Curse

Frozen Ele · Jan 06, 2010, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Water Magic

Classification & Use:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Water Magic: The most useless of your elemental lines. It simply has no uses I’m aware of. I used to think it was necessary to H/H Moddok’s Crevice HM with, but then not so long ago I did Masters with just "You Move Like A Dwarf!" and Assassin’s Promise for snares, consigning Water to near-uselessness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Here's my basic thoughts about water magic: it is a generalist line. It does a bit of snaring, does a bit of damage, does a bit of armor boosting, etc. however it doesn't really excel in anything. However that's where it runs into problems. Over in warrior I've been trying to tell people not to overextend their builds and try to do too many different things with their warriors. I think that's the main problem with water in PvE, it's flexible but it does too much and nothing really well.

From my experience, here is how I see the breakdown of water magic skills:

Support (7): Protection of allies; does not damage foes but rather increases survivability of you and your teammate(s).
Self (6)
· Armor of Frost
· Armor of Mist
· Mist Form [E]
· Frigid Armor
· Swirling Aura
· Water Attunement
Others (1)
· Ward Against Harm [E]
Damage (6): Used purely for damage, does not provide a snare or support.
Single Target (6)
· Ice Spear
· Conjure Frost
· Vapor Blade
· Glowing Ice
· Mirror of Ice [E]
· Shatterstone [E]
AoE (0)
· N/A
Snare (17): Causes adverse effects on the foe, ranging from slowing them down, disabling signets, to interruptions and conditions.
Single Target (11)
· Freezing Gust
· Ice Prison
· Icy Prism
· Icy Shackles [E]
· Mind Freeze [E]
· Shard Storm
· Slippery Ground
· Steam
· Teinai’s Prison
· Water Trident [E]
· Winter’s Embrace
AoE (6)
· Blurred Vision
· Deep Freeze
· Frozen Burst
· Ice Spikes
· Maelstrom
· Rust

With this breakdown, snares are the majority of water magic skills, especially when some of the damage skills (Mirror of Ice, Glowing Ice) are often used in combination to snares anyway, making it so that abut 2/3 of the skills are snare oriented. In the damage skills, some of the skills (namely Mirror of Ice) would be less useful without combining either a self-support (or Ice Spear: getting closer to enemies because of the spell is half-range could cause you to be a greater target) or snares (namely hexes, for MoI). One could combine Shatterstone, Glowing Ice and Vapor Blade for a build, as suggested in Cebe’s guide. In the support category (Water Attunement placed there since it aids energy management), the elite most likely used would be Ward Against Harm (Mist Form could be used with Glyph of Swiftness – to keep it up constantly – and Ice Spear, to combat the half-range effect from the latter spell, although WAH could be equally effective because of the reduced damage from all sources vs. no damage from melee). Just using water magic, a build devoted to pure support would be less likely (since most of the support skills are self-supports), but snare/support, damage/supports are viable options if one wanted to stick with water. Based off of this, I would say that hydromancers are most snare-aligned, although have pure damage and support options.

Being snare-aligned would suggest that the use of water magicians is mainly for snares. The snares of the water elementalist range, but the most classic snare is slow-down. Other snares include causing enemies to miss, lengthening signet activation time, interrupting and disabling signets, knockdown while moving, spell interruption and conditioning (namely blind). With an exception of 4 snares, if I’m counting right, the snares also deal damage, giving them the ability to deal damage whilst snaring. The main advantage from water snares is that they stack with condition. Water snares are mainly hexes, which would stack with a condition. For example, blind will stack with blurred vision, a slow-down with cripple. This allows water eles to be primary snarers with certain snares (slow-down) and be supplementary snarers in other areas (missing). More in-depth, water magicians provide the most slow down of any profession. Mesmers can slow an enemey down 20-40%, but are not able to rival the water ele 66% slower. Rangers can cripple, providing a 50% slow-down, but still does not reach the water ele 66%. To reach 66%, a combination between crippling (Ranger) and other slow-downs (Mesmer) must be used, causing a need for 2 skills/players instead of one. Oppositely, air eles (with Blinding Surge, Flash) can inflict blindness (90% missing). Without a burning enemy, the best a water ele could do is a 50% miss rate (Blurred Vision). If a water ele wanted to surpass an air ele (or Ranger, etc.) in this field, it would need to bring along another skill (Elemental Hex, Glyph of Immolation) or have a teammate set the enemy on fire.

