Curse

Myotheraccount · May 24, 2010, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

That build does a lot of damage doesn't it? /sarcasm

It has a good spike. Better than the alternatives for general PvE purposes.

Axel Zinfandel · May 24, 2010, 05:09 PM // 17:09

I feel like the people claiming eles are fine have no clue what has actually happened to eles in comparison to their actual GOAL as a class. They were designed for High Damage or support, depending on how you build things.

Fire Magic is obviously for AoE nuking.
Air Magic is single target damage, with some support with blind.
Earth Magic is almost all about support and defense
Water Magic is support in snare form.

Now, the fact that eles have been reduced to support (even though that support is pretty much JUST Bsurge) isn't all that bad because within their goals as a class, but there's no doubt in my mind that eles being the best healers and prots in the entire game is a bit of a problem.

Compared to other classes in HM, Eles can't touch the damage other classes can put out. If you think dedicating 3/4 skills for energy management to spam Searing Flames for 50-80 damage every so often is good AoE, then by all means have at it. Mesmers just echo chaining Cry of Frustration can put out more useful AoE damage than that. Hell, Ritualist offensive spells were buffed because of their uselessness in end game, and they definitely have less of focus on direct power than elementalists do, so why exactly -shouldn't- eles be buffed?

I feel like eles not being able to at least deal decent damage in HM is like suddenly telling monks that they can't heal in HM, or all their heals are 50% less effective.

The high armor on mobs in HM is ridiculous, but we're pretty much stuck with it. IMO, Hard mode should have been more focused on making individual mobs balanced groups with healers and actual skills that synergize, not buffing everything -else- about them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

It has a good spike. Better than the alternatives for general PvE purposes.

It's a good spike because of the PvE skills, not the ele skills. That doesn't make is a good ele build. it makes it a good PvE skill abusing class, in which any single caster class can abuse.

Stoney Malloney · May 24, 2010, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

50-80 damage a cast on a 15energy spell NOT underpowered? You're crazy.

Your ignorance is blatant, ever seen a SF elementalist with energy problems? I never get into problems with it. You know why not? Because SF has a very good energy management, so your entire argument of relating damage to direct energy cost is based on thin air considering the ease with which you can manage Searing Flames.

Your short-sightedness also shows by the fact you 'label' a skill based on 2 'properties' namely cost and damage output, you seem to forget that the short recharge is a pro, the condition it causes is a pro (an additional 14 dps), the fact it's AoE is a pro, the fact it doesn't cause scatter is a pro, the fairly short casting time, is a pro. You say it deals 50-80 dmg per cast... Yes that's if there's just one target involved... In the situation when there's only one target involved... We'd be better off using air no? (I mean, say, we target 3 enemies at once (ooh a lot? no?) then 1 cast deals 150-280 dmg and will cause burning when synergized with MoT (which every self-respecting elementalist should be doing anyways for the sake of dmg output and energy management)).

There was this sign in my IT class that said 'Oh lord, please help me to keep my big mouth shut until I know what I am talking about.'

It suits you.

Also regarding the air builds; with Blind, Weakness & Cracked Armor -> Epidemic you can negate Melee, Rangers etc. Very effective for spiking as well if you add lightning hammer etc, all in all a very viable option in say, h/h-ing Hell's Precipice in HM.

Wasn't Hard Mode designed to be hard? Do we really want the elementalist to be buffed? I can h/h any mission in HM as elementalist with the obvious exception being Eternal Grove, give me 1 human player with heroes there and I will effortlessly pass it as well.

If you really need the profession buffed, perhaps you should just stick to NM, I've never found HM to be much of a challenge (no I don't run Discordway/Sabway).

**My SF builds Consist of SF, Glowing Gaze, Liquid Flame, Fire Attunement, Gole and 1 or 2 heroes running similar but adding Mark of Rodgort.

Cuilan · May 24, 2010, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyTyme

....And you replied incorrectly because you ignored the statement that I quoted.

Didn't ignore anything and I replied correctly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

The issue with Elementalists has nothing to do with the skills, and everything to do with the enemies.

This. A player can make functioning builds with elementalists, despite a simple skill change or two that can make a difference in hard mode.

They're AoE machines with a lot of skills to pick from. Even without armor ignoring damage which isn't always a good, you have other damage advantages that help your overall DPS (nukes with knock down, wide range, etc.)

