Curse

Kunder · Jan 06, 2012, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Death's Charge
Star Burst
Phoenix
Flame Burst
Flame Djinn's Haste
Kinetic Armor/Armor of Earth (heroes)
Stoneflesh Aura
Fire Attunement

Using 12/10/8 attribute distribution. (11/11/8 works fine too).

Kinetic armor hits +76 armor when cast with sup earth rune (only need to do it once, then switch to sup fire). Make yourself a 140 armor tank that has a further 23 damage reduction (which would be the equivalent of 92 damage reduction on a 60 armor character, since it applies after armor reduction). Or in other words the definition of invincible.

Armor of Earth will only hit 110 armor (warrior level) along with the damage reduction, which isn't totally invincible but should be more than enough assuming you have a healer on the team paying attention. Heroes will be well protected assuming you pay attention to have them keep up the prots.

Star Burst makes energy management a non-issue unless group sizes are very small (most of the time you get back 10 energy per usage). Flame Burst is just piling on more damage. Using 3x ele heroes along with myself, Star Burst + Flame Burst is a 1k spike as soon as we teleport in. Phoenix is a ridiculous spike if you are in adjacent range (over 200 damage, highest in the game from a single skill). Flame Djinn's haste is just a really nice speed boost when you have to chase things around.

Death's Charge because why the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO not, get in there and take aggro instantly.

Any suggestions for further improvements?

ultimak719 · Jan 06, 2012, 01:24 AM // 01:24

I don't think you need stoneflesh and armor of earth/kinetic armor. One damage reducer is enough because you can bring prots or minion walls, etc. Also, it would make getting ready for a fight a long time. So remove one and put in Aura of Restoration, which makes you heal anyways. Other than that, looks good if you can get the ball to stay together, you might want to bring a water magic ele for that.

Kunder · Jan 06, 2012, 01:32 AM // 01:32

The intention is that you teleport in when most mobs are closely packed from the start, so minion walls are behind, and that you use it with multiple eles, meaning single target prots won't work so it only leaves only ST as an effective prot. At the least I think both prots are needed for the armor of earth ele heros, who only have 110 armor base otherwise.

Nice thing with Kinetic is that you cast it once and it stays up forever unless you face enchant strip, so for the player thats only 1 prot skill to cast per mob.

Chthon · Jan 06, 2012, 01:35 AM // 01:35

I worry about Kinetic since it's prone to catastrophic failure if it gets stripped or can't be renewed.

I'd maybe consider changing FDH for Burning Speed to give yourself a spammy no-target-required spell that can also serve as a cover enchant. Sure, Flame Burst can be spammed within Kinetic's recharge period, but it's 15e and you'd probably rather save it for spiking.

Even then, I still might consider using Armor of Earth to avoid the issue entirely. I'd have to try it out thoroughly and see how often I end up losing Kinetic.

The recharge on Death's Charge is awful. I'd be tempted to either drop the shadow step idea altogether or try to get creative with Viper's Defense or Scorpion Wire to get a faster recharge.

[edit: I'm an idiot. You can't cover Kinetic at all. Durrrr....]

[further edit: Another possibility is low-spec Frozen Burst (or Ward Against Foes) in place of Flame Djinn or Death's Charge. Hold them in range for nuking.

I suppose you could also slot a source of cracked armor in that space as well. Another damage-boost possibility: EBSoH might be nice if you stayed in it very long.

This seems like a perfect application for Ward of Weariness, except you're already going to be bordering on immune to base attack damage. It's a shame, since it seems like there's just never a good use for it.

Going down a whole different road, what about trying to get more uses out of Star Burst? Maybe something like Arcane Echo, Air of Superiority, EBSoW, etc. might justify a spot.]

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 06, 2012, 02:33 AM // 02:33

So far, I've found that Star Burst is pretty much just a PvE version of Mind Blast. If I were going to run it, it would be on a Utility Hero or a Player with something like:

Shadowstep --> EBSoH --> Intensity --> Phoenix --> Lava Burst --> Star Burst

...and it would be in a team with other Shadowstepping Elementalists, one of which would be using Mirror of Ice and another with Shockwave.

