Curse

expugnare · Jan 18, 2012, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Has anyone tried Blinding Surge Ele as a possible replacement to Ineptitude?

This way you can run 2x Domination Mesmers to destroy dangerous casters, while still shutting down problematic Melee. (Dementia and Fury Titans in Foundry come to mind).

Lanier · Jan 18, 2012, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I tried this using Lightning Hammer in the optional slot + Shell Shock instead of Shock Arrow. It was hideously bad. It's not just because of the single-target damage nature. Faults with this build include:

1. I suspect the hero can't manage exhaustion even with only Chain Lightning. I did not pay close attention, but I did try using Invoke Lightning without Chain Lightning and the energy drops faster than it replenishes.
2. You lose a heap of energy if the target dies before you finish casting, and with the spiky nature that Invoke Eles are supposed to be, you run out of energy way too fast for comfort. GoLE could compensate a bit, but the 25e invested into Lightning Hammer is still serious.
3. The hero seems not to upkeep Elemental Attunement as well as he should. This is deadly to energy management. Perhaps it has something to do with 16 Air spec and "only" 10 Energy Storage.

At the moment, I think Air is a pretty dead attribute line. Like Water, there isn't enough worth using on a hero (although AP Air is still the best offensive Elementalist build out there).

I was referring to using it on a human build. My bad for not being clear about that.

Swingline · Jan 18, 2012, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Searing Flames takes the throne as the Ele elite of choice. Even with Destroyers being immune to it, it offers bar compression which in turn can utilize speed to clear areas very fast. Below is a build I had amazing success with.

Player SF Bar

Arcane Echo
Searing Flames
Glowing Gaze
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Glyph of Sacrifice
Meteor Shower
Fire Attunement
Elemental Lord

16 Fire Magic
13 Energy Storage

Hero SF bars

Hero 1,2 and 3
Searing Flames
Glowing Gaze
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Fire Attunement
Aura of Restoration
Stand Your Ground(For Hero 3 switch to any skill of your choice, CTC is best if going against touchers)
Fallback
We Shall Return(Cancel and micro yourself)

16 Fire Magic(12 + 1 from Headpiece + 3 from Superior Rune of Fire Magic)
10 Energy Storage(12 +1 from Minor Energy Storage Rune)
9 Command

All 3 heroes should have 40/40 fire sets.

The entire goal of of this hero build is to offer great speed and good defense. All damage comes from Searing Flames, its massive range and very short recharge offer all the damage you need on 1 bar. It is best to leave Searing Flames as the only damage skill on the ele bars, this is so they spam it.

Please take note, many foes fuch as Destroyers and Magma Blisters are immune to the burning condition. It is very imprtant to have a back up hero team in place of the eles if going into a mission or area with destroyers. You can also replace the bar with another fire build without burning and convert elemental damage to cold with the global skill Winter. Titans can burn but have high armor against fire just like destroyers, bring Winter or change heroes. The Titans in the quests Defend Droknars Forge and Defend Denravi are susceptible to fire damage unlike their cousins from the fire islands.

The reason for 2 Stand your Grounds is because there are not many choices in the command line. It will give your party +24 defense while not moving 100% of the time if micro'd and close to 100% if left for the heroes to activate.

We Shall Return is on all 3 because again there is not much that the command line can offer this particular build. It also servers the purpose of a fast global resurrect skill in case something goes wrong and your other rezzers are down.With all 3 Eles packing it any 1 can be left alive and rez the entire party. If not using Mesmers or Rits with Flesh of My Flesh then you can replace 2 We Shall Returns with Signet of Return for a unlimited free rez. Take note, in terms of speed, FoMF(Mesmer) > FoMF(Rit) > Signet of Return.

If you are curious about the other heores I used...

SoS/Resto Rit
IV/Resto Necro
ST Shelter/Displacement(canceled and micro'd displacement in case aegis was not enough)
AoTL MM with Aegis, Weaken Armor, Deathly Swarm and Putrid Bile.

Edit: I screwed up the hex removal. Its on the ST rit as Inspired Hex, Revealed Hex and Hex Eater Sig.

