Curse

Frozen Ele · Dec 30, 2010, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Sorry for the wall of text

just trying to fully explain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Give me some reasons why this build would be superior to this one:

12 + 1 + 3 = 16 Fire Magic
12 + 1 = 13 Energy Storage
3 Water Magic

Snow Storm
Tenai's Heat
Searing Heat
Ether Prodigy [E]
Deep Freeze
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Ebon Battle Standard of Honor
"By Ural's Hammer!"

This build is very ad hoc (I just made it up) so it might have a lot of problems, but give me some reasons why the idea isn't worth pursuing. The idea is that spec'ing into Water Magic with multiple snares is inferior to spec'ing into Fire Magic [or some other damage line] and bringing Deep Freeze. Before you mention "100% efficiency of snares", I'll have to ask you for more thorough reasons why you need more than 10s of snares: why, if all the monsters are caught in AoE, aren't they all dead before the 10s are up?

PS: If non-AoE damage and "other support" are all that important to you, drop EBSoH and BUH for YMLAD! and 9-spec Aegis, or screw Fire Magic and go Earth with Churning Earth and Eruption.

First and foremost, you can only compare builds that have the same purposes. You wouldn’t be comparing the best build for healing to a Conjure + wanding build to see who kills monsters better. You need to use the test of permutation – can you bring both? If you can bring both without being overly redundant, than it’s inappropriate to compare the builds. In the example I gave, you can easily bring both without being redundant; one build is heal the other is damage.

Now, let’s look at the two builds. Fundamentally, they’re achieving different purposes. My build is for “increasing AoE efficiency with the secondary purposes of providing some AoE and non-AoE damage and other support.” Yours is damage oriented (dual heat + Snow Storm), with minimal increase to AoE efficiency. Our builds do different things and by the test of permutation, we can bring both without being overly redundant (only point of overlap is Deep Freeze), so it’s inappropriate to “give me some reasons why this build would be superior to this one.”

Even though it might be inappropriate to compare builds, it can still be done on a given purpose (i.e. killing monsters) (but it shouldn’t be done – look to the example above). This means that even though our builds have nothing to do with each other (me maximizing AoE with support, you damage) we can still compare, so let’s do. Since you proposed your build as a counter to my build, we have to evaluate the builds on the purposes I provided, so we’re looking for a build that best “increase[es] AoE efficiency with the secondary purposes of providing some AoE and non-AoE damage and other support.”

First purpose – increasing AoE efficiency, which build does it better? Because I provide two snares, I will be able to increase AoE efficiency more than you because of increasing snare efficiency and being able to snare multiple clusters of foes at once. With the latter, foes, both caster and melee, won’t perfectly ball into one ball when you agro, so you’ll cause at least two groups of foes: the caster bundle and the melee bundle. With only one snare you can only snare one group, only increasing AoE efficiency against one cluster (which is your build), but two snares can efficiency for both (my build), so I increase AoE efficiency more.

Furthermore, you need more than just Deep Freeze because you can’t guarantee that you’ll kill all of the foes in 10s. The purpose of AoE is to hit as many foes as possible. These foes aren’t going to be stacked on top of each other in normal agro so when you use AoE, some foes will be on the edge of it, others in the center. The ones on the edge can more quickly escape AoE (even under a snare) so they could more easily survive. Plus, depending on the healing power of the other team, one or all of the foes in AoE could survive.

Additionally on your build, you need more than just Deep Freeze for the AoE you’re bringing. With the cast times and after-cast delay, you can’t use Deep Freeze as a post-AoE measure (can’t wait for all AoE to cast and then use Deep Freeze) because the foes will start scattering by the first AoE. You’ll only have increased efficiency with the last AoE you cast – at best. Therefore, you have to use Deep Freeze as a preemptive-AoE measure. With durations of the AoE you’re using plus the cast times and after-cast delays, Deep Freeze will end before you’re AoE does (4s early), so to maximize AoE efficiency, you’re going to need a second AoE snare.

Second purpose – some AoE and non-AoE damage. Here, the purpose is only “some” damage, not maximizing damage, so any extra damage you’re build provides over mine is superfluous. We both fulfill the purpose equally, so no build is better than the other here (although technically the one I presented is better because it provides both AoE and non-AoE damage, whereas yours is only AoE, unless you include “YMLaD!” in yours, by which it’s still a wash).

Third purpose – other support (support beyond increasing AoE efficiency). I have better support in my build: interrupts + missing + kd + damage sponge (EVAS). You only provide increased damage to armor-sensitive sources standing in the ward (EBSH). Furthermore, because I have increased snaring and snare efficiency, I better access the other support from snaring (including: controlling agro, preventing kiting/dodging, preventing foes from chasing healers, etc.) so here I also have more support. If you add Aegis and “YMLaD!” to your build, then the kd and “missing” support is a wash, but I still have the interrupts, damage sponge, and other support from snaring over your build. If you ditch Fire and go with Earth, Eruption > Blurred Vision, but Churning Earth and Deep Freeze are mutually exclusive (snare from Deep Freeze prevents kd from Churning Earth) and Deep Freeze > Churning Earth, so Churning Earth is pointless for support here. In terms of net support, your build has (assuming you still have Aegis and “YMLaD!”) 90% miss rate vs the interrupts, damage sponge, and other support from snaring of my build. Without Aegis and “YMLaD!” it’s: 90% miss and increased armor-sensitive damage in the ward vs. 50% miss, kd, interrupts, damage sponge, and other support from snaring. Any way you slice it, the build I presented is going to have more support.

Conclusion: It’s inappropriate to compare the builds because they achieve different purposes, but even if you do compare, the build I presented is better at the purposes at hand (you presented your build as a counter to achieving the purposes I presented with my build, so we must evaluate both builds under the purposes I presented).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

In addition to comparing Churning Earth and Deep Freeze, consider Glyph Sac + Meteor Shower.

In addition to what LifeInfusion said:

Ignoring Meteor Shower’s exhaustion and the massive recharge, the problem with Meteor Shower is that after you cast it, it takes 3s before the first kd. If you use it post-AoE, then the foes will already be out before Meteor Shower does any good (0.75s after-cast from AoE + 1.75 for Glyph + 3s waiting for first kd = 5.5s when the foes would be out by around 4s). Using it as a preemptive measure will cause foes to scatter, so you won’t get as much of an efficiency increase compared to Deep Freeze. Casting AoE right after Meteor Shower will only cause 1kd, so you’re only increasing AoE by 1s, whereas Deep Freeze increases it by 2s. Finally, if you’re not using it with Deep Freeze/Ice Spikes, you’re going to have the limits I listed above.

So Deep Freeze > Glyph of Sacrifice + Meteor Shower

syphonus · Dec 30, 2010, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozen Ele

holy shit wall of text

tl;dr the whole thing, but it sounds like you're trying to defend why you need more snares in PvE. I think you'd be better off giving a specific example of where you'd need them, considering "increasing AoE efficiency" is something other classes do anyways, in addition to actually being useful. You're trying to fill a niche that isn't there.