Edit:
I shall be the bearer of bad news:
1) Hero's will not use Mirror of Ice. Ever. It's like they are trying to position themselves to do it, but never make up their mind.
2) Heroes will use Shockwave the moment a foe is within the maximum range, cutting it's damage into a third. You'd have to put a sword on 'em to keep them at optimal range, as they don't like to stand next to targets if they are holding a wand.
3) With Starburst, Heroes like to run to a foe, use it, then run away. Ton of DPS is lost this way.

Kunder · Jan 06, 2012, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I'd maybe consider changing FDH for Burning Speed to give yourself a spammy no-target-required spell that can also serve as a cover enchant. Sure, Flame Burst can be spammed within Kinetic's recharge period, but it's 15e and you'd probably rather save it for spiking.

Even then, I still might consider using Armor of Earth to avoid the issue entirely. I'd have to try it out thoroughly and see how often I end up losing Kinetic.

Don't really need to spam spells to keep it up. Kinetic w/ 20% enchant lasts 10s. Worst case you can alternate between Flame Djinn's Haste and Fire Attunement to keep it up another 20s for 12 energy after the attunement.

Vs enchant removal its certainly an area-dependent thing you could change up from time to time. The chance to be 100% immune to everything not armor ignoring is kind of fun to take once in a while though. Prot spirit or ST ready for the odd removal should suffice for rare instances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The recharge on Death's Charge is awful. I'd be tempted to either drop the shadow step idea altogether or try to get creative with Viper's Defense or Scorpion Wire to get a faster recharge.

I agree on the recharge being annoying, but in most areas (where enemies like to stand close together) teleporting into the middle of the group with this build changes a 20s battle into a 5s battle. The other shadow steps can't do that, enemy melee will spread from casters in 2s or less. If I had to drop Death's Charge I would scrap /A altogether.

Quote:

[further edit: Another possibility is low-spec Frozen Burst (or Ward Against Foes) in place of Flame Djinn or Death's Charge. Hold them in range for nuking.

Not a bad idea for the Kinetic build (armor of earth needs the speed boost from flame Djinn). Replacing Death's Charge still gives the problem that you need to spend time playing tricks with enemy AI to get them to fully mob up in a delicious fashion.

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I suppose you could also slot a source of cracked armor in that space as well. Another damage-boost possibility: EBSoH might be nice if you stayed in it very long.

Don't think Cracked Armor can really fit in, a good idea for another caster. In tune with the snaring idea above, perhaps a Fevered Dreams build with both Cracked Armor and Cripple?

EDIT: Switching over to Shockwave on an ele would work. Problem is that you lose all of your energy management this way, so the rest of the build needs to be fixed as well.

Quote:

Going down a whole different road, what about trying to get more uses out of Star Burst? Maybe something like Arcane Echo, Air of Superiority, EBSoW, etc. might justify a spot.

Arcane Echo would definitely be ridiculous damage output, but I don't like the downtime and loss of /A IMO. But not a bad switch for areas where mobs don't often clump together for shadowstep kills.

Air of Superiority is more of a thing for long recharge skills, not too much benefit with short duration skills that I can see.

EBSoW I'm ruling out because you generally move around alot (unless you shadowstep in, in which case enemies probably aren't surviving the first salvo anyway.

So far, I've found that Star Burst is pretty much just a PvE version of Mind Blast. If I were going to run it, it would be on a Utility Hero or a Player with something like:

Quote:

Shadowstep --> EBSoH --> Intensity --> Phoenix --> Lava Burst --> Star Burst

...and it would be in a team with other Shadowstepping Elementalists, one of which would be using Mirror of Ice and another with Shockwave.

Edit:
I shall be the bearer of bad news:
1) Hero's will not use Mirror of Ice. Ever. It's like they are trying to position themselves to do it, but never make up their mind.
2) Heroes will use Shockwave the moment a foe is within the maximum range, cutting it's damage into a third. You'd have to put a sword on 'em to keep them at optimal range, as they don't like to stand next to targets if they are holding a wand.
3) With Starburst, Heroes like to run to a foe, use it, then run away. Ton of DPS is lost this way.

Are you giving your heroes ranged weapons or ranged spells when using starburst? That may explain them running away. Might also try attack mode.