IchibanK · Jan 19, 2012, 01:34 AM // 01:34

@Lanier

Jeydra's post does a pretty good job of outlining the problems that arise from replacing shock arrow and using Lightning Hammer. These also apply when on a human bar - the difference is that a human player is better at controlling when Lightning Hammer is used - and you will need to control it.

This tends to negate it's fast recharge - you simply can't sustain it that way. Even with Lightning Orb you will still lose energy from casts that fail to land. The difference is that the loss from Lightning Orb or occasional enchantment strip is much more easily covered that from Lightning Hammer.

This may be down to player preference, and academic to anyone running AP but my preference is to leave Lighting Hammer off of any lightning build - you will have a more robust build - and higher damage in the long run.

@Jeydra

The hero build is an equivalent for your pre-nerf invoke hero build. It offers comparable single target dps with comparable energy management.

I am not surprised in the least that a build without Shock Arrow and with Lightning Hammer ran into problems.

I will address your 'faults' here:

1. Managing Exhaustion - This may be true if you are under continuous combat, chain pulling or moving very very quickly to the next combat? It has never occurred for me and I can only imagine it happening in zones that are so easy as for the exhaustion to not matter. You may wish to test further on this - I'd be interested in some actual numbers on this.

2. Lighning Hammer uses too much energy - Your 'fault' here is about taking Lighting Hammer - you are correct. Lighning Hammer should not be taken I'm not sure why you chose to add it?

3. Without Lightning Hammer and with Shock Arrow back on the bar you will find that even a single attunement will keep the hero going for a while. In some ways dual attunement gives the hero better resilience than before - lower recharge on Elemental Attunement means faster to re-apply if stripped. This is needed to balance the occasional loss of 15e from Lightning bolt (and casting of Paragon shouts). Continuous enchantment stripping will shutdown the hero - but that is just as true of your previous hero build (and pretty much most elemental builds).

I make no claims that this is in any way the current 'best' option for elemental heros. Only that it represents a valid alternative to your previous heros to retain similar damage and playstyle.

Edit:

Exhaustion from Chain Lightning turned out to be fairly easy to analyse. Continuous dps firing Chain Lightning at every opportunity will generate ~.67 exhaustion per second. Exhaustion is recovered at .33ex/s meaning that continual cast will accumulate ~.34ex/s.

If the hero spends more time in combat than out they will accumulate exhaustion, if they spend more time out of combat (healing/moving to next pull) than in they will not.

Just for completeness, Invoke with faster cast will require about approximately 30% more out of combat time than in combat time to recover the exhaustion it generates.

Googi · Jan 19, 2012, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by IchibanK

I make no claims that this is in any way the current 'best' option for elemental heros. Only that it represents a valid alternative to your previous heros to retain similar damage and playstyle.

Pre-nerf Invoke heroes can spam both Invoke and Chain without concern of exhuastion, and they hit up to 3 targets, so comparing single-target DPS doesn't really justify your build as a valid alternative.

I have tried similar dual attunement builds on my heroes, and find them extremely cautious of exhuastion, they rarely used Chain Lightning even when there were plenty of foes bunching up in Vizunah Square. That said, the single target spikes with Lightning Orbs were effecient at bringing down backliners quickly, however, other spells felt lacking whenever Orb's on recharge.

It's just not worth it to bring an Air Ele at the moment, when other elements bring more to the table. For example, an Earth Ele deals respectable AOE damage with good utilities like knockdown/blind.

Coast · Jan 19, 2012, 09:47 AM // 09:47

@ swingline: wouldn't the +dmg ward be more benefitial then arcane echo for the player build?
Also, isn' stand your ground too energy intensive on the eles?
As I tried them and their energy seemed to go pretty low with that on their bar( I didn't micro it tho).
I guess that iv necro has weaken armor on his build?

Swingline · Jan 19, 2012, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

@ swingline: wouldn't the +dmg ward be more benefitial then arcane echo for the player build?
Also, isn' stand your ground too energy intensive on the eles?
As I tried them and their energy seemed to go pretty low with that on their bar( I didn't micro it tho).
I guess that iv necro has weaken armor on his build?