Jeydra · Dec 31, 2010, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Now, let’s look at the two builds. Fundamentally, they’re achieving different purposes. My build is for “increasing AoE efficiency with the secondary purposes of providing some AoE and non-AoE damage and other support.” Yours is damage oriented (dual heat + Snow Storm), with minimal increase to AoE efficiency. Our builds do different things and by the test of permutation, we can bring both without being overly redundant (only point of overlap is Deep Freeze), so it’s inappropriate to “give me some reasons why this build would be superior to this one.”

Why isn't it increasing AoE efficiency? There is 1) Deep Freeze, which presumably provides snares so monsters stay in DoTAoE and 2) EBSoH, which increases AoE damage.

You write that your build will be able to snare multiple clusters, but all mobs come in one cluster. So unless you're aggro'ing two mobs at once, there are no multiple clusters. What's more, if they do come in multiple clusters then DoTAoE isn't a good way to kill them.

You should be able to kill all the monsters in 10s, because (presumably) you have other teammates backing you up with their own DoTAoE's. You are "increasing AoE efficiency" on a bar without much AoE, so it's only fair to assume you have teammates with their own DoTAoE. Bringing EBSoH increases their damage output too. What's more, if the mob doesn't die in 10s, one of your teammates can cast their own Deep Freeze and cover the next 10s until the mob dies.

Clearly the total damage output of the team build matters. So although the fact that my build does more damage than your build does not matter, it does matter that my team does more damage than your team - and I can't see any reason why that wouldn't be true, or why that wouldn't matter.

You don't have better support in your build. Maelstrom interrupts spellcasting, but I provide added damage to all other armour-sensitive sources in the team, which should be most of them since you are "increasing AoE efficiency". I have enough snares to fill all the things you mentioned (YMLAD stops monsters chasing healers, although I have no idea why monsters are chasing healers when you're supposed to be controlling aggro ...). You don't have 90% miss rate because you don't have blind, and since for some reason you didn't aggro properly (that's why you need more than one snare) you couldn't have Blurred the entire mob either, and Aegis provides more support than Blurred.

However you look at it, I have more support in the build than you do - and I have more damage in the build, too.

Quote:

Ignoring Meteor Shower’s exhaustion and the massive recharge, the problem with Meteor Shower is that after you cast it, it takes 3s before the first kd. If you use it post-AoE, then the foes will already be out before Meteor Shower does any good (0.75s after-cast from AoE + 1.75 for Glyph + 3s waiting for first kd = 5.5s when the foes would be out by around 4s). Using it as a preemptive measure will cause foes to scatter, so you won’t get as much of an efficiency increase compared to Deep Freeze. Casting AoE right after Meteor Shower will only cause 1kd, so you’re only increasing AoE by 1s, whereas Deep Freeze increases it by 2s. Finally, if you’re not using it with Deep Freeze/Ice Spikes, you’re going to have the limits I listed above.

So Deep Freeze > Glyph of Sacrifice + Meteor Shower

A mob caught in Glyph Sac'ed Meteor Shower is essentially dead before 10s. That's speaking from personal experience. The best part is since it takes 3s before the first KD, they don't kite out of Meteor Shower for 3s, by which time you and the rest of the team have plenty of time to throw out other DoTAoE. Meteor Shower is superb at keeping monsters in AoE and dealing big damage. It only fails when the mob is badly aggro'ed. Have you even used Glyph Sac + Meteor Shower?

Frozen Ele · Dec 31, 2010, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Why isn't it increasing AoE efficiency? There is 1) Deep Freeze, which presumably provides snares so monsters stay in DoTAoE and 2) EBSoH, which increases AoE damage.

You may try to increase the AoE efficiency, but that’s certainly not the focus of your build – you’re trying to maximize your damage. Here, I’m the only one who's trying to maximize AoE efficiency. Again, even if you say “they do the same things,” I increase AoE efficiency more than you do, so my build is superior. If I have to consider the variations of your build, then you have to consider variations of mine, which include EBSH; I still have net advantage over yours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You write that your build will be able to snare multiple clusters, but all mobs come in one cluster. So unless you're aggro'ing two mobs at once, there are no multiple clusters. What's more, if they do come in multiple clusters then DoTAoE isn't a good way to kill them.

You’re absolutely right, mobs do come in one cluster and that’s when you snare them, but when you snare and cause agro, the mob is going to split into two clusters – the casters will stay put and the melee will move forward. From here, you can use AoE on both groups, but since the melee is on the move, it would not be optimal to use it on them until they’ve at least started to settle (if they’re already moving they’ll just keep moving through AoE). So, use AoE on the casters, watch them die, and then turn to the melee. Since you like to assume the foes will die in 10s, then the casters will die when the snare ends on the melee, requiring you to use the second snare on them. If the casters don’t die in 10s, then you have your second snare for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You should be able to kill all the monsters in 10s, because (presumably) you have other teammates backing you up with their own DoTAoE's. You are "increasing AoE efficiency" on a bar without much AoE, so it's only fair to assume you have teammates with their own DoTAoE. Bringing EBSoH increases their damage output too. What's more, if the mob doesn't die in 10s, one of your teammates can cast their own Deep Freeze and cover the next 10s until the mob dies.

You can’t assume what you’re team brings. All of the builds you provided do not include recommended skills for others to bring, plus, we’re not discussing team set-ups here. If someone wants to bring a build that increases AoE efficiency but no AoE, that’s their choice – you see people bringing Searing Flames against Destroyers. This is a guide to playing Elementalist and has sample builds for Elementatlists, not hero or team set-ups.

Moreover, even if you do assume AoE on allies, then you have to consider how they’re going to cast. Not all AoE of a team can be dumped at the same time. Your build is the perfect example. You spend so long casting that the foes are long gone from AoE unless you use 2 snares. If you can’t get it all out at once, then the foes are going to be on the move after 3s regardless. If there’s a foe(s) on the edge of AoE, then a snare doesn’t hold the foe(s) in for the extra 2s; if there’s one AoE cast and then a second later another AoE and anther one another second later (or all AoE cast at once), the foe(s) will be able to escape quickly enough to survive - it often comes down to those last 2s. Additionally, you can’t assume that all the foes will be within AoE range of one another – the casters could be grouped in “nearby” range when you’re using “adjacent” range AoE, so you won’t be able to kill them all without multiple snares.

Even if you kill all the foes in 10s, you still have to worry about the fact that there’s the other cluster to deal with. You can’t assume team set-up, but if you’re using heroes and not microing, or having a party but sub-superior coordination, if they have AoE to cast on this second cluster, they’re going to cast it whether or not you’re ready. The only way to ensure you’re ready is by bringing the second snare. You still can’t assume team set-up, but the same reasoning applies to having another member bring Deep Freeze – heroes will cast it for the damage and other players will often overlap the snares causing it to be a waste. Even if you assume perfect microing and communication, you still have the issue of where to put the skill. Where on spiritway are you going to dump a 25e skill that needs to be cast regularly? Trust me, I’ve had heroes and non-hero players snare, and even with good communication, its best just to have two snares on your bar.

