Curse

expugnare · May 22, 2010, 09:44 PM // 21:44

I, like many of you, have played the Ele class for a long, nearly five years. And, as I'm sure all of you know, we have been lied to: Eles were sold as the big nukers, the glass cannons. No one was supposed to be able to do as much in a single spell as an Ele. No one. Instead, it turns out that many classes do far more damage in a single spell than Eles can, for example a Necro with Spiteful Spirit or Mark of Pain. Rather than being the big damage dealers they were sold as, the Elementalist class is subpar, if even that, in the area of damage. And we need to fix that to make Elementalists viable in PvE. Sure, some people will yell ER Infuse/Orders wins PvE, but I think when most people made Elementalists the goal in mind was to blow shit up, not to help others. If helping others was the goal, using anything other than ER Orders or Prot, Eles are subpar: even in terms of utility, we are outdone. Warding is inferior to Aegis and SY. Condition and snare spreading is inferior to outright killing shit, and often time is just an accessory to killing shit faster (i.e. Discord). Only in very specialized PvE is an Ele useful for damage, such as in Speed Clears, where mass nukers are used to wipe snared mobs quickly. For general PvE in HM, Ele's are still basically garbage damage, even with powerful PvE moves. So, with a meta nearly totally based on killing shit as fast as possible, Ele's have lost their place as anything but a glorified monk. So, let's fix the problems: let's get Ele's their bang back.

So what is the problem?

1) Armor: If you play Normal Mode, you are probably scratching your head in confusion. Well, the big roadblock for an Elemenentalist in Hard Mode or Higher level areas is Armor. The humongous armor totals of most mobs reduces the elemental damage of Elementalists dramatically. This can be solved by Cracked Armor, usually provided by weaken armor, which can in some cases double the damage done by your spells. However, even with cracked armor, the damage done by an Elementalist is vastly inferior in comparison to a Necromancer, and almost laughably worthless in comparison to a competent warrior or assassin.

2) Casting Speed: Low damage is merely exacerbated by the long (2 s or higher) cast time on most Elementalist moves. Aside from a few notable exceptions (Liquid Flame) nearly every Elementalist move that doesn't suck has a 2 second cast time or higher:

Lightning Orb
Rodgort's Invocation
Fireball
Meteor
MS
Deep Freeze
Maelstrom
Searing Heat/Tenai's etc. etc.

The list goes on and on. Before the update, this was could be (sort of) solved with Mindbender. However, now that Mindbender is only 20%, the long cast times of Ele spells isn't going anywhere.

3) Cool Downs: Moreover, most Elementalist moves have long cool downs. With the exception of Searing Flames, most generic "nuke" or "spike" Elementalist moves, such as those listed above have long cool downs, upwards of five seconds and ranging to half or full minutes for some of the "big nukes."

4) Energy: Lastly, there is energy. Elementalists are given Energy Storage and Attunements to cover the forbidding energy costs of some of their more powerful moves, but this is almost never enough. Elementalists often have to devote two or three moves to Energy Management to remain afloat.

So what does this leave us with?

A "nuker" with weak damage, long downtime, slow casting and poor energy management.

How do we solve the problem?

To fix the elementalist class is not difficult, but it requires certain changes.

1) Easily Acessible Armor Penetration: For example, give Intensity the following effects: Enchantment spell: Every time you use a spell that deals damage to a foe, that spell has 25% armor penetration and inflicts Cracked Armor (before damage).
Before people start crying OP, make sure it scales only with Energy Storage so that it can't be abused by other classes. This will solve a large chunk of Elementalist damage problems, upping their damage in HM significantly.

2) Up Energy Management:Up energy management so that two or three skills are not totally necessary in an Ele build.

3) Rework underused skills: No one has found a purpose for Stone Sheath or Second Wind yet, lets change that. Perhaps adding spells that exploit resistances to make damage dealing a bit more friendly in armor heavy areas.

This post isn't even bringing to mind the complete uselessness of Water Magic in PvE, or the impracticality of many Ele moves. Considering that Arena Net has already done its major update on Mesmers, I think its high time that Ele's get the buff in PvE that the deserve.

**Edit** I have edited the original post to reflect some the comments and concerns of people who have responded to this post, as well as to represent what most people think.