Focusing on the primary snare of the water ele, slow-downs, this effect has the potential to add a lot to a team. Argo-ing a group of enemies correctly (pulling, sending in a tank – namely via a Shadow Step) to keep them bunched up allows for the most affect from an AoE water snare. Using Deep Freeze or Ice Spikes, all of the enemies will move at 1/3rd the rate and will remain bunched. This allows allies to safely use AoE skills and spells without worry from the group breaking up. This, as mentioned above, provides for optimal dps from an ele, since it’s AoE spells can now hit 5 or more foes. A water ele can then use Maelstrom to take out casters, allowing for quick killing of the enemy group. Use of Blurred Vision can assist in shutting down melee-ers. Also, slowing down foes allows allies to not have to kite (as much). After watching enemy AI warriors targeting my monks and chasing them around, I enjoy the use of water magic. While a caster is fleeing, it cannot cast, ultimately not being able to deal damage or heal, but by slowing down the chasers, the time of dodging is reduced, allowing casters to be most efficient, since the pursuer, now moving at 1/3rd the speed, will quickly give up the chase. (This idea of chasing would only happen if the bunched up, slowed down group breaks up)

(NOTE: Water eles can keep enemies moving nearly permanently at 1/3rd the speed by making use of Deep Freeze and Ice Spikes – the slow down will start to break up for a second or two if cast times are not shortened)

Moving on to other snares, another notable one being Maelstrom. Maelstrom, being combined with a slow down, can keep enemy casters at bay by causing a nasty trap. If enemy casters refuse to stop casting, then their spells will be interrupted. On the other hand, if they try to escape the Maelstrom, it will take them 3 times as long because of the slow-down (using Slippery Ice or Water Trident as a knockdown can keep casters at bay for the full duration of Maelstrom).

The Maelstorm method is an effective way of shutting down caster(s). Using a slow-down, Blurred Vision, and Rust effectively shuts down a melee-er, warrior in particular, especially if Icy Prism is also used. Causing them to not reach their target, causing them to miss if they do (reach, that is), and cause them to be useless if using Healing Signet (now twice as long to use) is a good shutdown.

(NOTE: Maelstrom is a very nice interrupt skill because of the number of times it interrupts foes during its duration (10 vs. the 4 from Meteor Shower), although it does not necessarily cause as much damage - but hey, targeting a monk, the monk could heal in-between meteors, but not as easily (or at all, depending on the monk) between Maelstrom interrupts)

The one class that trumps a snarer is the ritualist. Using binding rituals, not spells, and having spirits not being able to be targeted for hexes, the snarer is virtually useless. The exception is, of course, that one is fighting in PvE, where most AI rits will stand will their spirits, making it so that a snarer can still target the rit and effectively take out the spirits by using AoE snares.

(NOTE: a full water snarer, especially an AoE one, can put 5 or so hexes on multiple foes, making it so that hex stripping, is not as viable)

As a brief summary on classification and use of a water ele:
· Mainly snaring skills, although can go as pure damage-only or support-only
· Snares include conditioning, slowing down, missing, lengthening signet activation time and disabling, interrupting, knockdown
· Slow-downs are effective for keeping a group balled-up, allowing for safe use of AoE or “nuking” skills
· Slow-downs reduce the “dodging” time, allowing more maximum efficiency of a team
· Enemy(ies) can be kept in near permanent slow down
· Water eles, out of all of the classes in the game, provide the most, and best, slow-downs
· Water snarers can shut down melee-ers and casters
· Water snares, by hurting the enemy group via effects and damage, support your own team