Steps_Descending · May 24, 2010, 06:48 PM // 18:48

/notsigned

OP has a good idea tought. Changing Intensity to a longer lasting AL-penet buff would be useful. CHanging it from an impratical short term boost to a more constant damage buff.

By the way, do we know if ALpenet can go below 60 AL?

Arato · May 24, 2010, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoney Malloney

Your ignorance is blatant, ever seen a SF elementalist with energy problems? I never get into problems with it. You know why not? Because SF has a very good energy management, so your entire argument of relating damage to direct energy cost is based on thin air considering the ease with which you can manage Searing Flames.

Your short-sightedness also shows by the fact you 'label' a skill based on 2 'properties' namely cost and damage output, you seem to forget that the short recharge is a pro, the condition it causes is a pro (an additional 14 dps), the fact it's AoE is a pro, the fact it doesn't cause scatter is a pro, the fairly short casting time, is a pro. You say it deals 50-80 dmg per cast... Yes that's if there's just one target involved... In the situation when there's only one target involved... We'd be better off using air no? (I mean, say, we target 3 enemies at once (ooh a lot? no?) then 1 cast deals 150-280 dmg and will cause burning when synergized with MoT (which every self-respecting elementalist should be doing anyways for the sake of dmg output and energy management)).

There was this sign in my IT class that said 'Oh lord, please help me to keep my big mouth shut until I know what I am talking about.'

It suits you.

Also regarding the air builds; with Blind, Weakness & Cracked Armor -> Epidemic you can negate Melee, Rangers etc. Very effective for spiking as well if you add lightning hammer etc, all in all a very viable option in say, h/h-ing Hell's Precipice in HM.

Wasn't Hard Mode designed to be hard? Do we really want the elementalist to be buffed? I can h/h any mission in HM as elementalist with the obvious exception being Eternal Grove, give me 1 human player with heroes there and I will effortlessly pass it as well.

If you really need the profession buffed, perhaps you should just stick to NM, I've never found HM to be much of a challenge (no I don't run Discordway/Sabway).

**My SF builds Consist of SF, Glowing Gaze, Liquid Flame, Fire Attunement, Gole and 1 or 2 heroes running similar but adding Mark of Rodgort.

YOU'RE the ignorant one. You're looking at it as if Ele is the only class that can put out those kind of numbers, so it must be fine. You've obviously not played a class that can deal armor ignoring damage while nuking in hard mode and compared.

BTW mentioning damage vs energy ratio is not because of energy management being an issue. It's a simple concept of making an investment, and getting returns on that investment. If you invest 15 energy and get 50 damage on that investment, it's a poor return, compared to someone else who can invest 5, or 10 energy, and get 100+ damage on the same number of targets. It doesn't matter that you have more energy to invest, or have ways of recovering that energy. You're still putting in more to get less.

It's not that Ele can't do damage, it's that Ele is OUTFREAKINGCLASSED by every other caster out there now.

Yes, every single other caster, in its damage dealing attribute line, is a better nuker than Ele in hard mode.

Channeling Rits? 20% armor penetration plus a huge in the area nuke that is spammable. Better than SF? I get triple digits in HM with DWG, so yes.

Smiting Monks? 5 second pulsing aoe that causes burning and mobs don't flee from, also armor ignoring, roughly 250 damage not counting the burning for 10 energy, often echo chained effectively to compensate for its one weakness, adjacent range. It is kind of a 1 trick pony, but it also offers hex and condition removal that also cause damage, and protective spells that return damage, all armor ignoring holy damage. Not to mention 2x damage vs undead.

SS Necros? Damage is conditional but is all armor ignoring and conditions are easy to fulfill. They also essentially have infinite energy if things are dying fast enough. They're a part of meta builds. Eles are not currently (aside from bonding). Guess who does more damage.

Mesmers? It hasn't been long enough after the new changes to see if they've been added to the meta yet, but their damage is armor ignoring, causes interrupts and knockdowns, and is aoe now. They also have fast casting and excellent energy management.

Ele's are the only class where hard mode really makes a difference in the damage they deal.

Look at some of the builds being suggested, they aren't even ele builds. It's 3 PVE only skills and assassin's promise, which any caster could use.

