Curse

PeaceEatery · Sep 10, 2011, 04:01 AM // 04:01

People say the Ele has been nerfed and i agree to an extent but i think earth magic really goes by without anyone knowticing

I am not a pro when making builds but maybe you can add your suggestions but something around the line of this

any of the ward spells, unsteady ground which would sync with with the knockdown spirit and binding chain to hold them down, stoneflesh aura for tanks, silver armour is another one magnetic auras, kinetic armour, glowstone, earthen shackles for unsteady ground, aftershock, and armour of earth along with earth attument. built correctly could seem to do some good damage with very good party support various other pve only skills would work well to

any other suggestions

----------

Okay i got a build start
E/RT
12+1+3 EM 9+1 ES 10 COM

Binding Chains, Unsteady Ground, Aftershock, Earthbind, Earth Attunment

there is a start maybe

Lanier · Sep 10, 2011, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Party support in the earth line is great due to the wards and KDs/conditions. Unfortunately, damage is lacking in HM due to the armor level of HM enemies.

PeaceEatery · Sep 10, 2011, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Party support in the earth line is great due to the wards and KDs/conditions. Unfortunately, damage is lacking in HM due to the armor level of HM enemies.

so drop aftershock i think the main use for US is knockdown?

i mean that is just a basic outline if you built into it, i think could become sweet build, seeing as how binding chains keeps them long enuff for US to trigger plus 3 second longer knockdown, most player builds nowadays don't do a lot of damage in hardmode that is heroes jobs these days

Lil Leena · Sep 10, 2011, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Earth magic is defensive rather than huge damage but as far as the damage spells go they're pretty in line with the other elements damage wise.

Aftershock is a bad skill outside of spikes so don't use it, you're an ele so you need to stay out of melee way rather than in their face.

Everything auto-attacks, even monks, so Unsteady Ground is a good skill to take advantage of the KDs. If you are in HM then Churning Earth is another good skill as enemies in HM move faster so they will get KD'd. But as with all AoE they will kite out of it.

I used Earth Magic in the majority of HM missions and VQs and never had any issues, in fact I found it quite fun. Think I used..
Unsteady Ground.
Churning Earth.
Stoning.
Glow Stone.
Earth Attunement.
GoLE.
Ward Against Melee/Elements.
Res.

For Stoning and Glow Stone to be effective there needs to be a source of weakness in the party, say Enfeeble on a Necro for example. The ward I switched depending on what we'd be facing, I also used Ward of Stability in some places, VQ'ing Droks to Beacons for example.

Mouse at Large · Sep 10, 2011, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Earth is my staple for HM in a hero group, but I accept it's main use is the utility combined with damage rather than direct damage itself.

Attune
AoR
Unsteady
Churning
Eruption
+3 PvE skills - currently EVAS, PI and Ice Imp (the choice will depend on your preference/experience)

With a reasonably set up hero team you can be effective just as long as you use your AoE skills sensibly.

On a personal note, apart from niche situations when you want to pull mobs to your static group, I find wards of any kind suboptimal and single target earth spells meh. PBAoE is generally for farming.

Xenomortis · Sep 10, 2011, 10:38 AM // 10:38

As far as an Elementalist is concerned, Earth Magic has two skills (not including the Attunement); Churning Earth and Eruption. This is basically the same for the other elements.
The wards require your party to ball up into a relatively tight area and in PvE, that's just asking for trouble. The elites in Earth Magic don't do anything worth losing Assassin's Promise either.

Jeydra · Sep 10, 2011, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Let's take a look at all the Earth Magic spells ...