Niche

Before I move onto builds, I’d like to spend a bit of time on the niche idea. As already mentioned as the premier slow-downer, water eles are arguably the top snarers altogether, able to shut down casters and melee-ers. Location-ally specific, water eles go up well against Charr, Destroyers, and in the Ring of Fire. With the Charr, WAH works very well, since most Charr one would face either use a fire elemental weapon or are fire eles, allowing a water ele to play a good support role. Destroyers have –20 armor against water magic and in addition, have no healers so hex removal is not a problem (Destroyers of Thought have 2 hex removal skills, but will wil only remove 1 hex each and have moderate recharge times, one 15s the other, 10s). Ring of Fire enemies, particularly Spark of the Titans, deal fire damage, allowing the WAH water ele to play an effective role there. Combining both the Charr and the Titans together, as in the Titan quests, provides a support role against almost each enemy. These areas cover a good deal of EotN and Prophecies and are the ones I can think of off of the top of my head, others might include Shiro’ken (Star Burst from the eles). Djinn (Ruby ones are SF eles, others are melee-ers. Accompanying Roaring Ethers’ use of signets would be hindered).

Builds

A look at some of the more well-known and personal favorite water magic builds.

Mirror of Ice

First, let’s start with the build that was being pieced together in the Use section. The primary skills mentioned were Maelstrom, Blurred Vision, Rust, and Deep Freeze for shitting down both casters and melee-ers. Ice Spikes would prolong the slow-down time, making it almost permanent. For energy management, Water Attunement is needed and because of the high use of hex snares, Glowing Ice might be needed. As an elite, Mirror of Ice is probably the most viable option because of its nature as a low energy, long lasting enchantment. That totals 7 skills (8 if you use both Glowing Ice and Ice Spikes). The last would most likely be a PvE skill, to which I would suggest Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, since the additional damage would be added to each enemy affected by the AoE skill. Attributes would be:

Water Magic: 12 + 1 + 3
Energy Storage: 12 + 1

[Mirror of Ice][Deep Freeze][Glowing Ice][Blurred Vision][Rust][Ice Spikes][Maelstrom][Water Attunement] or replacing in [Ebon Battle Standard of Honor]

Replacing EBSH in for Glowing Ice would increase dps, but would decrease energy management.

Code: OgBCsMzkSk6w6Azw0w1QuI0A

This build was used without casting Blurred Vision. Also, each of the adjacent targets received 703 damage over 10 seconds, raising the total damage to 2288 over 10 seconds, or 229 damage per second. Had this been a group of 5, agro-ed properly, the total damage would have been 3694 over 10 seconds, or 369 damage per second. Hard Mode, against warriors and higher armor rated enemies, the damage would have been reduced anywhere between ½ to ¾, depending on the armor of the opponents, making the dps something more around 57-115 dps (3 enemy group) or 92-185 dps (5 enemy group). Besides just dealing damage, interrupts, slow-downs, longer signets, and chance of missing was dealt. Many variants to this build can be made (such as if you already have a sorce for blindness, not bringing Blurred Vision, or if you don’t need nor want the extra slow down from Ice Spikes). One could swap out Shatterstone for Mirror of Ice, although I recommend not, since doing so will make energy management even harder.

Other replacement skills could include:
· Snow Storm, for more AoE damage
· Elemental Hex for burning
· Soul Barbs for additional damage per hex, or Necrosis for armor-ignoring damage

Here’s one variant:

Code: OgBCsMzkS01gro6w0AzQuI0A

Calculating in the damage done to the adjacent targets, dps was 305. If this was a 5 enemy group, the dps would have been 500. Factoring in HM and armor, the dps becomes 76-153 (3 enemies) and 125-250 (5 enemies).