Try playing some of the other caster classes in HM, then come back to an ele in HM, and tell me the Ele does more damage, honestly.

BTW it's not that I can't do HM successfully on an Ele, it's finding PuG groups (small guild, no desire to join a larger one) can be more difficult as a lot of people know we're a low damage class in HM, and when soloing in HM, I find it goes a lot slower than most of my other characters because of the damage reduction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Didn't ignore anything and I replied correctly.

This. A player can make functioning builds with elementalists, despite a simple skill change or two that can make a difference in hard mode.

They're AoE machines with a lot of skills to pick from. Even without armor ignoring damage which isn't always a good, you have other damage advantages that help your overall DPS (nukes with knock down, wide range, etc.)

armor ignoring damage is always "as good" if not better in HM and high end pve. Non armor ignoring damage is only "as good" as armor ignoring damage if the target has 70 or less armor.

the nuke with knockdown is extremely limited. 5s cast time (yes you can glyphsac but then that makes the other thing worse), 60s cooldown, and a delay between the cast finishing and the first knockdown occuring.

Don't even try to say that you've never cast a meteor shower that has been wasted because the mobs moved out of it in the 3s window before the first hit. It happens to everyone.

60s is too long of a cooldown for most groups in high end pve. Nobody wants to wait that between pulls much less 90s if you use sacrifice.

There are also other ways to cause knockdown. Look at psychic instability. Interrupt a skill or spell, knock down every nearby foe instantly for 4s, and with the updates to fast casting, it has a 7.68 second cooldown at 12 fast casting, just over 6 seconds at 16 fast casting. It's better than YMLAD even on a single target, and it's an aoe!

Wide area nukes? Look at Ritualist, DWG says hi.

MOD EDIT: Yeah lets learn how to use the EDIT button from now on instead of making a new post.

Myotheraccount · May 24, 2010, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

armor ignoring damage is always "as good" if not better in HM and high end pve. Non armor ignoring damage is only "as good" as armor ignoring damage if the target has 70 or less armor.

the nuke with knockdown is extremely limited. 5s cast time (yes you can glyphsac but then that makes the other thing worse), 60s cooldown, and a delay between the cast finishing and the first knockdown occuring.

Don't even try to say that you've never cast a meteor shower that has been wasted because the mobs moved out of it in the 3s window before the first hit. It happens to everyone.

60s is too long of a cooldown for most groups in high end pve. Nobody wants to wait that between pulls much less 90s if you use sacrifice.

There are also other ways to cause knockdown. Look at psychic instability. Interrupt a skill or spell, knock down every nearby foe instantly for 4s, and with the updates to fast casting, it has a 7.68 second cooldown at 12 fast casting, just over 6 seconds at 16 fast casting. It's better than YMLAD even on a single target, and it's an aoe!

Wide area nukes? Look at Ritualist, DWG says hi.

You need to come into melee range for DWG. Stop being stupid, Eles are fine right now and Anet shouldn't break them for the best benefit of GW. If they do, they will do it badly and kill the game further with more PvP inbalance, bots and general powercreepage.

Yell at your tank if mobs move out of MS before you finish casting it. If you are soloing, don't take MS without GoS and AP. I don't wanna hear you say "AP gonna be removed" because you should either cover it or cast it near the end if you know there is a risk of it being removed.

For mobs with high armor values there's always Air Magic and Cracked Armor.

Cuilan · May 24, 2010, 08:02 PM // 20:02

I don't mean to backseat moderate or go off the topic, but the forum has an edit button and a multi-quote button.

Still haven't shown how elementalists are broken. The are not. Changes to a skill or two like Intensity can change the damage part of hard mode.

If you look at only the numbers of the skill and nothing else, then you're not seeing the whole part of what the skill is or can do.

fireflyry · May 24, 2010, 08:10 PM // 20:10

They could use a few tweaks given the mob scatter but I would rather avoid any over the top buffs when considering a ranged nuker class.

It tends to blow up the meta and promote way to much Tank'N'Spank in PvE, which I personally find a mind-numbingly boring and out-dated style of play.

Some of the mentioned changes are agreeable but others are completely ignoring the obvious and negative repercussions.

expugnare · May 24, 2010, 08:18 PM // 20:18

To some people: claiming that because one can H/H XXXX doesn't mean that a class is comparatively more viable that another. I can do plenty using a Dervish in HM, but I am still less needed than an Assassin or Warrior fulfilling a similar role.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Still haven't shown how elementalists are broken. The are not. Changes to a skill or two like Intensity can change the damage part of hard mode.

