Curse

bhavv · Aug 09, 2011, 12:52 PM // 12:52

I recently did a chain of 3 wanted quests on HM on my elly, and I thought that they arent too hard so I would try out a fire build since I hadnt used fire in ages to see just how badly it does.

I used Mind Blast / Intensity / Rodgorts Invocation / Fireball / Glyph of Elemental Power / Ebsoh / Fire Attunement / Elemental Lord.

I decided to try and pump rodgorts invocation as high as I could, so with a sup fire rune, elemental attunement, and elemental lord it was at 19, I had +14 damage from a rank 9 Ebsoh, and I had weaken armor on a curses necro hero.

The result - I spent the majority of my time before each battle casting Fire Attunement > Elly Lord > Glyph of elly power > Intensity. This not only slowed me down like mad but was incredibly boring, and my target was always dead or near dead before I could cast RI.

When I did manage to cast my fully buffed RI -

162 damage on casters
77 damage on warriors / paragons
52 damage on rangers

With an 8 second cooldown. Ofc I also had fireball and mind blast to spam in the mean time, but they did a lot less damage, and with the amount of energy I had already used up by that point, mind blast wasnt returning any energy (I had 12+1 ES and a +20 energy staff too).

My mesmer and rit heroes were pretty much killing everything on their own without me, my team was weaker overall with an extra healer hero instead of me playing E/Mo, and most of the time I pretty much just stood around doing nothing because my spells were hardly doing enough good for the amount of stuff I was having to cast. I would have been a lot more better off simply taking an empty skill bar, or either just heal party + breath of the great dwarf to spam with Ether Renewal, or going /P and just taking fall back + incoming.

I've tried playing invoke lightning a few times as well, but it still feels incredibly weak sauce compared to what my mes, nec and rit heroes can do.

E/Mo or E/Rt gets really tedious after a while, I made an elly to nuke and kill things, but they are completely useless at that so I have to heal.

*Loads up an incredibly lazy bar with Heal Party, Breath of the Great Dwarf, Aegis, Extinguish, Ebsoc, Ether Renewal, Aura of Restoration and Elemental Lord instead and carries on to simply run through everything while my heroes do all the work.

peter81 · Aug 09, 2011, 01:19 PM // 13:19

it is why my Ele is used as a mule

bhavv · Aug 09, 2011, 01:41 PM // 13:41

My elly happens to be my main unfortunately with 21 titles so far.

I have a rit as well and playing it is just so massively unfair. All you need is soul twisting and shelter and the entire game turns into god mode, or you spirit spam and deal loads of damage and even solo farm UW (Elly UW solo farm was nerfed a long time ago).

Everything else keeps on getting buffed for PVE while ellys remain the weakest caster class, and dont do what they say in the manual - 'Most damage of any class'.

Bristlebane · Aug 09, 2011, 01:45 PM // 13:45

How would you suggest to put ele back into the game as one of the top damage dealers?

Adding armor penetration to Energy Storage would work but it wouldn't be very original.
Lowering mobs overall armor vs fire? (seems most logical)
Adding 25% armor penetration air-bender-style? (...)
Increasing fire damage? (not a fan of this)
Lowering other classes damage? (not a fan of this either)

bhavv · Aug 09, 2011, 02:05 PM // 14:05

I've already suggested lots of such ideas in many threads, but no one listens and most people think 'Ellys are fine in HM, they dont need a buff', so I'm not interested in making more suggestions. If other people want to suggest such ideas then they can feel free to use this thread to do that in.

More people seem to want ER ellys nerfed than wanting their elemental lines buffed, despite their ER builds still being weaker than ritualists, mesmers and necros.

pakhavit · Aug 09, 2011, 02:17 PM // 14:17

I think Fire ele is fine in hardmode. Did Vanquishing and almost every single hard mode mission with myself as burning arrow ranger, + 2 fire ele hero (dual attune rodgort+ fire aoe) and 1 mm flesh golem+ 4 hench. This was before gwen came out, no consumable (aside cc and 4leaf). I don't think the fire damage is that bad. Still working fine in WiK for me, I even use 2 fire ele in WoC last mission with body block for lolz. Double meteo + dual rodgort + 4 searing heat + perma burn from mark of rodgort, and myself dagger splinter + panic = boooom

I don't know about Player elementalist though, but I <3 my 2 fire ele hero.