Aftershock - going into melee range as an Elementalist is silly unless you are farming.
Armor of Earth - nice and all but it's a purely defensive skill. With Prot Spirit covering so much of PvE already and healing being so effective it's not necessary.
Ash Blast - you need strong reasons to use a single-target spell, and the fact that this deals so little damage basically rules it out as an option. You have better ways to inflict blind if you *really* need it (which you usually should not).
Churning Earth - is OK but 3s cast really hurts this spell.
Crystal Wave / Tenai's Crystals - see Aftershock. Going into melee range as an Elementalist is silly unless you are farming.
Dragon's Stomp / Earthquake - again, 3s cast really hurt these spells, and exhaustion doesn't help either. It means you can't AP them, with devastating consequences.
Earth Attunement - obviously you need this if you're going to use Earth, but it's not something you build around.
Earthen Shackles - is a snare. You usually don't need snares in PvE.
Ebon Hawk - is OK, but it's single-target. This would be a useful filler spell to round out an Earth bar.
Eruption - is again OK, but not spectacular. You're using it for damage, at which it does solidly but not spectacularly.
Glowstone - it's OK if you need to get extra energy somewhere for more powerful spells. Like Earth Attunement, this spell is something you use to power your bar. But there are no "more powerful spells" in Earth Magic ...
Grasping Earth - combines the worst of Aftershock and Earthen Shackles. You shouldn't be going into melee range and you shouldn't need snares.
Iron Mist - useless skill. You shouldn't need snares and by making the target immune to everything except Lightning you need to spec into two elements to actually do damage.
Kinetic Armour - see Armour of Earth, except it's harder to maintain.
Magnetic Aura - Aegis >>>> this spell, and it's much easier to use, too.
Obsidian Flame - if this didn't cause Exhaustion it would be a good spell, but it does so ...
Obsidian Flesh - is a purely farming spell. Irrelevant in standard PvE.
Sandstorm - if you need the damage it's OK but considering how powerful AP is this replacement elite had better be very powerful, which Sandstorm isn't.
Shockwave - see Aftershock. Going into melee range as an Elementalist is silly unless you are farming. It's not that you can't, but that even if you do your damage output is poor so why bother getting everything set up? I guess you could try something like getting a hero to cast Destruction and then you use Death's Charge into a mob, Shockwave + Crystal Wave + Tenai's Crystals and then Swap out to the Destruction spirit, but all that hassle for low damage is totally unappealing.
Sliver Armour - see Aftershock and Armour of Earth.
Stone Daggers - like Flare, this does low damage and eats up all your time and is single-target. Completely useless.
Stone Sheath - lulzy skill, completely useless outside of farming builds and even then I don't see it as a powerful option.
Stone Striker - again a farming skill. Completely useless.
Stoneflesh Aura - again a farming skill. Completely useless.
Stoning - see Ebon Hawk. This would be OK to round out a bar, but it's hardly powerful enough to build a bar around.
Unsteady ground - see Sandstorm.
Ward against X - Wards are weak in PvE. If you need the armour vs. Elements, you're better off splitting up. It's far better to have Savannah Heat hit only 2 players not protected by Ward Against Harm than it is to have the same Savannah Heat hit 8 players protected by Ward Against Harm. Besides, if you really needed the armour "Stand Your Ground!" is more powerful. Ward Against Melee is completely outclassed by Aegis, Ward Against Foes is a snare and therefore quite useless, Ward of Weakness is a defensive spell that you don't need more of and besides is difficult to use, and finally Ward of Stability has a useless side effect.

Earth Magic, like all the other Elementalist lines, is weak for a reason. You are simply better off relying on PvE skills + AP in general. Party support is superfluous because there's nothing important in Earth Magic that you can't do with 9 points in Protection Prayers + Aegis + Protective Spirit. Everything else is weak. If you want to use Earth Magic you're pretty much forced - like every other attribute line, to be fair - into AP + PvE skills + Churning Earth + Eruption. You could use something else, but that would be more an aesthetic choice than anything else.

Quote:

As far as an Elementalist is concerned, Earth Magic has two skills (not including the Attunement); Churning Earth and Eruption. This is basically the same for the other elements.

Fire actually has more - Meteor Shower is excellent (if it weren't so difficult to use), Fireball and Liquid Flame are OK nukes (like Ebon Hawk and Stoning in Earth Magic) except they actually deal AoE damage, and the same applies to Rodgort's Invocation. It doesn't make Fire stronger than Earth, though.

AndrewSX · Sep 10, 2011, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Let's take a look at all the Earth Magic spells ...

Aftershock - ...
-snip-
...If you want to use Earth Magic you're pretty much forced - like every other attribute line, to be fair - into AP + PvE skills + Churning Earth + Eruption. You could use something else, but that would be more an aesthetic choice than anything else.

I was going to reply the OP, but then saw this. Seriously, there's anything else to add?

The Ok stuff is limited by single-target/long cast-CD times/exaustion, there are surely too much PBAoE spells (which can't be used on allies!-unlike A-rage), too much armor/defensive stuff (again, usable only on self, which is great for farming, but...), and wards. Also there's stuff like Sliver-stoneflesh-OF-blabla which are great only in a gimmick like farm/Sc...which means useless everywhere else.
The only added utility of the line is the presence of some nice KD spells (churning, stonnig + any form of weak, unsteady), but this isn't enough to justify a large use of Earth in high pve.

-About Earth vs. Fire...Fire probably wins for the nice AoE that most skills have w/o a lolwhut cost/CD as burden. But Air beats both..and AP beats all three.

-Ah, Water magic needs serious help...i usually forget the existence of that line apart Deep freeze and maybe maelstrom.

Thenameless Wonder · Sep 10, 2011, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Everyone needs to drop the assumption that Assassins Promise must be taken on all AoE ele bars. I realize it's potential but it is a very OP skill to have on your bar, appreciate if you use another skill other than AP.

But to the discussion, earth magic isn't geared towards AoE damage or single target damage, earth magic shines on the ability to be both defensive and offensive party wide. Shockwave is a great skill if everyone is balled up, sandstorm is great on auto attacking foes, the wards can help keep a team alive and there are many earth skills that can keep an ele alive.

HigherMinion · Sep 10, 2011, 09:57 PM // 21:57

The only good Earth Magic ward is the Ward of Stability, and that is only really worth it's slot in the Jotun dungeon and maybe one or two more areas. Churning and Eruption with EBSoH and AP are great damage and support.

Anaraky · Sep 11, 2011, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thenameless Wonder

Everyone needs to drop the assumption that Assassins Promise must be taken on all AoE ele bars. I realize it's potential but it is a very OP skill to have on your bar, appreciate if you use another skill other than AP.