If you look at only the numbers of the skill and nothing else, then you're not seeing the whole part of what the skill is or can do.

Er, I don't know how much of this statement was a reference to the original post, or to Arato himself, but I don't think Ele's are broken. I think rather than high armor values nerf them significantly in Hard Mode, and that other classes offer better utility and damage for less cost (hence the energy/cooldown issues).

I think most Ele moves are perfectly fine: for example (despite the very frustrating fact that a monster can merely move away in the initial three seconds) I think Meteor Shower is probably one of our best tools in Hard Mode, and is nearly invaluable to provide AoE shutdown when I H/H.

A change to Intensity is definitely in order.

Also, I have edited the original post to reflect some the comments and concerns of people who have responded to this post, as well as to represent what most people think.

Frozen Ele · May 24, 2010, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

the nuke with knockdown is extremely limited. 5s cast time (yes you can glyphsac but then that makes the other thing worse), 60s cooldown, and a delay between the cast finishing and the first knockdown occuring.

Don't even try to say that you've never cast a meteor shower that has been wasted because the mobs moved out of it in the 3s window before the first hit. It happens to everyone.

60s is too long of a cooldown for most groups in high end pve. Nobody wants to wait that between pulls much less 90s if you use sacrifice.

If it's so bad, then don't use it.

Arato · May 24, 2010, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

You need to come into melee range for DWG. Stop being stupid, Eles are fine right now and Anet shouldn't break them for the best benefit of GW. If they do, they will do it badly and kill the game further with more PvP inbalance, bots and general powercreepage.

Yell at your tank if mobs move out of MS before you finish casting it. If you are soloing, don't take MS without GoS and AP. I don't wanna hear you say "AP gonna be removed" because you should either cover it or cast it near the end if you know there is a risk of it being removed.

For mobs with high armor values there's always Air Magic and Cracked Armor.

Hi, did you ever read the part where I've said over and over and over again that air magic is freaking single target, and therefore not meta? That's pretty important. As much as you might be completely ignorant of what's going on around you, high end pve is about balling things up and nuking them down fast, and running to the next group with no downtime. That means no downtime for energy recovery, or cooldown recovery. You need to be able to just knock pulls out one after another, and fast.

You do know that getting in melee range isn't that big of an issue with imbagons and competent healers right? I do DoAsc on my ritualist pretty frequently.

Why did I level up my rit in the first place? Because I was told there was no place for elementalists in DoA, because of our low damage compared to rits.

50-60 damage per cast is not "fine". Don't kid yourself.

Quote:

If it's so bad, then don't use it.

With so many of fire's skills being pulsing damage over time aoe's, you kind of have to, to prevent scatter. The only other way to nuke with fire is to spam Searing Flames, half of the casts being wasted just to set the mobs on fire, the other half doing an amazing 50 damage to each target.

Myotheraccount · May 25, 2010, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

Hi, did you ever read the part where I've said over and over and over again that air magic is freaking single target, and therefore not meta? That's pretty important. As much as you might be completely ignorant of what's going on around you, high end pve is about balling things up and nuking them down fast, and running to the next group with no downtime. That means no downtime for energy recovery, or cooldown recovery. You need to be able to just knock pulls out one after another, and fast.

You do know that getting in melee range isn't that big of an issue with imbagons and competent healers right? I do DoAsc on my ritualist pretty frequently.

Why did I level up my rit in the first place? Because I was told there was no place for elementalists in DoA, because of our low damage compared to rits.

50-60 damage per cast is not "fine". Don't kid yourself.

With so many of fire's skills being pulsing damage over time aoe's, you kind of have to, to prevent scatter. The only other way to nuke with fire is to spam Searing Flames, half of the casts being wasted just to set the mobs on fire, the other half doing an amazing 50 damage to each target.

l2p. Nobody cares about shitty DWG pugs in DoA that only work on NM. All the recent UW/FoW records been set with Ele spikers. DoA was dominated by Eles for a while now. Get a proper tank who can block properly and do clean spikes. SH spike with BUH! buffed up with cons is godly. So as far as that is concerned, Eles dominate the high end department.