Tell me what you think guys: any comments or criticism is welcomed, but unnecessary flames or ad hominem remarks will be ignored.

kariemindstorm · May 22, 2010, 11:19 PM // 23:19

i disagree that elementalist need any boost, except for maybe a yes to reducing some recharge times but to your idea about armor pent being an issue hello AIR MAGIC virtually every air magic spell offers 25% armor pent. and even though its not as well known for a large amount of aoe spells it is still capable

jayson · May 22, 2010, 11:30 PM // 23:30

When classes get these buffs, don't the PvE mobs get them too? Even in HM?

Gondrakif · May 22, 2010, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by expugnare

Considering that Arena Net has already done its major update on Mesmers, I think its high time that Ele's get the buff in PvE that the deserve.

I think there is an announcement from Anet somewhere that the next skill update is about dervish/paragon and the one after that for smiting monks so don't hold your breath

Elementalists are not bad they are outdated, when the game was first out they were pretty good damage dealers, but then hm and scatter came along making elementalists' damage drop... It's a fact that the other classes have quite a few armor ignoring damage spells to make hm easier to handle while the elementalists get:
1.Obsidian Flame (single target - causes exhaustion)
2.Crystal Wave (aoe - have to be adjacent to foes, high energy cost, medium-long recharge)
3.Teinai's Crystals (same as 2)
Now the elementalist is almost the only class that has to deal with scatter, the other classes don't have skills that cause scatter except for one or two skills each mainly because they don't have aoe over time spells... sidenote: it used to be pretty funny that while foes run from elementalist spells they would shit in roj for its whole duration!
So yes i agree with you something needs to be done and for those who say the ppl making the updates are not enough to make such a change i suggest them to look at the last update where the way hm casting times work was changed just to make interrupting viable! My suggestion would be to tune down other classes but since this is something i never expect to happen i guess the elementalist should be buffed too.
I actually like the burning of SF since it provides a nice 14dps to each foe and then more damage gets added. Also i think the energy management skills are pretty good to keep you going for a long time, personally i almost never have energy problems and i use 2 skills for energy management. In fact every class has to take 1-2 skills for energy management except maybe the necromancers! Most cool downs seem pretty reasonable to me, maybe reduce the 30secs to 20-25.

edit

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayson

When classes get these buffs, don't the PvE mobs get them too? Even in HM?

And your point is?? This is valid for every buff that has happened in this game since it was launched...

Quote:

Originally Posted by kariemindstorm

i disagree that elementalist need any boost, except for maybe a yes to reducing some recharge times but to your idea about armor pent being an issue hello AIR MAGIC virtually every air magic spell offers 25% armor pent. and even though its not as well known for a large amount of aoe spells it is still capable

Air has 5 aoe skills, 3 normal 2 elite. 1elite+1normal of these can hit a maximum of 3 foes, the other 2normal hit targets adjacent to you so you have to ball foes around yourself to make them effective and the last elite has a 3 second wait time after you cast to do damage.. So air magic is not that much of an aoe attribute.. And even with the 25% armor penetration the damage is pretty low in hm..

Gennadios · May 22, 2010, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Make use of Shell Shock or Weaken Armor.

Eles are good enough in PvE. The only thing that they could really use is maybe a duration and/or recharge buff to intensity.

Magragoc · May 22, 2010, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Most of this is just silly, and not feasible. Yes, Elementalist skills have higher energy costs, but that's why you have Energy Storage, and Attunements, and Glyph of Lesser Energy.

If you think casting times and recharge times are too long, bring a 40/40 set: that's what they're there for, and are easily available from collectors for free.

Yes, Elementalist damage in HM is overshadowed by Warriors and Assassins. But you know what? EVERYONE is overshadowed by Warriors and Assassins when it comes to dealing damage. They have the best armor-ignoring skills. Yes, Eles could use a boost, but blanket armor penetration is not the way to go, especially considering how easy it is to spread Cracked Armor to any group (Weaken Armor says "hello").

Don't forget that the most dangerous HM foes are the Elementalists, and any boost you give them (especially the reduced recharges) are going to hurt you more than they help Eles.