Now, I understand that the dsp calculations were done over a 10s cycle, the time it takes to unload all of the snares. Here are some calculations over longer periods of time:

In this longer battle, when the damage done to the targets is added, the dps becomes 138. Against a 5 enemy group the dps becomes 220.

Here’s the second build:

Targets included, dps was 159. Against a 5 enemy group, dps would have been 259.

MoI builds can vary depending on the team size, the area, size of the enemy group, type of team members, etc. which can influence the magnitude of energy management needed and the type of snares to bring (ex. More casters, don’t bring Blurred Vision, fewer casters – more melee – maybe not bring Maelstrom, but instead Icy Prism).

That was, more or less, the typical MoI build.
(NOTE: MoI damage is armor-ignoring, which can provide more useful in HM)

Glyph of Energy

Over the course of those battles (the long ones), MoI only provided a few hundred damage and because of energy management, it was harder to cast high energy spells, which is why in longer battles, Glyph of Energy is more useful. In quick battles, dsp is actually hindered, so knowing the group sizes and estimated battle lengths are a must.

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Short term:

Here, dps against all 3 was about 293, about 12 dps less than the short battle with the MoI variant (489 dps against 5 enemies). In the long term, GoE proves to be more effective:

Here, the dps against all 3 was 186 (310 against 5 enemies) and the energy is easier to maintain. Once again, it depends on the type of battles you are fighting in as to which one is more effective.

Shatterstone

Next is Shatterstone. I tend to stick to a combination between damage and snares on this one:

Water Magic 12 + 1 + 3
Energy Storage 12 + 1

[Shatterstone][Glowing Ice][Vapor Blade][Deep Freeze][Maelstrom][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Water Attunement]

Code: OgBCsMzUKDkoYj6w1QuIyA0A

Dps: 201 when the 2 targets are included (304 against 5)

Dps: 89 when the 2 targets are included (135 against 5)

There can easily be energy management problems with Shatterstone builds, as well as a lower dps because only one enemy is actually taking damage.

Ward Against Harm

The next build is a Ward Against Harm build and because of its support nature, harder to quantify:

Water Magic 12 + 1 + 3
Energy Storage 12 + 1

[Ward Against Harm][Deep Freeze][Blurred Vision][Winter’s Embrace][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor][Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Water Attunement] or substituting in [Glowing Ice] is a viable option, depending on if you have energy management issues

Code: OgBCsMz07g6wz36QuIuIyA0A

NOTE: Using Ward Against Harm in combination with Greater Conflaguration will cause all melee damage to become fire damage, and thus reduced greatly. If using both elites in a party, using Mantra of Flame and Pyromancer Insignias can effectively reduce all fire ele and melee to nearly zero, which is especially nice in HM.

Interrupter

Here’s a build I enjoy using from time to time:

Air Magic 4
Water Magic 9 + 1
Energy Storage 12 + 1 +3
Curses 8

[Ice Spear][Shivers of Dread][Spinal Shivers][Soul Barbs][Ether Renewal][Armor of Mist][Glyph of Swiftness][Water Attunement]

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Sync-ing well with a water snarer, the purpose of the build is to hex the two largest threats to your group (often times a monk and mesmer/ele), casting Shivers of Dread/Spinal Shivers. Picking the target you want taken out first, spam Ice Spear, providing an interrupt less than every other second. With a water snarer, particularly a MoI/GoE one, also attacking the target (interrupting both if the two are standing close together), the target is interrupted every second or less. This build differs from Maelstrom since it can interrupt continuously (vs. in 10 second bursts from Maelstrom), deals more damage to the target than Maelstrom alone and the interrupt is not area specific.

These are just a few water magic build and there are, of course, many possible variants.

Will add a section about compatability and benefits w/ other types of characters to this post and will add another post about other parts of the guide.

WhiteAsIce · Jan 06, 2010, 02:18 AM // 02:18

I love water magic. Heck, I named my Ele after water magic. However, I personally feel that water is very limited in PvE because snares are next to useless because AI foes generally do not move unless forced by DoT AoE. Water is more PvP than anything.