Oh, damage suck if enemy is spread though because it's AoE :O

bhavv · Aug 09, 2011, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Try that in Eotn against destroyers or in HM Kathandrax.

Vanquishing the main campaigns is a lot easier than Eotn HM + WiK.

peter81 · Aug 09, 2011, 02:41 PM // 14:41

I suggest 1/4 cast time for meteor shower. It is all what i need

Reformed · Aug 09, 2011, 02:45 PM // 14:45

My issue with pleading to Anet to fix it really stems from their inability or unwillingness to thoughtfully balance their changes. The last thing this game needs is another 2-3 months of mindless insta-gib builds.

That being said...fire ele is not fine. You are basically stuck with air if you want to HM it or AP caller which relies on armor ignoring shout damage to make kills (ele build in spirit only). The one change I would support would be to functionally change Intensity so that it works with DoT spells. The armor ignoring packets it would then produce should make up for the big losses suffered in HM.

wilebill · Aug 09, 2011, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Rolled my ele back in Prophecies when Prophecies was all there was. Astounding amount of good fun back then. These days, the ele mostly farms feathers which I do only because it is sort of fun now and then.

Also good build on pvx for Ele farming glittering dust from Fog Nightmares outside ToA. But being lazy I use my SoS Ranger for that.

Really, adjusting the HM mobs to allow greater damage by elementalists seems the best answer. Early on I suggested that the Ele should also have a set of Summoner skills. Including perhaps Summon Random Creature. But ANet was filled with lack of imagination in those days and was having more fun swinging the nerf bat dangerously about.

Mouse at Large · Aug 09, 2011, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Personally I roll through HM with heroes using my ele with an earth build. 3x earth AoE, 3x PvE skills and attune and AoR.

Still waiting for Anet to wake up and give us a realistic damage buff, but as I've yammered on enough about my preference in this area in other threads I'll shut up now......

Grumpy Bear · Aug 09, 2011, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Try that in Eotn against destroyers or in HM Kathandrax.

Vanquishing the main campaigns is a lot easier than Eotn HM + WiK.

Why would you use fire against Destroyers? Destroyers are immune to burning and have +20 armour against fire damage.

I also don't know why you'd run Mind Blast in HM, in NM the damage is pretty pitiful and if you're using it to fuel Rodgorts spam then GoLE would do a better job especially when everything has higher energy in HM so even using it on Warriors for energy gain is pointless. But, I also don't see how you can run low on energy on ele...

A fire bar isn't effective in all areas but the same can be said of all bars, there isn't one bar that is going to be effective in every area of the game, you have to change to suit.

You aren't meant to be killing things alone, its why we have heroes/hench/team mates, its a team effort. Your team as a whole contributes to the overall damage output.

I have done everything on my ele, NM and HM, got GWAMM and such and have never had any complaints. I ran earth and air normally with heroes and if I played with people I ran SH. SH with an ES war is nice.

X-Plosiv · Aug 09, 2011, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Try that in Eotn against destroyers or in HM Kathandrax.

Vanquishing the main campaigns is a lot easier than Eotn HM + WiK.

I thought Elementalists have AIR magic as well. My guildie usually plays AIR/WATER than FIRE just because of that reason, and I've seen some playing with earth as well.

Going on fire magic against creatures that have high fire resistance is playing dumb. No offense. You won't see me playing as a interrupter ranger when having 2 mesmers in my team.

But I agree, elementalist and rangers should get buff in pve.

Xenomortis · Aug 09, 2011, 05:59 PM // 17:59

So what, we've finally realised that direct caster damage isn't good? Well this isn't new.
I don't even think that's much of a problem in itself; the real issue stems from the total devaluation of what Eles can do because PvE is so one dimensional and easy. Perhaps that's inevitable.