Even if you don’t use the second snare all the time, I still increase AoE efficiency more than you do because there’ll be times (maybe as little as once in a VQ/mission/etc.) when you'll need to use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Clearly the total damage output of the team build matters. So although the fact that my build does more damage than your build does not matter, it does matter that my team does more damage than your team - and I can't see any reason why that wouldn't be true, or why that wouldn't matter.

You can’t assume team set-up, so it’s undetermined who’d have superior damage. This comment only helps to prove that you’re damage focused, and not focused on increasing AoE efficiency (reinforcing that the builds can’t be compared).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You don't have better support in your build. Maelstrom interrupts spellcasting, but I provide added damage to all other armour-sensitive sources in the team, which should be most of them since you are "increasing AoE efficiency". I have enough snares to fill all the things you mentioned (YMLAD stops monsters chasing healers, although I have no idea why monsters are chasing healers when you're supposed to be controlling aggro ...). You don't have 90% miss rate because you don't have blind, and since for some reason you didn't aggro properly (that's why you need more than one snare) you couldn't have Blurred the entire mob either, and Aegis provides more support than Blurred.

However you look at it, I have more support in the build than you do - and I have more damage in the build, too.

You completely ignore the potency of Maelstrom (complete caster shutdown for 10s) and the use of EVAS. Again, you also have to consider my build’s variants if I’m to consider yours, so EBSH is a wash. You don’t have enough snares to keep the foes down anywhere close to 100% of the time so you’re not going to provide better support than I do here either.

Why can’t I Blurred Vision the entire mob? I said that foes will come together as a single group which is when you should snare them, but after that’s when the split. Go ahead and use Blurred Vision when they’re closely grouped. But even if you don’t, do you need to Blurred Vision the entire mob? Spellcasters are going to cast spells (esp. in the first 10s of battle when nothing is recharging) so you really only need to concern yourself with using the hex on the melee. You can easily recipricate all the arguments for/against Blurred Vision to the use of Eruptin, since Eruption is AoE, so it’s a wash. The only thing that matters is 50% vs. 90% (and yes 90% is better). Aegis provides a bit better support (when it’s up) but only barely – the only advantage to Aegis is that it can help block wanding from casters. But Aegis has a much larger recharge than Blurred Vision, so you’re only able to keep it up for less than 1/3 of the time, whereas Blurred Vision is up for over ¾ of the time, so Blurred Vision is better overall. Plus, since you’re so keen on deciding what other party members bring, I’ll say that my party already has Aegis and Eruption so I still have net support with Blurred (I can blind the melee, use Blurred on the casters, and Aegis all around, which proves to be the best option considered so far).

Looking skill-by-skill:

“YMLaD!” is a wash, we both have it
EBSH is a wash, we both have it
Eruption vs. Blurred, Eruption better (but hey, by your arguing I have both)
Aegis vs. Blurred, Aegis better when up, Blurred better overall (but hey, by your arguing, I have both)
You snares vs. my snares, my snaring is better (greater efficiency, two snares, refer to all of those arguments).
Maelstrom and EVAS are unique to my build, giving me even more support.

When you break it down like that, the only support you might have over mine (when we don’t assume our team set-ups, as should be the case) is that you provide 90% missing over my 50% missing, but the fact that I have more support from better snaring, caster shutdown (Maelstrom), and a damage sponge (EVAS) means I have more support.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

YMLAD stops monsters chasing healers, although I have no idea why monsters are chasing healers when you're supposed to be controlling aggro ...).

So you’d agree that snaring fills the niche of controlling argo?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

A mob caught in Glyph Sac'ed Meteor Shower is essentially dead before 10s. That's speaking from personal experience. The best part is since it takes 3s before the first KD, they don't kite out of Meteor Shower for 3s, by which time you and the rest of the team have plenty of time to throw out other DoTAoE. Meteor Shower is superb at keeping monsters in AoE and dealing big damage. It only fails when the mob is badly aggro'ed. Have you even used Glyph Sac + Meteor Shower?

Essentially dead isn’t the same as actually dead – this only proves that you’d need a supplement snare. Bringing Deep Freeze + Meteor Shower + Glyph of Sac is a waste, Deep Freeze + Ice Spikes is better (fewer skills, no awful recharge, etc.)

Even if you threw on all of the AoE in the world during those three seconds before the first kd, foes are only going to be trapped in it for one extra second, not two seconds like with Deep Freeze.

Dealing big damage? Read LifeInusion’s post.

I’ve used Glyph of Sac + Meteor Shower – how do you think I know that foes are only trapped for an extra second? Instead, the important question is: have you ever used snaring?

@ syphonus, I'm not ignoring you; I'll get to your post later today.

Jeydra · Jan 01, 2011, 01:40 AM // 01:40

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You may try to increase the AoE efficiency, but that’s certainly not the focus of your build – you’re trying to maximize your damage. Here, I’m the only one who's trying to maximize AoE efficiency. Again, even if you say “they do the same things,” I increase AoE efficiency more than you do, so my build is superior. If I have to consider the variations of your build, then you have to consider variations of mine, which include EBSH; I still have net advantage over yours.

No you do not. My build provides more AoE efficiency than yours, because in addition to snares and EBSoH I have my own AoE skills (and more of them).

Quote:

You’re absolutely right, mobs do come in one cluster and that’s when you snare them, but when you snare and cause agro, the mob is going to split into two clusters – the casters will stay put and the melee will move forward. From here, you can use AoE on both groups, but since the melee is on the move, it would not be optimal to use it on them until they’ve at least started to settle (if they’re already moving they’ll just keep moving through AoE). So, use AoE on the casters, watch them die, and then turn to the melee. Since you like to assume the foes will die in 10s, then the casters will die when the snare ends on the melee, requiring you to use the second snare on them. If the casters don’t die in 10s, then you have your second snare for them.

Then you are using your snares wrong. The aim is to use snares -> AoE after aggro settles, not before. And yes, mobs die before 10s when you use it right. Your case that snares are useful when you play badly is about as valid as arguing that Maelstrom sucks because it doesn't interrupt melee. I don't want to get into that.

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You can’t assume what you’re team brings. All of the builds you provided do not include recommended skills for others to bring, plus, we’re not discussing team set-ups here. If someone wants to bring a build that increases AoE efficiency but no AoE, that’s their choice – you see people bringing Searing Flames against Destroyers. This is a guide to playing Elementalist and has sample builds for Elementatlists, not hero or team set-ups.