Need to snare something? Don't, because anything with ranged attacks or skills isn't going anywhere. AoE snares are pointless unless there's another Ele running Savannah Heat or Sandstorm. Don't even bother using Maelstrom on snared foes because of its pitiful damage. Want to snare the melee foes? Just use Blurred Vision, and there goes 50% of their hits.

Don't bother using a typical Ele in HM. The increased armor of all foes renders most Ele spells useless. I once used Savannah Heat @14 Fire Magic on a Necromancer foe in HM, and the only damage I saw on it was 3 6 9 12 15. If you want to do damage, you'll have to rely on any or all of the following:
* the armor-ignoring spells of Earth magic
* constant burning via Searing Flames and Mark of Rodgort
* PvE skills
* your secondary to do damage

I feel like I'm saying the same thing again. Oh right, I posted this in a similar thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteAsIce

Honestly, I like using Water spells too, but there aren't many effective builds in PvE.

* Technobabble > GoE + Maelstrom. TB does armor-ignoring, albeit low, damage, and dazes. Even though daze doesn't last long, TB recharges fast enough.
* Winter's Embrace - foes don't move much in PvE unless you cast on the melee, and if they bug you, Blurred Vision solves that.
* Why spec into Inspiration just for Mantra when you could have Mindbender to cast faster?

Elite problems:
* Glyph of Energy - explained above
* Water Trident - foes don't move too much in PvE unless they are melee, and YMLaD! is a better KD move
* Ward Against Harm - EBSoC is just as good. WAH is only needed in places with heavy fire damage.
* Shatterstone - I would rather go /N for Necrosis spamming
* Icy Shackles & Mind Freeze - no need to snare in PvE, just blow them up

If I want to use Water, I don't looking for damage, but rather utility. I love using Necrosis, so I tried to include that while using decent Water spells.

Want utility without sacrificing damage? Necrosis is great in HM when most other Ele spells are affected by armor.

Energy Storage 12+1
Water Magic 12+1+1
---
Necrosis
Blurred Vision
Rust
Glowing Ice
Technobabble
Choice of PvE skill: Mindbender, Ebon Battle Standard of Honor/Courage/Wisdom, Elemental Lord, etc.
Water Attunement
Ether Renewal

You should not run out of energy quickly, but in case of energy shortage, hit ER, and spam Necrosis for positive energy spikes. Blurred Vision and Rust are for AoE hexing, great if running with Discord heroes.

HigherMinion · Jan 06, 2010, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteAsIce

Energy Storage 12+1
Water Magic 12+1+1
---
Necrosis
Blurred Vision
Rust
Glowing Ice
Technobabble
Choice of PvE skill: Mindbender, Ebon Battle Standard of Honor/Courage/Wisdom, Elemental Lord, etc.
Water Attunement
Ether Renewal

You should not run out of energy quickly, but in case of energy shortage, hit ER, and spam Necrosis for positive energy spikes. Blurred Vision and Rust are for AoE hexing, great if running with Discord heroes.

Attunment + ER, yeyeye I can see where you're coming from with that combo... MORE energy. You already have Glowing Ice, ER seems pointless in that build. Or the attunmnents/glowing ice.

saitou · Jan 06, 2010, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Since when do mobs sit still in HM? They may not run around the same way people do in PvP but they move around plenty to cause chaos, and they are moving faster in HM too. A snare like Deep Freeze, which is in the area is way more useful than Blurred Vision, provided you have the energy management to cast it regularly. I can't imagine doing DoA with Blurred Vision in place of snares. The damage on DF isn't that great individually but for large mobs it really adds up due to its range. I agree in general it's better to rely on other sources of damage than straight water, but I definitely do not agree that snares are useless in PvE.