Improvavel · May 23, 2010, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magragoc

Don't forget that the most dangerous HM foes are the Elementalists, and any boost you give them (especially the reduced recharges) are going to hurt you more than they help Eles.

They already have reduced recharges.

They already do much more damage due to high level and higher attributes.

They have better energy due to higher energy storage and extra pipe of energy.

And armor ignoring mesmers and necros can be just as devastating as ele in HM, more if you happen to have someone spamming save yourselves.

Eles that aren't ER monking are basically useless - you have some utility and that's it. Now compare to necros, rits and the new buffed mesmers that provide the same, if not more efficient, utility while doing armor ignoring damage.

Grumpy Bear · May 23, 2010, 12:39 AM // 00:39

If you run out of energy on an ele you're doing it wrong. Attunement + either GoLE or Elemental Lord is more than sufficent E-management, no matter if your bar is packed with high energy skills or not.

Also cast times and recharge times shouldn't be an issue if you use the proper equipment eg 40/40 sets, obviously you don't get the HCT/HRC every time but it certainly helps.

Damage is fine and so is defence, sure some things are over-shadowed by other proffessions because thats what they are meant to do. OP used aegis as an example being far superior to ward v melee well, imo, its going to be because monks are there to heal/prot.

I got GWAMM on my ele and never had an issue with damage in HM missions or vanquishes.

Sure I'd like to see some skills re-worked, Second Wind for example, but every class has skills that are basically useless. Eles are fine as they are.

Magragoc · May 23, 2010, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

They already have reduced recharges.

And the OP wants them reduced further, which would just become ludicrous. He also refers to 5 and 8 second recharge times as "long cooldowns", which says a lot about how buffed he wants the Ele spells to be.

Enemies in HM are what, four levels higher than normal in eight-man areas? That's not a huge bump. Now throw in Cracked Armor, and whatever innate AP your Air spells are packing and the Ele situation isn't nearly as dire as people make it out to be. Are they the optimal profession? No, but they're not useless.

Reread the OP: He's suggesting that ALL Elementalist spells be dropped down to ten energy, and suggests two second recharges on spells like Rodgort's; Searing Flames doing unconditional damage in addition to the burning; Meteor Shower hitting instantly; and universal Armor Penetration for Ele spells. That would completely break the Elementalist. You can't deny it.

The game itself could use a tweak moreso than the Elementalist, but that's as unfeasible as the OP. This suggestion would do far more harm than good.

Mouse at Large · May 23, 2010, 12:54 AM // 00:54

I really don't see the need to do a recharge rework on spells. What I would like to see is something (slightly) buffing ES. For example +1 extra pip of energy regen per 5 points in ES.

expugnare · May 23, 2010, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gondrakif

Elementalists are not bad they are outdated, when the game was first out they were pretty good damage dealers, but then hm and scatter came along making elementalists' damage drop... It's a fact that the other classes have quite a few armor ignoring damage spells to make hm easier to handle while the elementalists get:
1.Obsidian Flame (single target - causes exhaustion)
2.Crystal Wave (aoe - have to be adjacent to foes, high energy cost, medium-long recharge)
3.Teinai's Crystals (same as 2)

Yes, we are outdated, just as Mesmers were outdated and Dervishes are outdated. Both of them are recieving buffs, so why shouldn't we?

Furthermore, Tenai's and Crystal are both totally unfeasible because they are PBAOE, which puts you in dangerous front line. Ele's don't have the survivability to justify this. Furthermore, dropping both will do like ~200 dmg, with large downtime. This doesn't solve our problem at all.

Obsidian Flame: Exhaustion lolol, also, single target damage is inferior to AoE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kariemindstorm

i disagree that elementalist need any boost, except for maybe a yes to reducing some recharge times but to your idea about armor pent being an issue hello AIR MAGIC virtually every air magic spell offers 25% armor pent. and even though its not as well known for a large amount of aoe spells it is still capable

Garts, I can use the two viable Air Magic moves for about 90~ dmg every three seconds to one target. ELES R SAEVED WOO!!!!

No. Any Assasssin that is good can do 200+ dps.