I try to stay away from EBSoH. I fear it getting nerfed like my old love for AS. Its far too powerful and I would hate to end up with a hero build that relies too much on it. If you want to use it, use it.

Weaken Armor is on the MM. I find the IV/resto necro doesnt use it as much because it needs to pop heals off in succession during hectic times.

You have 3 major e management skills, GG, GoLE, Fire Attunement and a minor e management skill, AoR. You should not have energy problems unless FA is getting stripped, unfortunately heroes don't cover more important enchantments and sometimes cast AoR before FA but that's why you have GoLE and GG to get you through. Check and see you have the right glyph. sometimes I make the mistake of grabbing the wrong glyph bc I don't pay attention. :\

Id like to add I run superior runes on all my heroes along with DS and PB on the MM for added dmg. DS is slow but it goes perfectly on the MM bar and its range is fantasitc but grrr its so slow.

AtomicMew · Jan 19, 2012, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

At the moment, I think Air is a pretty dead attribute line. Like Water, there isn't enough worth using on a hero (although AP Air is still the best offensive Elementalist build out there).

Have you tried AP earth? Obsidian flame is a faster and stronger spike than lightning orb, and cheaper SP, meaning you don't need to use GOLE as much. Earth also has a nice DTAoE in churning earth.

Lanier · Jan 19, 2012, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by IchibanK

@Lanier

Jeydra's post does a pretty good job of outlining the problems that arise from replacing shock arrow and using Lightning Hammer. These also apply when on a human bar - the difference is that a human player is better at controlling when Lightning Hammer is used - and you will need to control it.

This tends to negate it's fast recharge - you simply can't sustain it that way. Even with Lightning Orb you will still lose energy from casts that fail to land. The difference is that the loss from Lightning Orb or occasional enchantment strip is much more easily covered that from Lightning Hammer.

This may be down to player preference, and academic to anyone running AP but my preference is to leave Lighting Hammer off of any lightning build - you will have a more robust build - and higher damage in the long run.

I'm not talking about putting it on any human build, just a dual attunement one. Nor am I comparing AP to dual attunement (because honestly, I don't care which is superior - I don't like using an assassin elite on my ele for personal reasons).

The energy problem is really a no issue. You aren't going to run out of energy, or even really lose energy, if you land your lightning hammer. Landing a lightning hammer takes very minimal skill anyway, and even if you don't land it once or twice, you shouldn't have any energy problems. Trust me, I have used this build many times over the years (since it is a combo that has existed for practically forever). As a human, you aren't going to have energy problems running lightning hammer in a dual attunement air build.

Jeydra · Jan 20, 2012, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by IchibanK

@Jeydra

The hero build is an equivalent for your pre-nerf invoke hero build. It offers comparable single target dps with comparable energy management.

Yes, but no AoE damage. A large part of Invoke's allure is its AoE. Without the AoE damage, why use Air instead of Fire?

As for E/A Earth, I've not used it since the update, but it doesn't look attractive. The only relevant change was to Churning Earth, which is good of course but not enough to make a huge difference. Obsidian Flame doesn't do much damage, isn't AoE, stacks Exhaustion and is in general inferior to Chain Lightning, which I use more than Lightning Orb these days. I can't see a reason to use E/A Earth more; the original conclusions remain (you must hit >3 monsters per cast before using it).

Avatar Exico · Jan 20, 2012, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Having fun with E/A Earth or Fire since getting into mob and blow stuff with buffed PBAoE spells making it very OP than used to be.

LexTalionis · Jan 21, 2012, 11:46 AM // 11:46

I've been playing around with Hero bars and I just wanted to give a large kudos to the new ward against harm, which I find somewhat superior in my parties to Mist Form after a bunch of testing. Giving everyone balled up in it +54 armour against elemental damage is really REALLY helpful in many horrible areas, like Forgewight.

IchibanK · Jan 22, 2012, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Yes, but no AoE damage. A large part of Invoke's allure is its AoE. Without the AoE damage, why use Air instead of Fire?

Agree with this. Air is now weaker.