Moreover, even if you do assume AoE on allies, then you have to consider how they’re going to cast. Not all AoE of a team can be dumped at the same time. Your build is the perfect example. You spend so long casting that the foes are long gone from AoE unless you use 2 snares. If you can’t get it all out at once, then the foes are going to be on the move after 3s regardless. If there’s a foe(s) on the edge of AoE, then a snare doesn’t hold the foe(s) in for the extra 2s; if there’s one AoE cast and then a second later another AoE and anther one another second later (or all AoE cast at once), the foe(s) will be able to escape quickly enough to survive - it often comes down to those last 2s. Additionally, you can’t assume that all the foes will be within AoE range of one another – the casters could be grouped in “nearby” range when you’re using “adjacent” range AoE, so you won’t be able to kill them all without multiple snares.

Even if you kill all the foes in 10s, you still have to worry about the fact that there’s the other cluster to deal with. You can’t assume team set-up, but if you’re using heroes and not microing, or having a party but sub-superior coordination, if they have AoE to cast on this second cluster, they’re going to cast it whether or not you’re ready. The only way to ensure you’re ready is by bringing the second snare. You still can’t assume team set-up, but the same reasoning applies to having another member bring Deep Freeze – heroes will cast it for the damage and other players will often overlap the snares causing it to be a waste. Even if you assume perfect microing and communication, you still have the issue of where to put the skill. Where on spiritway are you going to dump a 25e skill that needs to be cast regularly? Trust me, I’ve had heroes and non-hero players snare, and even with good communication, its best just to have two snares on your bar.

Even if you don’t use the second snare all the time, I still increase AoE efficiency more than you do because there’ll be times (maybe as little as once in a VQ/mission/etc.) when you'll need to use it.

If you can't assume what your team brings, then I'll assume that your team has no AoE, so your build is achieving nothing.

The casters will not be in nearby range vs. adjacent range nukes because you are (should be) aggro'ing properly. I don't spend so long casting that the foes are gone before I finish casting, or if they do then it doesn't matter how many snares I have on the bar. Deep Freeze lasts 10s. Tenai's Heat + Snow Storm + Searing Heat takes 2.75 + 1.75 + 2.75s < 10s. If I can't finish casting all my AoE nukes for some reason, neither can I even if I had Ice Spikes on the bar.

Once again there is no second cluster because I aggro properly.

If there are times I need the second snare, I'll have an ally cast Deep Freeze.

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You can’t assume team set-up, so it’s undetermined who’d have superior damage. This comment only helps to prove that you’re damage focused, and not focused on increasing AoE efficiency (reinforcing that the builds can’t be compared).

If you can't assume team set-up, then like I said I'm assuming you don't have AoE spells in your teambuild, which means you are increasing nothing. That makes your bar comparable to one with Stolen Speed but no spells on the rest of the team.

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You completely ignore the potency of Maelstrom (complete caster shutdown for 10s) and the use of EVAS. Again, you also have to consider my build’s variants if I’m to consider yours, so EBSH is a wash. You don’t have enough snares to keep the foes down anywhere close to 100% of the time so you’re not going to provide better support than I do here either.

Why can’t I Blurred Vision the entire mob? I said that foes will come together as a single group which is when you should snare them, but after that’s when the split. Go ahead and use Blurred Vision when they’re closely grouped. But even if you don’t, do you need to Blurred Vision the entire mob? Spellcasters are going to cast spells (esp. in the first 10s of battle when nothing is recharging) so you really only need to concern yourself with using the hex on the melee. You can easily recipricate all the arguments for/against Blurred Vision to the use of Eruptin, since Eruption is AoE, so it’s a wash. The only thing that matters is 50% vs. 90% (and yes 90% is better). Aegis provides a bit better support (when it’s up) but only barely – the only advantage to Aegis is that it can help block wanding from casters. But Aegis has a much larger recharge than Blurred Vision, so you’re only able to keep it up for less than 1/3 of the time, whereas Blurred Vision is up for over ¾ of the time, so Blurred Vision is better overall. Plus, since you’re so keen on deciding what other party members bring, I’ll say that my party already has Aegis and Eruption so I still have net support with Blurred (I can blind the melee, use Blurred on the casters, and Aegis all around, which proves to be the best option considered so far).

Maelstrom doesn't shut mobs down for 10s. Not all spells cast in >1s. Blurred Vision cannot be cast on the entire mob ... unless you aggro properly, when there will not be two clusters and all monsters will die in 10s. Pick one. Either you aggro'ed properly and can Blurred the entire mob, or you didn't aggro properly and cannot. You cannot do both.

Blurred Vision isn't better than Aegis. Mobs will be mostly dead before Aegis expires. If you need to cast Blurred Vision on a target twice, you are killing slower than the teambuilds I'm used to.

If your party already has Aegis and Eruption then there is simply no need for Blurred Vision. What are you trying to do with Blurred Vision, reduce the enemy hit chance from 5% to 2.5%?

No you do not have more support. You don't have EBSoH. If you do have EBSoH then you don't have Blurred Vision. If you don't have Blurred Vision then you are weaker than me with Aegis. You have two snares that you will never use / need, I have two snares on my teambuild, so you have no advantage. If you care so much about EVAS and YMLAD, like I said I'll drop some of the AoE skills (I have 3, you have 1) for both of them. Of course that's a bad idea (heck running such a character is a bad idea), but who cares.

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So you’d agree that snaring fills the niche of controlling argo?

I'll agree that snaring fills the niche of controlling aggro if you agree that Conjure Frost + "Go For The Eyes!" + Anthem of Envy + "Find Their Weaknesses!" + "By Ural's Hammer!" + EBSoH fills the niche of dealing most damage possible with wands.

I'm completely capable of controlling aggro by aggroing properly, while you have to dedicate an entire character to serving the same dubious task ...

Quote:

Essentially dead isn’t the same as actually dead – this only proves that you’d need a supplement snare. Bringing Deep Freeze + Meteor Shower + Glyph of Sac is a waste, Deep Freeze + Ice Spikes is better (fewer skills, no awful recharge, etc.)

Even if you threw on all of the AoE in the world during those three seconds before the first kd, foes are only going to be trapped in it for one extra second, not two seconds like with Deep Freeze.

Dealing big damage? Read LifeInusion’s post.

I’ve used Glyph of Sac + Meteor Shower – how do you think I know that foes are only trapped for an extra second? Instead, the important question is: have you ever used snaring?

You think all the foes are trapped only for an extra second because you performed the calculation that 3 x 3 = 9 < 10, not because you tried it. I maintain my position. You did not try Glyph Sac Meteor Shower, because if you did you would know that Glyph Sac Meteor Shower does not have awful recharge. Hint: it's because of the second best elite available to Elementalists.

If you have tried Glyph Sac Meteor Shower you would know that the aim is not to snare the targets for as long as possible, but to kill them all before the "snare" (that is, Meteor Shower) expires. In other words, there is no difference between snaring a target for 100s and 10000s because they should be dead before either snare expires.