Sucks that AI is so bad for other options. I noticed that hero AI for Energy Boon is perfect though

One thing that might be worth trying is a water build + Lava Font/Bed of Coals + EBSoH + a gust build that knocks down everything running away. Sounds awesome but probably too complex to expect heroes to use correctly.

Voodoo Rage · Jan 06, 2012, 05:16 AM // 05:16

It's a fun build concept. My only beef is that if you are running a group of PBAoE Ele's, it might make more sense to not have them all carry Star Burst since the burning bonus won't stack.

Jeydra · Jan 06, 2012, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Go /A with Daggers, bring Conjure Flame, Jagged Strike, Fox Fangs and Death Blossom, and bring in Splinter Weapon / SoH / I Am The Strongest, I Am Unstoppable if you're having trouble staying alive or Cripple's getting to you, and wonder why you're using PBAoE @_@

Kunder · Jan 06, 2012, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Splinter Weapon/Death Blossom has an AoE about 1/4th as large, and it requires 2 people to do (since you aren't casting Splinter Weapon on yourself). Nevermind SoH, which requires a 3rd character and really isn't that useful.

You trade a bit less damage for a lot more range and being able to field more damage dealers. You hit around 40-50 DPS in most situations. Not intended to spike out things on its own, but when its hitting most of the enemy group and you have 3 or 4 of them at once its a clean sweep. If Anet could lower Death's Charge's recharge to 5s you would be hopping from group to group instakilling everything.

FoxBat · Jan 06, 2012, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Go /A with Daggers, bring Conjure Flame, Jagged Strike, Fox Fangs and Death Blossom, and bring in Splinter Weapon / SoH / I Am The Strongest, I Am Unstoppable if you're having trouble staying alive or Cripple's getting to you, and wonder why you're using PBAoE @_@

Star Burst is still probably the best elite for this build, its emanage with a bit of damage to make up for the cast time.

Jeydra · Jan 07, 2012, 12:24 AM // 00:24

40-50 DPS really isn't a lot, I did 60-70 maintainable, ranged DPS in the other thread. Requiring Splinter and SoH support isn't the same as requiring two other characters as well. Those are single skills in strong attribute lines, not difficult to use at all. Smiting Monks and Channeling Rits are damage dealers fulfilling vital roles. If you try a melee build out you'll quickly note that you deal more damage by attacking than by using Star Burst (at least, you should if you're practicing basic aggro techniques) and then you'll note how bad PBAoE is, especially since you've got the aftercast.

Not to say Star Burst is terrible. It got significantly buffed, and it's still a decent elite for such a build. But ... there's no point dedicating a full character to PBAoE.

Kunder · Jan 07, 2012, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

40-50 DPS really isn't a lot, I did 60-70 maintainable, ranged DPS in the other thread. Requiring Splinter and SoH support isn't the same as requiring two other characters as well.

I can run 4 PBAoE characters for 4x damage. You would need 4 assassins, 4 rits, and 4 SoHs to multiple your damage 4 fold. Saying "you" did the 60-70 damage is misleading when its the combined effort of multiple characters, and then comparing that to a single character on their own gives a misleading view.

Straight DPS comparisons also don't work without comparing the AoE ranges. If its hitting 50% more enemies on average then it is equivalent in overall damage.

EDIT: Wait, is your "60-70" number from the "elementalist DPS" thread, which is specifically Single Target damage and runnable by Players Only? In that case the comparison is so far off that it isn't really applicable at all. Everyone knows that AP is imba btw, but its a totally different kind of purpose. Theoretically the best build in the game is 8x AP 8x YMLaD 8x FH that would spike an enemy to death instantly every second, but heroes can't run it (though I would love to try it sometime).

Quote:

Those are single skills in strong attribute lines, not difficult to use at all. Smiting Monks and Channeling Rits are damage dealers fulfilling vital roles. If you try a melee build out you'll quickly note that you deal more damage by attacking than by using Star Burst (at least, you should if you're practicing basic aggro techniques) and then you'll note how bad PBAoE is, especially since you've got the aftercast.

Channeling isn't that strong of a line outside of SW (considering ancestors got nerfed again). Smite has nothing really useful but smite hex/condition, which are nice but hardly deal breakers, and RoJ which gets dodged too much and has a horrid recharge. Also SoH really, really isn't that great in the first place, notably in assassin builds it can actually be hurtful to kill your primary target and end your chain. You would be better off running 2x rits than 1x rit 1x smite.