However, air still has the highest single target damage and best scaling spells. If your aim is to call and kill a target air can still do that. Is there any other element that can do it better?

Why use Fire instead of Air?

Is calling a target now obsolete - should we focus on elementalists providing only AoE damage? Can other classes do that better? Is a mix of lower damage but additional conditions (Earth/Water) now preferable? Or is it better to take another class to do this?

Air does what it did before - but less effectively. Are elementalists as a whole worse off after this update?

I will leave it to those with far more experience than myself to offer their input.

FoxBat · Jan 22, 2012, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by IchibanK

Is calling a target now obsolete - should we focus on elementalists providing only AoE damage? Can other classes do that better? Is a mix of lower damage but additional conditions (Earth/Water) now preferable? Or is it better to take another class to do this?

If you just want to "call" single targets, then discord is your best bet. The whole reason you took eles is for their AoE, yes. Invoke+chain would slam your called target and deliver some collateral damage as well, making the next targets go down that much faster. The lack of AoE is what makes Discord mediocre.

Jeydra · Jan 23, 2012, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by IchibanK

Agree with this. Air is now weaker.

However, air still has the highest single target damage and best scaling spells. If your aim is to call and kill a target air can still do that. Is there any other element that can do it better?

Why use Fire instead of Air?

Is calling a target now obsolete - should we focus on elementalists providing only AoE damage? Can other classes do that better? Is a mix of lower damage but additional conditions (Earth/Water) now preferable? Or is it better to take another class to do this?

Air does what it did before - but less effectively. Are elementalists as a whole worse off after this update?

I will leave it to those with far more experience than myself to offer their input.

While there may not be other attributes that can kill single targets as good as Air, the point is that you have multiple heroes and so they can all bring in the damage. Not all that damage has to come from a single hero. You only need to stack enough damage that you can kill a called target quickly. Skills which can do that include:

Spiritual Pain (79 armour-ignoring damage)
Shatter Enchantment (106 armour-ignoring damage)
Rodgort's Invocation (141 Fire damage with 3s burning)
Discord (126 armour-ignoring damage)

And so on.

Since builds using Invoke + Chain, Invoke only, and Chain Lightning only all don't work, I think Air is pretty dead as an attribute line. The update significantly increased the power of Fire Eles. Earth Eles probably also got better, but their uses are very niche so I've not used them yet. Water Eles are still weak. If there were a few good non-elite spells in Water Magic, Water wouldn't be that dead, but as it is it has no future.

So far for me the update nuked Air Eles and lifted up Fire Eles as the replacement, while promoting non-Ele options where Fire damage isn't viable. Fire Eles are as good as (and possibly better) than pre-nerf Air Eles. The difference is close enough that I don't see much of a difference. When Fire isn't viable though I haven't found anything that's as good as pre-nerf Air Eles. That's my opinion.

Swingline · Jan 23, 2012, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

So far for me the update nuked Air Eles and lifted up Fire Eles as the replacement, while promoting non-Ele options where Fire damage isn't viable. Fire Eles are as good as (and possibly better) than pre-nerf Air Eles. The difference is close enough that I don't see much of a difference. When Fire isn't viable though I haven't found anything that's as good as pre-nerf Air Eles. That's my opinion.

Fire can do wonders in any part of the game, just bring Winter and no burning against destroyers. If you don't want to bring Winter then Stone Striker can still boost damage against fire resistant mobs.

Earth is still mediocre with UG+CE being the best setup. Water got a little bit better but not enough to make a difference.

The Earth and Water lines are kind of blurred with Earth being a better form of damage with KDs/minimal snares and Water having more snares with moderate damage.

One skill that doesnt make sense in PvE is Sandstorm. Its such a cool skill but mobs will spend a maximum of 3 seconds in its 10 second AoE before running out and if you want to snare or KD them then its damage is cut in half still. You may as well bring UG. They should just take away the conditional damage and up the base damage.

The main problem with Earth and Water vs. Fire is Fire does way more damage and shit needs to die in HM. If Earth and Water got some extra or new abilities other than a damage increase they could see play but chances are they never will simply because they lack significant high damage AoE spells such as Searing Flames, Savannah Heat, Double Dragon, Searing Heat, Liquid Flame, Meteor shower and Rodgort's Invocation just to name a few.