Yes Glyph Sac Meteor Shower does big damage. LifeInfusion is wrong. If you insist on using DoTAoE, learn to support it. Run Weaken Armour / BUH / EBSoH and tell me 119 damage gets reduced to 30-50. Does not happen, sorry.

I think you're so bound to Water Magic that you have not really explored the other options available to Elementalists. The argument from ignorance is not a good one. Go out there and try the other elements before posting.

LifeInfusion · Jan 01, 2011, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Meteor Shower knocks down every 3 seconds, the first hit being 3 seconds after cast. So even if you glyph of sac, I don't see how that will help. You could even echo, arcane echo, AP, AoS, Earthbind, what have you. It doesn't change the fact that the first hit is 3 seconds later and only adjacent range...

Assuming you run Meteor Shower on AP or Arcane Echo/Echo bar (Glyph of sacrifice + Glyph of Renewal don't stack). You still don't get access to weaken armor, so basically you need to slot it somewhere on a hero or something. BUH/Standard of honor don't make the damage "BIG" like you claim... most places you see 70% damage before weaken armor, against casters and 30-50% vs targets with armor. Say you do 30% damage, *1.25 (BUH) = 37.5%. I don't run fire anymore, but with the Earth AoEs, 42 gets reduced to 13-16 sometimes so it's not something I just theorycrafted. EBSoH is at most +15 vs non-charr...it works best with packet damage (100B, Barbs, SS, MoP, etc).

To me, big damage is anything over 80 on everything, that I can do consistently. YMLAD/FH are 80. Mesmers' Overload is 75 damage @15, after all and Clumsiness is even 87-97.

Really big damage for an ele without any buffs like BuH is 140-150ish (Lightning orb on a 60 armor caster), even though for other classes you can get 200-300.

You can discuss snares and water magic, but I'd say Deep Freeze is better than Meteor Shower for keeping things in AoE, without the cost of exhaustion.

EDIT: numbers for fire magic
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...5&postcount=31

Jeydra · Jan 01, 2011, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Part of the reason why Glyph Sac Meteor Shower is so effective is because the first hit comes 3s after being cast - which is plenty of time to cast other AoE spells. Since the foes are knocked, they will not be able to run from these other AoE spells.

No, you don't get access to Weaken Armour, but you should have it elsewhere in your teambuild. You may not deal as much as 100b Warriors, but we're considering DoTAoE in this entire discussion (which is why Water Magic is even being discussed in the first place).

I believe Meteor Shower usually does >80 damage per tick, when appropriately supported.

PS: EBSoH doesn't work on armour-ignoring damage.

Wenspire · Jan 01, 2011, 03:38 AM // 03:38

If agro has settled then the 3 seconds to KD with Meteor Shower is fine since agro doesn't break that fast. However, if agro has not settled then of course your target will be able to run out of the the MS AoE without being KD'ed.

As mentioned above, the 3 seconds until KD is useful for being able to drop extra DoT skills before the KD occurs. With KD lasting 2 seconds, the foes normally don't get a chance to run out and take all three falls (as well as the most/full of the damage from other DoT skills cast after). This is at least from what I normally see. But the most important aspect is whether or not agro has settled on the target or not before the MS is dropped.

...just my $0.02...

LifeInfusion · Jan 01, 2011, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Snow Storm/Teinai's Heat/Searing Heat: Let's say you do 42 damage +15 EBSOH, +25% from BUH... 71.25 per tick, 356.25 per AoE (maximum)+burning.

Weaken armor doesn't help much, since 42 is max without Glyph of elemental power and elemental lord. You'll get 50 listed damage with all that stuff and after EBSOH and BUH you have 406.25 total per AoE (maximum)+burning. Plus, that's every 15 seconds if you have 2 heats.

Whether this is acceptable is up for debate when you can get scythe crits of 200-300 without 3 PvE skills, a glyph, an attunement, and a terrible attribute line (which leaves 3 slots, one of which is the AoE that has 0 utility). Once you slap deep freeze/Meteor shower in there, you basically have 2 heats or savannah's heat + teinai's heat + meteor shower/deep freeze.

I usually run bars with utility, so I would never run that.

Savannah's heat does 315 @16, [email protected], [email protected] Tack on +15 x5 = 75 damage from EBSOH, multiply by 1.25 from BUH...[email protected], [email protected], [email protected] (maximums before cons).

Also if you're running ether prodigy as your elite, then you'll only be using Snow storm mostly, since both heats have 30 recharge. That bar is really bad because the heats don't really do much.

Jeydra · Jan 01, 2011, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Part of the reason why Glyph Sac Meteor Shower is so effective is because the first hit comes 3s after being cast - which is plenty of time to cast other AoE spells. Since the foes are knocked, they will not be able to run from these other AoE spells.

No, you don't get access to Weaken Armour, but you should have it elsewhere in your teambuild. You may not deal as much as 100b Warriors, but we're considering DoTAoE in this entire discussion (which is why Water Magic is even being discussed in the first place).

I believe Meteor Shower usually does >80 damage per tick, when appropriately supported.

PS: EBSoH doesn't work on armour-ignoring damage.

Ugh ... and I'm not saying that Elementalists deal more damage than Scythe crits.

Wenspire got my meaning.

Life Bringing · Jan 01, 2011, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Im going to say leave the DoTAoE to the eles, and leave the snares to the erfshakur and the minion bodyblock. I really dont understand why Frozen is arguing for the validity of water magic. Water magic as a whole is terrible in pve. This is a fact. It's only minor point of interest is Deep Freeze, which is far more efficient with using the spec in a different attribute than speccing into water magic for damage on it.

@LifeInfusion, yes, we all realize that scythes deal huge damage. Thanks for pointing that out

LifeInfusion · Jan 01, 2011, 04:36 PM // 16:36

The point I was making is that DOTs aren't that strong, even on paper with "perfect conditions". You need 5 seconds to put out a maximum of 400-500 every 30 seconds (15 if you run both heats), with 3 slots taken up just to do so, at the expense of utility and everything but damage. That's not even taking into account BuH's downtime and EBSoH's inability to move.

The only thing that really is different is the nearby range vs adjacent, since RoJ+BuH (no EBSoH effect) and DwG+Spirit Rift+BUH do more. You could run Snow Storm with 0 spec Deep Freeze and not have to dump so much effort into Fire Magic, since Fire Magic sans elites is lacking.

Frozen Ele · Jan 01, 2011, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

No you do not. My build provides more AoE efficiency than yours, because in addition to snares and EBSoH I have my own AoE skills (and more of them).

Efficiency increases are judged on relative terms, not absolute ones. This means that it’s not about how much raw AoE you have, but the percentage by which you increase it, so the fact that you might have two AoE skills or five-hundred AoE skills doesn’t matter when we’re talking about efficiency increases.