"aggro" tactics are annoying as hell to play and incredibly boring, not to mention that if you use them then it really doesn't matter if you run physical or 6x shitter flames. The point of the build is teleportation into groups to wipe them instantly, not slowly pulling enemies into a group and then nuke them. If you haven't tested it with multiple eles and killed 5 or 6 enemy groups in under 3s (total time since first aggro, not after 10s of pulling enemies into a group manually) then you are missing the point.

Jeydra · Jan 07, 2012, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Ugh missing the point.

You don't need to run 4x Assassins with another 4 copies of Splinter and SoH to multiply your damage four fold, because stacking melee damage does not stack total damage output. Two Assassins do not deal twice as much damage as one Assassin. Straight DPS comparisons do matter because the 60-70 DPS I quoted comes after accounting for AoE damage. If you're dealing 50 DPS only then you have trouble. Also I don't believe you can kill 5-6 enemy groups in under 3s. You can only cast two spells in 3s, and if one of them is Death's Charge then you're implying you kill an entire mob with 4 copies of Star Burst - not believable.

Channeling and Smiting are about as strong attribute lines as there is out there. Can you name a much stronger attribute line? Also if you don't like SoH making Assassin chains difficult to complete, you can always go E/W Sword or Axe and bring Whirlwind Attack or something, the only problem of course is the IAS and the lack of fast-activating attack skills.

Finally when I was playing around with Star Burst yesterday, I got balls fast without taking a long time because I'm the only melee. I'd also call using Death's Charge to ball monsters an aggro technique, btw, and the same applies here. If you can ball and aggro and destroy monsters quickly with Death's Charge -> Star Burst + other PBAoE, so can someone do the same with Death's Charge -> Jagged Strike + Fox Fangs + Death Blossom + melee buffs.

Anyway this isn't the right way to discuss it. PBAoE is an option now, if nothing else. If you enjoy running it, go right ahead. I just think it's subpar.

Kunder · Jan 07, 2012, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Ugh missing the point.

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You don't need to run 4x Assassins with another 4 copies of Splinter and SoH to multiply your damage four fold, because stacking melee damage does not stack total damage output.

Quote:

Two Assassins do not deal twice as much damage as one Assassin.

Wait what? You rephrased my point perfectly. 2x eles = 2x damage. 2x assassins != 2x damage.

Your statement that you don't "need" to run 4x assassins doesn't make sense. You don't "need" to run anything but flare spammers to beat PvE, but you do "want" to run something better than flare spammers, just as you "want" to run something that increases your total damage output to the maximum.

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Straight DPS comparisons do matter because the 60-70 DPS I quoted comes after accounting for AoE damage. If you're dealing 50 DPS only then you have trouble.

Ok, checking your numbers you are misleading in MANY ways. Frankly your numbers are so unusable that you shouldn't have even posted them.

My 40-50 DPS is per enemy hit. Your 60-70 DPS is assuming 3 enemies are hit by your multi-hit attacks. Against 3 enemies I deal a total of 120-150 DPS. Furthermore I'm not even considering 40/40 sets, which could boost me higher.

Quote:

Also I don't believe you can kill 5-6 enemy groups in under 3s. You can only cast two spells in 3s, and if one of them is Death's Charge then you're implying you kill an entire mob with 4 copies of Star Burst - not believable.

DC after cast - .75s
Star Burst cast - .75s
Star Burst after cast - .75s
Flame Burst cast - .75s

3s total.

Damage - 4 x (119 + 127) = 984 damage. Against 80 AL, thats still a comfortable 700 damage. For 100 AL you will most likely need to cast Phoenix which does another 4 x (112 + 90) = 856 damage, for a total of 1840 damage per target in 5.75s, or 970 vs AL 100. Basically the only thing with a chance to live through it all is the 140 armor stuff, which I'm not sure even exists anymore.

Granted, perfect coordination between eles isn't going to happen, but you can get damn close to 3s/5.75 with quick keyboard work to queue hero abilities.

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Channeling and Smiting are about as strong attribute lines as there is out there. Can you name a much stronger attribute line?