With a good air magic build on a 60 AL target you can pull off maybe 100 dps, to one target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Eles that aren't ER monking are basically useless - you have some utility and that's it. Now compare to necros, rits and the new buffed mesmers that provide the same, if not more efficient, utility while doing armor ignoring damage.

This is what I'm talking about, we offer very little utility because our class wasn't built for it. Classes like Necros and Rits do FAR superior damage while providing extremely useful and consistent utility. To make up for this we need certain changes to casting speed, recharge and damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magragoc

Yes, Elementalist damage in HM is overshadowed by Warriors and Assassins. But you know what? EVERYONE is overshadowed by Warriors and Assassins when it comes to dealing damage. They have the best armor-ignoring skills. Yes, Eles could use a boost, but blanket armor penetration is not the way to go, especially considering how easy it is to spread Cracked Armor to any group (Weaken Armor says "hello").
.

Okay, fine. That's exactly what I'm saying: We should be doing comparable damage in HM to Warriors and Assassins, maybe not the same, but close. So, give some suggestions: I agree that Cracked Armor is easy to spread, so add in Armor Penetration to our spells too, they stack, and very well in HM. And, if as you say, this is not the answer, then give one. This is an open thread, give your suggestions to make Ele's viable in HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy Bear

I got GWAMM on my ele and never had an issue with damage in HM missions or vanquishes.

Sure I'd like to see some skills re-worked, Second Wind for example, but every class has skills that are basically useless. Eles are fine as they are.

I also have done nearly every dungeon and mission in HM on my Ele, and many vanqs. It wasn't necessarily hard. I'm talking about being viable as damage dealers, especially in comparison to other classes, because (just as dervishes are) Eles are outdone by every other caster class. Any class can hero hench their way through 90% of guild wars in HM, the fact that you can do it on an Ele says nothing about their ability to effectively do damage.

Being afraid of Ele mobs in PvE is moronic. That is no way a reason to say we shouldn't bring change.

Guys, there is no need to take my word as canon, these are just suggestions. If you don't like them suggest your own. I have played the Ele for a long time and these are the problems I have noticed.

maxxfury · May 23, 2010, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Er infuzer or gtfo... j/k sorta.

Seriously..least you got ONE build to run thats epic...that leaves you on part with a para for now..

Sad state of affairs eh?.

jayson · May 23, 2010, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gondrakif

And your point is?? This is valid for every buff that has happened in this game since it was launched...

My point is that you're handing Hard Mode mobs the same buffed skills when those mobs are already buffed. Hard Mode Eles do a crapload of dmg as it is. You want to make it worse?

Magragoc · May 23, 2010, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by expugnare

Okay, fine. That's exactly what I'm saying: We should be doing comparable damage in HM to Warriors and Assassins, maybe not the same, but close. So, give some suggestions: I agree that Cracked Armor is easy to spread, so add in Armor Penetration to our spells too, they stack, and very well in HM. And, if as you say, this is not the answer, then give one. This is an open thread, give your suggestions to make Ele's viable in HM.

Being afraid of Ele mobs in PvE is moronic. That is no way a reason to say we shouldn't bring change.

I really didn't want to get into this, but here's a bit:

Skill splits are things to be avoided at all costs. Elementalists are powerful in PvP, so any changes would have to ideally be done with that in mind. That means that we can't go super-buffing everything: That just promotes a mindless, degenerate playstyle.

Elementalist Skill costs and recharge times are fine, they really are. As an Elementalist, you have access to fantastic energy management, and an enormous energy pool, which your skill costs are balanced against. If you drop energy costs, those already-good energy management skills become overwhelmingly powerful with the Ele's huge energy pool. So we can't drop Energy costs.

The recharge times aren't bad either. They're right in line with every other profession (barring the new Mesmer), and because you have access to 40/40 sets, they're still very, very spammable. To buff their recharge times would not only open their spells to abuse by other professions, but give Elementalists an unfair advantage. Remember that you have access to the Ebon battle Standard of Wisdom, how much more would you want to reduce recharge times by?

What about casting times? Elementalist spells have to be interruptable, and fast-casting Me/Ele's were a staple in some PvP arenas. Decreasing casting times would, in effect, give Elementalists ranks in Fast Casting, which Anet doesn't like: See the recent nerf to Mindbender and the Rock Candies. Also, the 40/40 set fixes any problems you may have with the current casting times. So we can't buff casting times.