If you really want to get into the nitty-gritty and look at unbiased math, I increase the efficiency the most on my build. Assuming 100ar foes, Maelstrom will hit each for 13 damage for four hits, totaling 52 damage. With Deep Freeze and EBSH in place, I’m hitting them for 28 damage for six hits, totaling 168 damage. That’s a 223% increase.

Looking at your build, you may say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Deep Freeze lasts 10s. Tenai's Heat + Snow Storm + Searing Heat takes 2.75 + 1.75 + 2.75s < 10s.

Which is true, but doesn’t reflect AoE (AoE will continue after Deep Freeze and casting ends; since you’re using Deep Freeze as a preemptive measure (as a post measure it fails in your build), you have to factor in the aftercast delay from using it, totaling the casting time to 8s).

Looking at increases to efficiency (I went out and tested this):

If the foes are stationary when you start casting this chain, they’ll be on the move after 3s and they’ll keep moving through subsequent AoE. This means that you can assume that you’re first AoE will get five hits (three hits + two extra from snaring; four hits without), they’ll move straight through you’re second one (they would take two hits, but extended to four with snaring). Since they moved through the second AoE so quickly, there’s a gap when they’ll settle again (because of your cast time) of 1.75s, but only if you’re not snaring. If snaring, it takes the foes an additional 2s getting out, so the third AoE will start while they’re still running. The third AoE will get four hits in without snaring, but only three with snaring (since the foes are still on the move and Deep Freeze ended). Had the foes been snared a second time, they would have settled again (because you’re casting Ice Spikes next, not the third AoE) so you’d get 5 hits in with the third AoE. If you instead decide to wait and let the foes settle after the second AoE, the foes will take 4 hits (Deep Freeze ends before they try to escape). The best increase you could get is if you got all hits to hit the foes. When you break it down and look at the increases to efficiency:
· No snaring/EBSH: 4*20+2*21+4*21=206
· Deep Freeze (no waiting) + EBSH: 5*35+4*36+3*36=427, a 107% increase
· Deep Freeze (waiting) + EBSH: 5*35+4*36+4*36=463, a 125% increase
· Deep Freeze + Ice Spikes + EBSH: 5*35+4*36+5*36=499, a 142% increase
· All hits with EBSH: 36*5*2+35*5=535, a 160% increase

Most people wouldn’t realize that by waiting that extra 1.5s before casting the third AoE , they’re increasing its efficiency (I didn't see it before I tested the build out), so most people would have the 107% increase if just using Deep Freeze and EBSH (your build). Just by throwing in Ice Spikes (which you aren’t doing any timing with it’s casting, just casting right after the second AoE), you’re increasing AoE’s efficiency by 35%, a third greater than what you were already increasing it by.

This proves that, at least in your build, a second snare is needed if you want to get the most bang for your buck. Also, it proves that my build increases AoE efficiency more than your build does. Lastly, it demonstrates that even with your AoE, your build can’t guarantee that you’ll to be able to kill the foes within that 10s (you’re only doing 427 damage, which won’t kill foes, especially if they’ve got a healer); sure, they’re close to being dead, but closeness doesn’t cut it except in playing horseshoes (since you can’t assume your team set-up).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Then you are using your snares wrong. The aim is to use snares -> AoE after aggro settles, not before. And yes, mobs die before 10s when you use it right. Your case that snares are useful when you play badly is about as valid as arguing that Maelstrom sucks because it doesn't interrupt melee. I don't want to get into that.

A few points. First, if you’re controlling agro via snaring, you’re going to want your snare to cause the initial agro (that way melee is slowed down so if you’re brining melee of your own, it can get to the enemies faster, etc.). Second, if you’re waiting for agro to settle, it will settle into two clusters – the melee (which will run towards you) and the casters (that stay put). The latter only further validates the use of a second snare.

Show me that you can agro a group of melee and caster foes (at least five foes, roughly half of each type) so that they’re all within adjacent range, but remember; since you can’t assume team set-ups, you need to agro alone (to prove that regardless of the set-up, it’s possible to agro like this).

Two final bits: (1) you’re build can’t kill the foes from the AoE (which happened to be near 12s, not 10s), so you can’t say that they will die within 10s, and (2) if you are able to kill the group in 10s, doesn’t that prove snaring’s effectiveness?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you can't assume what your team brings, then I'll assume that your team has no AoE.

This exactlly why you can't assume party set-ups (plus, I can’t tell if you’re being serious or sarcastic). Since you can’t assume team set-up, you can’t assume how much AoE I’ve got (my team could have every source of AoE in the game), so you can’t assume I’d have none beyond Maelstrom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The casters will not be in nearby range vs. adjacent range nukes because you are (should be) aggro'ing properly.

Show me please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I don't spend so long casting that the foes are gone before I finish casting, or if they do then it doesn't matter how many snares I have on the bar. Deep Freeze lasts 10s. Tenai's Heat + Snow Storm + Searing Heat takes 2.75 + 1.75 + 2.75s < 10s. If I can't finish casting all my AoE nukes for some reason, neither can I even if I had Ice Spikes on the bar.

I don’t know if you mean gone as in dead, or gone as in left the AoE area. Either way, although the cast times are less than 10s, the AoE from the spells lasts beyond 10s, by which point Deep Freeze has ended and a second snare is required if you want to continue increasing the AoEs’ efficiency. It’s not about how long you spend casting, but how long your AoE is lasting (nice little ditty there

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Once again there is no second cluster because I aggro properly.

Again, show me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If there are times I need the second snare, I'll have an ally cast Deep Freeze.

Again, you can’t assume that they have it. Even if you do assume, you’ve still ignored the question – where are you going to put it? What’s more is that you have to deal with the fact that heroes misuse it and that players are often inefficient with its use when they’re using it as a supplement snare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you can't assume team set-up, then like I said I'm assuming you don't have AoE spells in your teambuild, which means you are increasing nothing.

Invalid logic: since you can’t assume team set-up, you can’t assume how much AoE I’ve got (my team could have every AoE in the game), so you can’t assume I’d have none.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Maelstrom doesn't shut mobs down for 10s. Not all spells cast in >1s.

Any spell that has a casting time of greater to or equal to 1s is interrupted, not just spells that are over 1s casts. Since foes’ spells that cast under 2s are not shortened in HM, all spells with a listed cast time 1s or greater are interrupted, which is the majority of spells (likely the supermajority of all non-Mesmer spells). The only class that you can’t assume would be interrupted is the Mesmer class. Still, being able to shut down Monks, Elementalist, Necromancers, and Ritualists (that are using spells, not just binding rituals), is superb support.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Blurred Vision cannot be cast on the entire mob ... unless you aggro properly, when there will not be two clusters and all monsters will die in 10s. Pick one. Either you aggro'ed properly and can Blurred the entire mob, or you didn't aggro properly and cannot. You cannot do both.