Thanks to the OP for making me aware of some new builds. I generally dislike enchantments but I can't argue with the power of ER as an engine. My only comment is that people who like staring at red bars a lot usually chose to play a monk, and eles shouldn't be forced to sacrifice fun for optimality. This obviously comes down to the people you play with, but it does get tiresome hearing so many things are "useless" because they aren't as optimal as something else.

Cebe · Jan 07, 2010, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Really nice follow-up to mine. It's difficult enough to get just the basics into one guide, let alone anything more. This provides some nice extra guidance. Reminds me really, I should really update the basic one some time!

Malician · Jan 08, 2010, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by saitou

Thanks to the OP for making me aware of some new builds. I generally dislike enchantments but I can't argue with the power of ER as an engine. My only comment is that people who like staring at red bars a lot usually chose to play a monk, and eles shouldn't be forced to sacrifice fun for optimality. This obviously comes down to the people you play with, but it does get tiresome hearing so many things are "useless" because they aren't as optimal as something else.

Step one: Stare at red bars while playing ER.
Step two: Meteor shower, d-shot, or well of the profane.
Step three: Complain about how bad ER fails.

;p

Charlotte the Harlot · Jan 09, 2010, 06:26 AM // 06:26

I will agree that utility is not necessary but copious amounts of defense isn't either and there are many times where sacrificing some (SOME) damage for utility will help the team more than more damage would.

An ele can supply great offensive utility through cracked armor, which not only helps the main damage dealers but also helps the elementalist's problem of more HM armor. Snares are very good for those stupid monks that don't stop running and are very useful for controling the agro making the warriors job easier and in areas where the mobs are tight preventing the fleeing foes from aggroing more crap. Earth magic has good knock downs which are useful offensively and defensively and IMO fairly usable in the right team context.

I find utility characters most useful in a situation where its either 2 monks or 1 monk and a utility character which also supplies decent damage usually becomes the better choice. The elementalist is also excellent at using several attributes meaning if you want some snares from water or cracked armor from air you can while still running another attribute effectively.

Many elementalist skills hit multiple enemies multiple times meaning fairly decent damage can be achieved with EBSoH and although not as good as a warrior or assassin it is still noticeable damage from a character supplying a lot of utility. In a fully optimized build an elementalist using elemental attributes may not have a clear role but optimization can not be assumed and the vast majority of players do not have access to 8 human characters of their choice and in most situations water, fire, earth, and/or air are all very effective in HM.

HigherMinion · Jan 09, 2010, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlotte the Harlot

I will agree that utility is not necessary but copious amounts of defense isn't either and there are many times where sacrificing some (SOME) damage for utility will help the team more than more damage would.

An ele can supply great offensive utility through cracked armor, which not only helps the main damage dealers but also helps the elementalist's problem of more HM armor. Snares are very good for those stupid monks that don't stop running and are very useful for controling the agro making the warriors job easier and in areas where the mobs are tight preventing the fleeing foes from aggroing more crap. Earth magic has good knock downs which are useful offensively and defensively and IMO fairly usable in the right team context.

I find utility characters most useful in a situation where its either 2 monks or 1 monk and a utility character which also supplies decent damage usually becomes the better choice. The elementalist is also excellent at using several attributes meaning if you want some snares from water or cracked armor from air you can while still running another attribute effectively.

Many elementalist skills hit multiple enemies multiple times meaning fairly decent damage can be achieved with EBSoH and although not as good as a warrior or assassin it is still noticeable damage from a character supplying a lot of utility. In a fully optimized build an elementalist using elemental attributes may not have a clear role but optimization can not be assumed and the vast majority of players do not have access to 8 human characters of their choice and in most situations water, fire, earth, and/or air are all very effective in HM.

Well, I wouldn't say very effective. But if you have lots of armour-dependent damage on your team, go for it.

The thing is, physicals are alot stronger when, as an ER ele, you can maintain 3x Great Dwarf Weapons on the team. If you think about it, this is like Searing Heat being maintained x3. And ZMG the damage moves

Instead of your nuke going to waste because the enemies moved.