Being wary of Ele bosses in HM isn't moronic: it's just common sense. Nothing in HM is as dangerous as Ele and Rit bosses because of their high attributes, double-damage, and fast casting and recharge times. Hard Mode is indeed supposed to be hard, but to give those bosses the kind of firepower you're suggesting is just foolish, and will just turn new-to-HM players off.

So we can't buff casting times, recharges, or spell costs. That leaves Armor Penetration. Blanket AP is bad; it would wreck PvP, make Ele bosses a much bigger pain-in-the-rear, and be very inelegant. That means that it has to be a PvE skill. Changing Intensity or Elemental Lord to add Armor Penetration to Elementalist spells is the only feasible option. It's the only thing that makes sense.

In the end, I think that PvE needs to change more than the Elementalist, but that's never going to happen. The Ele isn't as bad in HM as people make it out to be, and does suffer terribly from a lack of great builds, but you need to stop comparing yourself to what Assassins and Warriors can do. They do far more damage than they should, but Anet likes it that way.

Der Zeitgeist · May 23, 2010, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Elementalists are still OK after 5 years. Just people should learn how to manage energy and stay on the right places when facing a mob in HM or in NM (which is ridiculous btw). Eles can do almost anything in this game, that's why I still play after all these years. Whether I am a nuker, an SF spammer, AP Earth, or take up almost any secondary and have better energy management (I lately play Hybrid SoS), even Prot healer with my friends in UW. I have a #%!load of builds to play in PvE (party or solo farm) and more than some good PvP ones.
So, Elementalists don't need the same treatment as Mesmers got, at least for the time being. Anet hasn't screwed us up yet and I am confident that if they see that Eles get underpowered they'll fix it.

And this???

Quote:

Any Assasssin that is good can do 200+ dps

+200 dmg in one second from a sin??? Sorry but I don't play sin, can you perhaps enlighten me? I so badly want this build that does 200dmg in a sec.

Magragoc · May 23, 2010, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der Zeitgeist

+200 dmg in one second from a sin??? Sorry but I don't play sin, can you perhaps enlighten me? I so badly want this build that does 200dmg in a sec.

That's part of the problem. Stacked melee buffs like Orders, Strength of Honor, and Asura Scan make numbers like that very possible. Melee types output outrageous amounts of armor-ignoring damage, but they need a team built around them to do it.

Dark Paladin X · May 23, 2010, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Well, elementalists ARE quite overpowered in PvE. Considering that I had a hard time with Borrguus Blisterbark, who was a complete pain in the ass (pariticularly in HM). But in general, ele bosses are something to really fear and this is why many players would prioritize on the ele boss.

But I do admit, there are a few underpowered elementalist skills that needs to be changed (Ether Prodigy, Mist Form, Second Wind, Stone Sheath to name a few)

expugnare · May 23, 2010, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der Zeitgeist

E
+200 dmg in one second from a sin???

Have you never heard of critscythe?

**Marty Silverblade** · May 23, 2010, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X

Well, elementalists ARE quite overpowered in PvE. Considering that I had a hard time with Borrguus Blisterbark, who was a complete pain in the ass (pariticularly in HM). But in general, ele bosses are something to really fear and this is why many players would prioritize on the ele boss.

You missed the point. Ele foes in HM do lots of damage because of their level advantage, super high attributes, etc. We know that, and it's not an issue. The point is that player Ele's do crap damage because they're on the flipside of the aforementioned advantages.

On topic: I'd agree that Ele's need some kind of damage buff. I almost never play my Ele now because I expected to be nuking, but that's not helpful.

Magragoc · May 23, 2010, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

You missed the point. Ele foes in HM do lots of damage because of their level advantage, super high attributes, etc. We know that, and it's not an issue. The point is that player Ele's do crap damage because they're on the flipside of the aforementioned advantages.

It's part of the issue though; the OP recommended reducing Elementalist casting and recharge times to sub-two seconds, in addition to large damage buffs and inherent armor penetration. That would only exacerbate the inequity with HM bosses, and do more harm than good.

The hope is to find a way to bump up Elementalist damage without supercharging Ele bosses.