There is nothing wrong with Eles. They fulfill their roles extremely well. Don't even compare them to memsers, Mesmers had great deal of their power revolving around Interrupts, Energy Denial and disabling all of which pretty much went out of the window in PvE where damage comes first.

P.S.: Stop writing in questions. It's annoying. If you are unsure about what you say, then say nothing.

This post says it all:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I don't mean to backseat moderate or go off the topic, but the forum has an edit button and a multi-quote button.

Still haven't shown how elementalists are broken. The are not. Changes to a skill or two like Intensity can change the damage part of hard mode.

If you look at only the numbers of the skill and nothing else, then you're not seeing the whole part of what the skill is or can do.

/Thread.

Arato · May 25, 2010, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

l2p. Nobody cares about shitty DWG pugs in DoA that only work on NM. All the recent UW/FoW records been set with Ele spikers. DoA was dominated by Eles for a while now. Get a proper tank who can block properly and do clean spikes. SH spike with BUH! buffed up with cons is godly. So as far as that is concerned, Eles dominate the high end department.

There is nothing wrong with Eles. They fulfill their roles extremely well. Don't even compare them to memsers, Mesmers had great deal of their power revolving around Interrupts, Energy Denial and disabling all of which pretty much went out of the window in PvE where damage comes first.

P.S.: Stop writing in questions. It's annoying. If you are unsure about what you say, then say nothing.

This post says it all:

/Thread.

They have to be compared to the other classes doing the same role. Pretty much every arguement you've had has been "Eles can do this" without addressing "can they do it as well as everything else that can do it". Nobody has been saying the class is so broken that it can't function at all. What people are saying is that it's outclassed by other casters in the role that it was designed for. That is a comparison. Argue that. I don't care how many titles, what rank pvp, what you've completed on the class. What I care about is being able to do the job as well if not better (as it should be better considering those other 4 casters were not designed from the ground up as an aoe damage class as ele was) than the other classes that can do essentially the same thing.

Nobody is arguing that Ele SPIKING is broken either. I wish you'd stop bringing it up like we are. Trying to prove to us that eles can spike well is like trying to tell us that water is wet, we're aware of that. We are all arguing that it is NUKING aka MULTIPLE TARGETS IN AN AREA that we are dissatisfied with the class's performance in. That's the fire attribute line, that's what gets crippled so badly damage wise (and water as well, water is overlooked because nobody uses it, because its damage is so low, and as we know, killing fast > snaring/controlling. If nothing else is changed, water needs help, water damage is low even in normal mode)

Jeydra · May 25, 2010, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

All the recent UW/FoW records been set with Ele spikers. DoA was dominated by Eles for a while now. Get a proper tank who can block properly and do clean spikes. SH spike with BUH! buffed up with cons is godly. So as far as that is concerned, Eles dominate the high end department.

On the other hand, for everything outside of SCs Elementalist damage is terrible.

expugnare · May 25, 2010, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

On the other hand, for everything outside of SCs Elementalist damage is terrible.

^^^^^^ This

Quote:

Originally Posted by expugnare

Only in very specialized PvE is an Ele useful for damage, such as in Speed Clears, where mass nukers are used to wipe snared mobs quickly.

If people had read the OP, I brought up that we are looking outside of organized speed clears... Like I've said, there's no doubt an Ele can dominate groups of mobs with 40% Lightbringer, 25% BuHammer, Cracked Armor and Ebon Vanguard Standard of Honor. The real problem is high armor values in regular HM, where a normal player would H/H or Pug....

For example, I was doing Frost Gate today because I had needed it for A Young Heroes of Tyria I was filling. On some mobs (cloth) I did 149 dmg per nuke with By Ural's Hammer/Cracked, on others, warriors, I did 66, with the same buffs.
Losing 80 damage is a pretty big deal.

The problem isn't really with the class, its about how badly we scale against tough, high armor foes, prevalent in HM. Other classes pump out armor ignoring damage that bypasses this. I'm sure most of you have got that, but that is, and always will be the focus of this post (and the main roadblock that Eles face).

Arato · May 25, 2010, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Try a water build in HM sometime. The damage is absolutely brutally pathetic. Vapor blade for 43 damage, Shatterstone for 39 damage each pulse, I'm not even kidding, and this is on destroyers that are supposedly "weak" against water.