Again, a few points. First, foes aren’t guaranteed to be dead in 10s (proved see earlier). Second, show me “argo’ing properly.” Third, it’s only really important that you Blurred Visioned the melee, whether or not they’re in the one giant mob, or as their own cluster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Blurred Vision isn't better than Aegis. Mobs will be mostly dead before Aegis expires.

We’re not just talking about the ability to be able to kill everything while Aegis is up, but this is also a matter of moving from mob to mob. Sure, if you’re able to kill everything while Aegis is up, that’s great! But then you’re faced with the next mob and unless the mob is 20s away for you’re willing to wait 20s for Aegis to recharge before agro’ing, then Blurred Vision is better because it will be ready to be cast regardless of how close the next mob is or how long you wait (just to put it in context, if you’re VQing an area with 50 mobs, then you could spend up to 16.7 minutes waiting for Aegis to recharge, or over 33 minutes if there’s 100 mobs – you can save all that time by using Blurred Vision instead). Plus, like I said earlier, Aegis will only help to block wanding if you're only using Blurred Vision on the melee, but since you say that there's only one cluster, Blurred Vision could be used on everyone, so Aegis isn't better than Blurred Vision (it just comes down to hex vs. enchantment and from my experience, hexes are harder to remove) but when you factor in recharge (and casting too, why not?) Blurred Vision is better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If your party already has Aegis and Eruption then there is simply no need for Blurred Vision. What are you trying to do with Blurred Vision, reduce the enemy hit chance from 5% to 2.5%?

The purpose was to demonstrate how absurd it is to assume what your team does/doesn’t have – it leads to a pointless and unhelpful rat race (you’ve got this, well I’ll assume that I’ve got this!).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

No you do not have more support. You don't have EBSoH. If you do have EBSoH then you don't have Blurred Vision. If you don't have Blurred Vision then you are weaker than me with Aegis.

Same argument applies to you – to fit in Aegis, you said take out EBSH. You only have one or the other. I’ll recast what I said: replace EVAS with EBSH. You didn't pay much mind to former spell anyway, so this way my build has both EBSH and Blurred Vision, and yours only has EBSH or Aegis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You have two snares that you will never use / need, I have two snares on my teambuild, so you have no advantage.

I have three snares: Deep Freeze, Ice Spikes, “YMLaD!” and I proved that having the two former skills is necessary for maximizing AoE efficiency in some builds (yours for example). The last skill can be used as a snare, or rather as an interrupt, against a priority target, which we both have, so it’s a wash. Here, I’ve again got the advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you care so much about EVAS and YMLAD, like I said I'll drop some of the AoE skills (I have 3, you have 1) for both of them.

Ok, but let me see if I understand you right – you’re saying you don’t already have “YMLaD!” on your build? That means yours has got one snare against the three on my build, so not only does mine have the advantage of the second AoE snare but also the increased support from the priority target snare/interrupt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'll agree that snaring fills the niche of controlling aggro if you agree that Conjure Frost + "Go For The Eyes!" + Anthem of Envy + "Find Their Weaknesses!" + "By Ural's Hammer!" + EBSoH fills the niche of dealing most damage possible with wands.

You forgot Glyph of Elemental Power and “I Am the Strongest!” and make sure you’re using a wand with cold damage and a +1 water 20% offhand (for increasing Conjure Frost).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'm completely capable of controlling aggro by aggroing properly, while you have to dedicate an entire character to serving the same dubious task ...

Again, show me. But I’m not dedicating my character to controlling agro, it’s just a side advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You think all the foes are trapped only for an extra second because you performed the calculation that 3 x 3 = 9 < 10, not because you tried it.

No, I went out and tried it. I went into Borja Marches with a tank build, dropped Glyph of Sac + Meteor Shower then Fire Storm, and by using a stopwatch and watching the numbers, I compared the number of hits of Fire Storm to running it without Meteor Shower. Then I changed out Glyph of Sac and Meteor Shower for GoLE and Deep Freeze, repeated and noticed that there was only one extra hit from Meteor Shower, but two with Deep Freeze.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You did not try Glyph Sac Meteor Shower, because if you did you would know that Glyph Sac Meteor Shower does not have awful recharge. Hint: it's because of the second best elite available to Elementalists.

I know that you’d use AP, but that doesn’t change the fact that it has an awful recharge. What happens when AP get stripped or prevented from being put on (Hex Breaker, foe dying before finishing casting, etc.)? On top of that if you’re using it as your primary snare, then you’re going to need to use it frequently, so there’s the potential to quickly stack exhaustion. I’m not saying that whenever someone uses AP Glyph of Sac + Meteor Shower they’re going to have exhaustion problems (I think you would manage it fine) but you have to take everyone into consideration (including those that would just keep firing it off). Lastly, you still have the other problems with using an AP build for increasing snare efficiency (see my post(s) on the other page). Again, I’m not saying that you suffer from the taxation/distraction, but something that needs to be considered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you have tried Glyph Sac Meteor Shower you would know that the aim is not to snare the targets for as long as possible, but to kill them all before the "snare" (that is, Meteor Shower) expires. In other words, there is no difference between snaring a target for 100s and 10000s because they should be dead before either snare expires.

There might be no difference between 100s and 1000s, but there is between 8s and 10s (Meteor Shower vs. Deep Freeze) and even between 10s and 12s (your build has an increased 35% AoE efficiency just by having those two extra seconds of snare).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Yes Glyph Sac Meteor Shower does big damage. LifeInfusion is wrong. If you insist on using DoTAoE, learn to support it. Run Weaken Armour / BUH / EBSoH and tell me 119 damage gets reduced to 30-50. Does not happen, sorry.

I see that LifeInfusion answered this – I’ll trust his answers. The only thing that I want to make clear is that again, you can’t assume team set-ups, so unless you’re bringing all three of those skills (on top of Glyph of Sac + Meteor Shower + AP + probably other PvE skill + probably Fire Attunement), you can’t be sure they’re there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I think you're so bound to Water Magic that you have not really explored the other options available to Elementalists. The argument from ignorance is not a good one. Go out there and try the other elements before posting.

I don’t actually run Water Magic that often – I play quite a bit with other people and generally, they want me to run Fire/Earth/Air. I can probably run down my history as an Elementalist if that’s what you really want. Just because I’m knowledgeable about and have investigated Water Magic doesn’t mean that I have any ignorance about the other elements.

This isn’t just rude and offending, its borderline hostile. From this, it seems you’re more concerned about who’s saying what instead of what they’re saying; arguments should be weighed on their own merits, not those of the author (nice way of putting it Xenomortis). You certainly don’t see me try to badmouth you; keep this place an open bazaar for new ideas, not old prejudices.

If this discussion has really resorted to you name-calling, then count me out – it only proves that logic and reasoning won’t work in your favor.