LifeInfusion · Aug 09, 2011, 06:10 PM // 18:10

very old news, discussed and calculated to death

Lord Dagon · Aug 09, 2011, 06:13 PM // 18:13

the thing that's wrong with eles is they're good in HM, just not with ele skills. They rely on assassin/monk skills to get the job done. Until anet either lowers elemental damage armor on enemies or makes elemental damage armor ignoring(which doesnt sound smart) we as elementalist are stuck using other classes skills.

pakhavit · Aug 10, 2011, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Try that in Eotn against destroyers or in HM Kathandrax.

Vanquishing the main campaigns is a lot easier than Eotn HM + WiK.

Try fire ele in Eotn? Done that since 3 weeks after Eotn came out and got my Legendary master of the north -_-

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...99#post3235999

2 fire ele, 1mm all the way. I don't play anything else. I did do Kathandrax with 2 fire ele too, wasted 2 power stone but not like it's impossible. The only hard one was Vloxen, Duncan, Soo. Need 6 heroes, and I went Searing Flame instead of Dual attune. Mass meteor shower> balled mob

Soo with 2 fire ele 2 ranger and a sin LOL we didn't know there're so many god dam blind

http://imageshack.us/f/525/gw455yt8.jpg/

Yes, first run ever. 2 weeks after Eotn came out.

I agreed with WiK only because the 4/6 man area require something better than fire aoe. But 8 man party in WiK and WoC doesn't affect the fire ele at all. I did WoC last mission with 3 fire ele 1 panic, 3 meteo shower + 6 searing heat is LOLZ. I jump in with 3 dagger combo+splinter and the whole 3 party disappear from fire aoe.

bhavv · Aug 10, 2011, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Just because you can complete the game with any build, doesnt make your build good.

I didnt state that you cant complete the whole game with a fire elly, I could complete the whole game with nothing but mending on my elementalist if I wanted to.

The high inefficiency of elementalists main attribute skills for damage in comparison to other classes is what the issue is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy Bear

Why would you use fire against Destroyers? Destroyers are immune to burning and have +20 armour against fire damage.

I wouldnt, and thats why I suggested it for the person who thought that fire damage is fine in HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy Bear

I also don't know why you'd run Mind Blast in HM, in NM the damage is pretty pitiful and if you're using it to fuel Rodgorts spam then GoLE would do a better job especially when everything has higher energy in HM so even using it on Warriors for energy gain is pointless. But, I also don't see how you can run low on energy on ele...

As I stated in the OP, it was a test build to see how much damage Rodgorts Invocation could deal so I was using Glyph of elly power instead of Gole. It wasnt a build designed for serious use in hard mode, but a simple test for fire damage in HM.

Mesmers constantly fire armor ignoring damage skills of at least 71 damage, and plenty more on others. Necros also have a lot of decent armor ignoring skills - just desecrate + defile enchantments have long been better than any skill that ellys possess for HM.

I dont use AoE spells ever in HM. Other than Eruption for the mass blind, the rest are pointless, cause rapid scatter meaning less damage from the skills, they have to long a recharge and there are too many more effective ways of 'killing things' with 7 heroes that dont rely on elementalist skills.

The only build that is slightly HM viable for elementalists with their primary skills in relation to other classes is Invoke / Chain Lighning builds, but even those are weaker than what the other caster classes can do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pakhavit

2 fire ele, 1mm all the way. I don't play anything else. I did do Kathandrax with 2 fire ele too, wasted 2 power stone but not like it's impossible.

Well you used cons. Try it again without cons and let me know how it goes.

Consumables are cheating to me in PVE, I never use them plus they cost too much.

I did HM kathandrax easily with an Elite Skill known as ward against harm, plus either mantra of flame or frigid armor on my heroes and completed each level with party wide morale boost and barely any deaths.

If you are using consumables to remove death penalty, then obviously your team is bad. If you didnt have consumables in your inventory, then how fast would you have failed the dungeon?

peter81 · Aug 10, 2011, 08:45 AM // 08:45

I did Kathandrax and Destroyers with my fire Elems. I always use Winter. Nice and quick

Xenomortis · Aug 10, 2011, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I wouldnt, and thats why I suggested it for the person who thought that fire damage is fine in HM.

Would you recommend someone try Shards of Orr HM if they wanted to see how good physicals were?
Although it's kind of moot with Asuran Scan now; way to go ANet.