Myotheraccount · May 25, 2010, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

They have to be compared to the other classes doing the same role. Pretty much every arguement you've had has been "Eles can do this" without addressing "can they do it as well as everything else that can do it". Nobody has been saying the class is so broken that it can't function at all. What people are saying is that it's outclassed by other casters in the role that it was designed for. That is a comparison. Argue that. I don't care how many titles, what rank pvp, what you've completed on the class. What I care about is being able to do the job as well if not better (as it should be better considering those other 4 casters were not designed from the ground up as an aoe damage class as ele was) than the other classes that can do essentially the same thing.

Nobody is arguing that Ele SPIKING is broken either. I wish you'd stop bringing it up like we are. Trying to prove to us that eles can spike well is like trying to tell us that water is wet, we're aware of that. We are all arguing that it is NUKING aka MULTIPLE TARGETS IN AN AREA that we are dissatisfied with the class's performance in. That's the fire attribute line, that's what gets crippled so badly damage wise (and water as well, water is overlooked because nobody uses it, because its damage is so low, and as we know, killing fast > snaring/controlling. If nothing else is changed, water needs help, water damage is low even in normal mode)

You are retarded. They are not outclassed at the roles they are designed for. I already gave you examples why but you are too determined to QQ to listen. Examples you gave, evidence that you don't have enough experience so whatever you post is invalid: stop now.

Eles dominate in nuking department at least as far as SCs are concerned. FoW record inb4 Mes update been set with a single Ele spiker because it's strong, fast and doesn't suffer from smaller mobs like 100b does.

Outside SCs Ele's damage is still fairly decent on Hard Mode is you take Cracked Armor. But, you're better off using Earth/Water Magic line to support your party. Skills such as UG are godly on HM. I am aware that those attributes are lacking in damage but they weren't supposed to be damage-heavy in the first place.

Nobody has shown how Elementalist as a concept is broken yet. You only look at damage in some isolated cases. To say that a class is broken means that it requires a complete overhaul of its functions like Rits and Mesmers.

Arato · May 25, 2010, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

You are retarded. They are not outclassed at the roles they are designed for. I already gave you examples why but you are too determined to QQ to listen. Examples you gave, evidence that you don't have enough experience so whatever you post is invalid: stop now.

Eles dominate in nuking department at least as far as SCs are concerned. FoW record inb4 Mes update been set with a single Ele spiker because it's strong, fast and doesn't suffer from smaller mobs like 100b does.

Outside SCs Ele's damage is still fairly decent on Hard Mode is you take Cracked Armor. But, you're better off using Earth/Water Magic line to support your party. Skills such as UG are godly on HM. I am aware that those attributes are lacking in damage but they weren't supposed to be damage-heavy in the first place.

Nobody has shown how Elementalist as a concept is broken yet. You only look at damage in some isolated cases. To say that a class is broken means that it requires a complete overhaul of its functions like Rits and Mesmers.

Hi, once again you prove you're retarded, STOP.GIVING.THE.EXAMPLE.OF.SPIKERS.

FFS I am not talking about spikers. Every time, every single friggin time, you divert the topic from NUKERS to point out how good SPIKERS are.

We're looking at damage because that's the one line that is broken. AOE damage. That's what needs help. AOE damage in hard mode.

Spiking, tanking, and support are all fine.

It's nuking, which is a core part of the philosophy behind the class, that needs help.

If Eles are so good as damage dealers as you claim, why are they not a part of the meta, except as bonders?

Myotheraccount · May 25, 2010, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

Hi, once again you prove you're retarded, STOP.GIVING.THE.EXAMPLE.OF.SPIKERS.

FFS I am not talking about spikers. Every time, every single friggin time, you divert the topic from NUKERS to point out how good SPIKERS are.

We're looking at damage because that's the one line that is broken. AOE damage. That's what needs help. AOE damage in hard mode.

Spiking, tanking, and support are all fine.

It's nuking, which is a core part of the philosophy behind the class, that needs help.

If Eles are so good as damage dealers as you claim, why are they not a part of the meta, except as bonders?

Spikers = nukers. They don't have to be single target damage. Eles are part of both metas. Just SC builds involving them aren't pug friendly. Heroes can only use UG and ER well.

Moderator Edit: Removed inflammatory content.