Jeydra · Jan 02, 2011, 01:50 AM // 01:50

You're doing it wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8_i2j4QxXs

Everything you didn't want to believe is there. Mobs dead before 10s, Searing Flames (not even Meteor Shower) hitting >100 damage, no such things as "snare this warrior before he hits the monk", etc. There isn't even a need for GlyphSac Meteor Shower (which is more of a solo mob control build anyway) lol ...

If you don't believe this because of consumables, Lightbringer title etc, I'll go get you a screenshot of GlyphSac Meteor Shower in action in Bjora Marches. Interested?

LifeInfusion · Jan 02, 2011, 02:31 AM // 02:31

LB is +40%, BUH is +25%, he has 2-3 cons for +1 attribute (candy corn). That's basically 1.75x damage on a boosted attribute. There's no way the person could have gotten 241s and the like without that kind of a boost. That's similar to comparing something with Asuran Scan + I am the strongest to something without it.

BUH isn't maintainable normally, although I suspect with red Rock candy + Essence of Celerity it is doable. I don't use cons (I sell them off to people that rely on them for hard mode) so I wouldn't be able to tell you for sure.

I did numbers for Bjora Marshes without weaken armor already...the mobs have 70ish armor for casters and 80-100ish for armored mobs, so weaken armor wouldn't help that much because there's still level to be taken into account. Anything without armor penetration always does listed damage or less before boosts like BuH (in HM since all mobs are lvl 20+), since Weaken armor only reduces to 60 armor. Even with 25% armor penetration and weaken armor , lightning orb did a maximum of 140 (16 attribute = 106 listed).

Jeydra · Jan 02, 2011, 02:34 AM // 02:34

BUH doesn't need to be maintainable - mobs die before 10s.

100 armour -> 80 after Weaken Armour -> Meteor Shower should do over a hundred damage after BUH and EBSoH, I'm fairly confident. Note I didn't say Meteor Shower does over a hundred damage unsupported. I simply support my DoTAoE with the appropriate stuff, the same way you support your Scythe autoattacks with Barbs, MoP, Judge's Insight / SoH, etc.

Frozen Ele · Jan 03, 2011, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You're doing it wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8_i2j4QxXs

Everything you didn't want to believe is there. Mobs dead before 10s, Searing Flames (not even Meteor Shower) hitting >100 damage, no such things as "snare this warrior before he hits the monk", etc. There isn't even a need for GlyphSac Meteor Shower (which is more of a solo mob control build anyway) lol ...

If you don't believe this because of consumables, Lightbringer title etc, I'll go get you a screenshot of GlyphSac Meteor Shower in action in Bjora Marches. Interested?

I'm glad a SC team can kill a mob in <10s, if they couldn't, then I'd be worried. But SC teams, or team-builds in general, were never under question if they could kill in <10s. What's really in question is the build that the ele is running. We don't know what other people will or will not bring to the party - we can only be sure of the ele's build (your build, my build, etc.). If the ele's build can't guarentee that all the foes will be dead in <10s, then we can't assume that all the foes will be dead in <10s. If not dead in less than <10, then you'll need a second snare to keep 'em there (man, I'm on a roll with these jingles); if the foes aren't guarenteed to be dead in less than <10s, you'll need a second snare if you want to ensure increased AoE efficiency at all times (you'll also want one if the foes split into melee/caster, etc.).

As for the damage, I'm glad that the team could make use of really every available buff, including cons. Again, if the buffing skills aren't on the ele's build (the one we're discussing), then you can't assume they'll be there. Cons, LB, etc. should be excluded from the damage.

This video, in the end, is non-responsive to the claims I provided and doesn't show anything you were asked to show.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

BUH doesn't need to be maintainable - mobs die before 10s.

The problem is still: what are you going to do after you've killed the mob? (See what I said about Aegis on this) Are you going to wait 20s before agro'ing a new mob (which can add up to ~15-30 minutes during a VQ)? Lastly, see above about mobs dying in 10s.

Jeydra · Jan 03, 2011, 11:32 PM // 23:32

If you don't know what your teammates are bringing, there is no reason to bring snares.

If your team has AoE -> then snares are conceivably useful (although they still aren't exactly great).
If your team has no AoE -> then snares are pretty useless.
If you don't know what your team has, would you really bring something that might be completely useless? It's the same as bringing Strength of Honour. If a teambuild has SoH, you would (should) be able to guess that there's at least one melee somewhere.
If there is no AoE in the team, your purported niche of "increased AoE efficiency" simply does not exist.

It is not one player's job to guarantee that all enemies will be dead in <10s, it is the job of the team.

After I've killed the mob I move on to the next one. Don't complain about 20s downtime, you once said you're happy to cast out your high set with Mind Freeze. By the way 20s is more than enough time to aggro the next mob. The downtime is less than that of Maelstrom, but I don't see you dissing Maelstrom because of its recharge. Besides, AP makes sure there is no downtime.

Here're your screenshots of GlyphSac Meteor Shower in Bjora Marches. This clearly isn't a H/H teambuild - careful aggro for GlyphSac Meteor Shower takes a player-controlled tank. My build wasn't very good either; it was completely thrown together in 10 seconds. Neither did I bother changing my teambuild to include Weaken Armour. But it worked. Watch carefully.

Screenshot 1: Now is the time when you use Meteor Shower. The targets aren't going to move. http://img714.imageshack.us/i/gw038z.jpg/

Screenshot 2: Who says Meteor Shower doesn't hit for >80 damage per tick? I didn't have Weaken Armour in the build, too. http://img405.imageshack.us/i/gw039h.jpg/

Screenshot 3: And the targets are still in the AoE 9s later. Without Deep Freeze. Note that all the targets caught in Meteor Shower are dead. With a player-controlled tank it's very possible to ball the entire mob, which would kill the entire mob in 9s. http://img826.imageshack.us/i/gw040u.jpg/

kodomo · Jan 04, 2011, 01:08 AM // 01:08

so i didn't even get to read all of this guide before felt the people needed to be set straight.There are so many things wrong with whats being said about eles and some one needs to stand up for them. The way people are talking makes it sound like the increase to monsters armor is only for elemental damage but thats not true its across all the board playing on both ends(as war and ele) my normal ele build (which is earth) outputs as much or more damage then a war regardless of the buffs. Im not entirely sure if there were screen shots for the ele's damage output on the terrible example of the master of damage but if some one wants to test it out here are a few skills to use. {double dragon "By Urals Hammer" Glyph of Elemental Power and a few AoE fire skills} once we've done this maybe ill talk about why a competent earth ele is better if not as good as a war

reaper with no name · Jan 04, 2011, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Don't worry, guys, I'll take this one.

When it comes to Elementalists versus other casters, most other casters have easy access to armor-ignoring damage. Elementalists do not.

When it comes to Elementalists versus melee classes, melee classes do more damage than elementalists to begin with (see the first post in the thread). Furthermore, much of their damage is +dmg, which ignores armor. So they are much less affected by enemy armor than elementalists.

In other words, against a lvl 28 monster, elementalist damage is cut in half. Not so for everyone else.