I get strings of bad luck with a 40/40 set.. I don't like relying on chance :/

I was testing AoS due to Myotheraccount's claims that I should use that instead of AP because every pull would result in recharges. Wrong!

It's not wrong, you're just bad. Learn to play.

Daesu · May 27, 2010, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Their DPS on other hand is lacking that's why they take support roles in casual stuff where DPS is favoured. But Eles were never supposed to be a heavy DPS class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyTyme

....your ignorance is beyond imagination

Just ignore Igor (aka Myotheraccount), don't feed the trolls.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

I call it burst damage or spike damage. What else can you call it? Just as I expected people don't know what DPS stands for.

Sure....http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Damage_per_second

Myotheraccount · May 27, 2010, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Just ignore Igor (aka Myotheraccount), don't feed the trolls.

Sure....http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Damage_per_second

Lol hi stalker. I know you are obessed with me. <3

I assumed sustained DPS. Which is greatly favoured in casual PvE but Eles were never supposed to have that. Now tell my hows I'm ignorant or trolling. :>

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

What I meant is that you say Elementalist recharges don't need a buff because if you use consets and get lucky on instant recharge skills, your recharges are reasonable if not instant. You're basing the reasonableness of the recharge rates on skills not based on the skills themselves, but on secondary class/pve only skill/consets, not ele skills themselves.

You can say that. If you reduce the recharges to the point where neither cons nor AoS will be needed in SCs, you realise how overpowered they will become.

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In normal mode. Stuff blows up before I get the second heat off most times, so I have the other heat to use in another pull if I didn't get a recharge.

In hard mode. stuff is still standing after all 3 spells have been cast, and I'm sitting on 3 recharging spells with a bar full of support skills for those 3 spells and not really much else I can do (Fire Attune, mark of rodgort (particularly as a cover hex for AP) or weaken armor (if I use AoS instead), AP or AoS, BUH, and Glyph of Sacrifice (If I don't use AP as my elite I use savannah heat instead of one of the copied heats))

I use AP for general PvE because you can't reliably trigger AoS there. You can always use a more support-orientated build or Cracked Armor with various PvE skills to make up for higher armor values. I don't see much wrong with Norn shouts either because you will have 3 PvE skills on your bar regardless.

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You're trying to say you never get those low pulses, or that those low pulses are "good damage"

I never get them. Something is wrong with your setup. That is again in regards to SC.

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On a side note. I don't think there's a real way to play an elementalist as an elementalist in a hard mode destroyer dungeon and do solid aoe damage. Well I tried winter and fire magic but PuGs wouldn't take me because while they may be too ignorant to realize winter changes the damage to cold, and I wasn't using any skills that relied on burning, they do know that destroyers don't burn and are resistant to fire damage.. tried earth and they're pretty much as resistant to that as they are fire.. water.. even though they're supposedly vulnerable to water, the damage on water is so low that it's a joke anyway.

Try an Air or Water build. Relying on a Spirit when Destroyers carry allot of strong physical AoE is rather foolish that's why nobody took you.

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Anyway, while yes, you can use consets to do SC's of UW, FoW, and DoA, to make up for the lacking of reasonable recharges and activation times of the default skills..

who uses consets in dungeons? I'm not sure of it since I've never used consets in dungeons.. but don't they wipe after each level?

Cons are used in every SC. In dungeons it's usually just a BU per level (Essence of Celerity) unless you/your perma can run a level w/o it. If you are setting a record you may need to use a full set and personal cons too.

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Just at MoD, a DWG rit build was doing about 148 dps, weaken armor +ms+savannah heat+searing heat did 169 dps (in 10s spikes, (no cons, no other party members), obviously since AoS won't proc there the ele damage is unsustainable, while the DWG damage is, it wasn't really fair to compare sustainability in that environment), which looks great, (aside from the lack of sustainability without instant recharges), it's too bad there's no HM AL MoD to really test at but I can already assure you the DWG will do more (and more sustainable), the margin against a 60 AL target isn't high enough that when everything gets more armor the ele can't stay ahead.

I don't like testing this stuff on MoD. It's better to just run the thing where it was supposed to be used.

Now I know you know how to use the EDIT button why did you double?

Cuilan · May 27, 2010, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

I assumed sustained DPS.

No, it's because they don't know the difference between the two or even know what the two really are. They aren't even putting any other damage a skill may do under consideration, burning, AoE, or anything else.

Arato · May 28, 2010, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

It's not wrong, you're just bad. Learn to play.

Oh, because it not recharging every pull like you claim means I had something to do with it, not that the skill isn't unreliable, oh no. 10% chance of instant recharge ALWAYS HAPPENS.

You're just a f'rigging troll, and an idiot besides, but anyway.

Quote:

I never get them. Something is wrong with your setup. That is again in regards to SC.

You're either lying or never pay attention or never do sc's in hard mode. A warrior, paragon, or ranger type mob in hard mode will reduce your ticks on searing heat from 42 to under 20, guaranteed. In Normal mode they would without cracked armor in fact.

as to using a water or air build in destroyer instances.. air potentially but then you're stuck with single target damage in a situation where people want aoe.

However water? You'd best be joking. They're not really vulnerable to water they're just not as resistant to it as other elements, which is to say, they still have 120 armor vs it. Water magic damage is already lower than the rest due to Anets thinking the snares make up for it, which, they do, in pvp, or 5 years ago when people were just trying to get content done and weren't trying to care much about getting it done quickly and efficiently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

No, it's because they don't know the difference between the two or even know what the two really are. They aren't even putting any other damage a skill may do under consideration, burning, AoE, or anything else.

There's a few reasons for that. First off, burning as a source of damage isn't always reliable because there are mobtypes that are immune to it (destroyers, fire elementals), and because there's a cap on degen. If you have someone using poison, a minion bomber say, you're not getting 7 degen out of burning you're getting 6. Some hexes do even more degen so burning would only be adding 2-4. Not to mention multiple sources of burning won't stack.

As for not considering it to be doing more damage because it hits more than 1 target.. that's because hitting targets in aoe is the standard what groups want. People don't want to take someone who can only hit 1 thing at a time. Not to mention, every other class that has been taking Ele's place as a nuker in situations where Eles are inferior choices for it (seriously if I was running a PuG for a destroyer instance, I'd turn away any elementalist who tried to join. They have no way to play as an elementalist and still be effective aoe damage dealers), also has aoe damage, that's why Eles are outclassed. If eles were the ONLY class that could hit multiple targets at range, then maybe that'd be special. But honestly, you sound like you're trying to get someone hyped over buying a used car, boasting that it has advanced safety features, like a thing called a seat belt that'll prevent you from getting launched out the windshield should you get in an accident. HOLY COW this car must RULE, oh wait, that's a standard feature, every car has it, and this car still has a bad engine.