If Splinter Weapon and SoH were removed, would they be strong lines? I don't argue that they are strong lines, but they aren't strong lines outside of those skills, which was the point that the rit/monk was primarily a tool to increase the physicals damage. 1x rit + 1x monk + 1x physical is vastly beaten by 3x ele in total damage. Of course, the rit and monk can provide a lot of extra defense and healing, but if comparing damage the eles win out easily.

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Also if you don't like SoH making Assassin chains difficult to complete, you can always go E/W Sword or Axe and bring Whirlwind Attack or something, the only problem of course is the IAS and the lack of fast-activating attack skills.

Nah, its just that 20 damage per hit doesn't matter if your objective is to aggro everything together and use splinter weapon. SoH isn't likely to harm you, its simply a lot less powerful than 2x splinter weapon, which is why I'm not sure why you try to stuff SoH into the discussion.

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Finally when I was playing around with Star Burst yesterday, I got balls fast without taking a long time because I'm the only melee. I'd also call using Death's Charge to ball monsters an aggro technique, btw, and the same applies here. If you can ball and aggro and destroy monsters quickly with Death's Charge -> Star Burst + other PBAoE, so can someone do the same with Death's Charge -> Jagged Strike + Fox Fangs + Death Blossom + melee buffs.

I teleport in for melee all the time with my dervish. This is as powerful or more, because of the larger AoE. With my dervish I can often kill most of the group, but the lower AoE usually leaves at least 1 or 2 enemies running around to die 10s later. Nearby/In the Area damage kills things _now_.

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Anyway this isn't the right way to discuss it. PBAoE is an option now, if nothing else. If you enjoy running it, go right ahead. I just think it's subpar.

I don't disagree that it is somewhat subpar. The main problem is that the shadowstep takes forever to recharge. SF spam is almost certainly the strongest build again. PBAoE beats SF somewhat while the teleport is ready and you have very good hero micro, but without either its quite a bit slower. Total damage output is on par or higher, the main obstacle is that annoying "walking" you have to do.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 07, 2012, 06:32 AM // 06:32

PBAoE is viable, but with Hero AI the way it is, it's prone to catastrophic failure. It may be used on Heroes for some fun VQ'ing, but will only be used by players in any high-end areas (because 200 Damage Shockwave is fun!)

If anything, Starburst gives solo Ele's another option while VQ'ing. Nothing really game changing, as Ele's still don't pack the Utility that Mesmers, Rits, and Necromancers bring.

Jeydra · Jan 07, 2012, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

I don't disagree that it is somewhat subpar. The main problem is that the shadowstep takes forever to recharge. SF spam is almost certainly the strongest build again. PBAoE beats SF somewhat while the teleport is ready and you have very good hero micro, but without either its quite a bit slower. Total damage output is on par or higher, the main obstacle is that annoying "walking" you have to do.

Then we're done

Kunder · Jan 07, 2012, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Then we're done

Nice cherry picking. It knocks the pants off of any invoke build, pre nerf or post nerf. It only fails to an even more overpowered SF build.

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If anything, Starburst gives solo Ele's another option while VQ'ing. Nothing really game changing, as Ele's still don't pack the Utility that Mesmers, Rits, and Necromancers bring.

True, but 4 tanks soaking up damage can be considered a kind of utility of its own.

Enchantment strips really ruins it for high level areas though.

Swingline · Jan 07, 2012, 03:08 PM // 15:08

I think your looking at this the wrong way. Starburst turns you into a front-liner and the main goal besides protecting yourself is taking advantage of the attention.

12 Fire, 9 ES, 9 Earth, rest in Insp Magic

Starburst
Phoenix
Flame Burst
Burning Speed
Armor of Earth
Stone Striker
Fire Attunement
Mantra of Earth

Dont forget the + armor vs earth insignias

Kunder · Jan 07, 2012, 11:04 PM // 23:04

I really like the mantra of earth as a non-teleport version. Someone should start putting together ele-heavy teams that abuse the two.

bhavv · Jan 08, 2012, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

I really like the mantra of earth as a non-teleport version. Someone should start putting together ele-heavy teams that abuse the two.

Something like this?

I'm still grinding double faction in RA atm, so cant try anything properly.