But to the discussion, earth magic isn't geared towards AoE damage or single target damage, earth magic shines on the ability to be both defensive and offensive party wide. Shockwave is a great skill if everyone is balled up, sandstorm is great on auto attacking foes, the wards can help keep a team alive and there are many earth skills that can keep an ele alive.

Of course you don't need AP, you don't need any specific bar in PvE. Hell you can play a 6-attribute split build if you want, but that doesn't make it worth having a discussion over. The OP asked if Earth was underrated or not, people are obviously going to compare it to the best possible build that Eles can use that fill a similar role. Which is AP.

And no, Earth eles doesn't shine at anything. Sad but true. Everything they can do Mesmers can do better.

LifeInfusion · Sep 12, 2011, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thenameless Wonder

Everyone needs to drop the assumption that Assassins Promise must be taken on all AoE ele bars. I realize it's potential but it is a very OP skill to have on your bar, appreciate if you use another skill other than AP.

But to the discussion, earth magic isn't geared towards AoE damage or single target damage, earth magic shines on the ability to be both defensive and offensive party wide. Shockwave is a great skill if everyone is balled up, sandstorm is great on auto attacking foes, the wards can help keep a team alive and there are many earth skills that can keep an ele alive.

Um for Earth Magic, I'd say AP is the best thing you can use with it.

Unsteady Ground is nice, but in HM things jump out of AoE after a few seconds unless you have a snare.

Glyph of Renewal? Then you get one spell recharge only every 10 seconds and you can't use it with Glyph of Lesser Energy.

Elemental Attunement? Nothing that great in Earth to build around. You're probably better off with Glyph of Lesser Energy for stuff like Churning Earth, Eruption, or Earthquake.

Sand Storm is generally lame damage without an AoE snare like Deep Freeze and even with an AoE snare it only works on stuff that is ranged or melee that has settled into attacking position already.

For me, Earth magic boils down to:
Eruption for AoE blind that can deal with Antidote signet and single removals
Ward of Stability for the only AoE anti-KD
Ward against melee for holding areas where enchantments don't work (Aegis/Prot Spirit/Seed of Life/Shield of Absorption/etc) and you don't have "Save Yourselves!" to deal with melee/ranged
Ash Blast isn't that great but you could use it with "YMLAD!" or Gale (not really that wonderful for PvE) ; having single-target blind once every 8-10 seconds or so is very lame unless it's a physical monster boss that doesn't die quickly to armor-ignoring damage ... if it's Prophecies blind doesn't last very long on bosses
Magnetic Surge is mediocre damage (due to recharge/cast time) in areas where there are elementalists and enchantments flying around (120 @15 Earth on enchanted targets). It does 75 @15 Earth regardless, so it's about equal to 106 damage before 80 armor or 150 on 100 armor.
Churning Earth :a hard-to-use, slow casting snare in HM; I've had mobs run out of it in HM

Before now:
Earthquake used to be borderline decent before Psychic Instability came around and spells across the board got faster cast times (meaning you can't interrupt with this very well) , Meteor is a better choice
Stone striker to be used with Mantra of Earth for a more robust character in the days when there was only large armor-reduced damage
Armor of Earth for a more robust character (survivor?) when it was only prophecies, but with the amount of armor ignoring damage due to insanity of damage increases to armor-ignoring sources
Stone Daggers: a ranged excuse of breaking Reversal of Fortune spam (before Dancing Daggers was around) or powering Ether Renewal+Aura of Restoration (there's no other real use)
Obsidian Flame: obsidian flame spike has only been used for PvP
Glowstone: energy management that's a projectile is harder to use than other elements' energy management such as Glowing Ice and Glowing Gaze; Earth doesn't have any non-projectile weakness-causing skills
Stoning: projectile based KD with a conditional pales in comparison to "YMLAD!"
Unsteady Ground: could use a lower recharge via Glyph of Swiftness

BigfootJ · Nov 07, 2011, 10:22 PM // 22:22

I like my earth build better than all my other builds for hard mode.

My Earth skill bar:

EVAS
Churning Earth
Unsteady Ground
Eruption
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Earth Attunement
Necrosis or YMLaD
EBSoH

Pros
----
Works like a charm for me. EBSoH adds damage to each tick of DoT which is nice and boosts my team's damage. Eruption is great for saving casters from melee that run up on my party. Unsteady ground gets me multiple KDs every cast and foes stay in there longer. Necrosis is great spammage when the other spells are on recharge. YMLaD helps keep foes in the DoT. Sometimes the scatter helps manage the damage better. I get multiple knockdowns all the time.

Cons
----
Some of the cast times are long. Damage is not awesome but what ele damage is in hard mode. Sometimes when a caster runs from the dot it runs out the back and draws my team in too far.

P.S. I like to run a hero mesmer with Shared Burden and this helps immensely. Twice the spell cast time means they stand in the DoT longer, and run away at half speed. This makes churning earth KD somewhat less effective. Also, Weaken Armor is nice to have on someones else's skill bar.