AndrewSX · Jan 23, 2012, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

The main problem with Earth and Water vs. Fire is Fire does way more damage and shit needs to die in HM.

Not exactely. I mean, yes, shit needs to die (fast) in HM, but Earth and Water don't do it well because of lack of aivable regualr skills to build up the dmg. As you said, even taking away the elite, a fire nuking build can be composed with stuff like Rogdort, Liquid Flame, Meteor, Fireball. Those alone can blow shit, allowing you even to take a elite not fully dmgfocused (like Mind Blast).

In Earth and Water line (NOW) the situation is the opposite: there are very interesting elites (Shatterstone, Water trident, just naming 2) thanks to lates update, but the pool of regular spells to fill the dmg meter is extremely poor.

Air has alwasy been the spikish line, or the one you'd play when there aren't tons of mobs clumped, and the best one in old HM due to armor penetration. Now we had the actual nerf of Invoke, but compensated by the new set of interesting elites like Gust, Thunderclap, Bsurge. None of those do the same thing Invoke did (being the spam and strong 3 target aoe dmg) but allows air line to work quite well in lots of situations (a BSurge is an anti-meele as good as a Inept, plus gust/RtL for KD or blind near a meele ally...).

Final points: fire is back to best nuke line, followed by air for smaller mobs and utility/versatility. Earth/Water will have to wait for a later update, when most of regualr skills will be changed in order to fit with the new elites.

Jeydra · Jan 31, 2012, 12:58 PM // 12:58

I just noticed Shatterstone doesn't deal AoE damage on the first tick, only after three seconds - and not even if the target dies during that period. That kinda makes it very unappealing compared to stuff like Icy Veins.

It seems Water Magic is even deader than I originally thought it was: not only are there few useful non-elites, there are no good elites either. Icy Shackles is dumb, Mind Freeze isn't AoE, MoI does all of 74 damage losing heavily to Rodgort's Invocation and even Fireball, Mist Form is worthless, Shatterstone doesn't deal reliable AoE damage, Ward Against Harm is worthless, and finally Water Trident again loses heavily to Rodgort's Invocation / Fireball.

Looks like the search for an effective Invoke replacement when Fire isn't viable must continue somewhere else ...

bleh · Jan 31, 2012, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Looks like the search for an effective Invoke replacement when Fire isn't viable must continue somewhere else ...

Have to agree, I tried out the new Elites and most are not great for heros, i got fed up.
Ive been running my heros around with Master of Magic, Deep freeze, searing heat, wards + fragility. Probably will be swapped soon for a better hero

!
It works well with 2 dervishes (1 shockwave/aftershock the other using gust/whirlwind) they controll mobs really well.

Gust is my exception it is AWESOME! (even at 5 air on Dervish) just not really put too good use by a non-close quarters Hero. I don't think ill be running close quarters Eles anytime soon.... unless i went something like 3 Roj, 3 Eles, 1 comandagon ,ST. Even then >_> .....

kgptzac · Feb 03, 2012, 10:42 AM // 10:42

I don't think running ele heroes is a good way to assess the newly updated skills to their fullest extend. Master of Magic leads to tricky builds... I don't think heroes are going to manage it well.

Another note on Water magic. Not sure if it needs to be compared with Fire on terms of damage output. It offers a few good snares, and provides solution when killing fire resistant foes.

Lastly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Air attunement
Elemental Attunement
Lightning Orb
Lightning Hammer
Chain Lightning
Enervating Charge
Optional (I always bring elemental lord)
Optional (usually intensity to add some AoE damage to hammer/orb)

Remember, the dual attunements return close to the full energy cost of even the high-energy spells like lightning hammer. There is no reason to use shock arrow.

I could swear I replied to this before but it appears I didn't :S Anyway I've been running this bar in 4/6-man areas where not a lot of monsters ball up. It's extremely easy to use--even easier to use compare to the EA Fire build... and definitely felt better than the old Invoke bar before the update.