The better teams will not use armour-dependent damage for HM.

Charlotte the Harlot · Jan 10, 2010, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Well, I wouldn't say very effective. But if you have lots of armour-dependent damage on your team, go for it.

The thing is, physicals are alot stronger when, as an ER ele, you can maintain 3x Great Dwarf Weapons on the team. If you think about it, this is like Searing Heat being maintained x3. And ZMG the damage moves

Instead of your nuke going to waste because the enemies moved.

The better teams will not use armour-dependent damage for HM.

I know how good ER is but if you have a team of mostly casters, already have monks, etc you arent always going to want to run it. Of course its better than an elemental focused build but its not always appropriate.

HigherMinion · Jan 10, 2010, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlotte the Harlot

I know how good ER is but if you have a team of mostly casters, already have monks, etc you arent always going to want to run it. Of course its better than an elemental focused build but its not always appropriate.

If there are monks in the team I'd ask them to clean/smite instead. I'm sure they'd be willing to swap roles for once.

In a PuG group or even allies, you will have almost always *atleast* 2 physicals. If not then... Well, it might just be my playing style. Even when not MoPing, I still prefer tons of physicals in the teams.

Jeydra · Jan 12, 2010, 03:32 PM // 15:32

I'll give utility some credit the next time I update this guide, since it does have a place if you're PuGGing or something and your team is such that you need more defense, but don't need an all-out defensive character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlotte the Harlot

An ele can supply great offensive utility through cracked armor, which not only helps the main damage dealers but also helps the elementalist's problem of more HM armor. Snares are very good for those stupid monks that don't stop running and are very useful for controling the agro making the warriors job easier and in areas where the mobs are tight preventing the fleeing foes from aggroing more crap.

The problem is that if you want cracked armour then Weaken Armour is usually more effective at applying it (it certainly is more spammable than Lightning Orb / Shell Shock, and it's AoE). If you want snares, YMLAD! is also better at it. Not only does it snare, it also KDs ... and so can double as an interrupt.

@Frozen Ele - I think you covered everything Water Magic can hope to achieve, but I can't agree that it's got its uses. Take this, for example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozen Ele

Before I move onto builds, I’d like to spend a bit of time on the niche idea. As already mentioned as the premier slow-downer, water eles are arguably the top snarers altogether, able to shut down casters and melee-ers. Location-ally specific, water eles go up well against Charr, Destroyers, and in the Ring of Fire. With the Charr, WAH works very well, since most Charr one would face either use a fire elemental weapon or are fire eles, allowing a water ele to play a good support role. Destroyers have –20 armor against water magic and in addition, have no healers so hex removal is not a problem (Destroyers of Thought have 2 hex removal skills, but will wil only remove 1 hex each and have moderate recharge times, one 15s the other, 10s). Ring of Fire enemies, particularly Spark of the Titans, deal fire damage, allowing the WAH water ele to play an effective role there. Combining both the Charr and the Titans together, as in the Titan quests, provides a support role against almost each enemy. These areas cover a good deal of EotN and Prophecies and are the ones I can think of off of the top of my head, others might include Shiro’ken (Star Burst from the eles). Djinn (Ruby ones are SF eles, others are melee-ers. Accompanying Roaring Ethers’ use of signets would be hindered).

If you need snares (you normally do not, unless you're doing tank and spank), then YMLAD! is usually better. If you're using Water to deal damage, then Fire is usually better. The most your builds did for example is 108 damage per second. It's DoTAoE vs. a MoD that doesn't move. If we look at this specific case, then Fire overpowers 108 DPS. Try it yourself. Take Searing Heat, Tenai's Heat, Savannah Heat, Liquid Flame, Arcane Echo (use on SH), the Ebon Honour ward, By Ural's Hammer and 16 Fire magic, and see what the results are. If not using DoTAoE vs. a stationary foe, then Fire is again superior. Try Arcane Echo Searing Flames with Mark of Rodgort and Elemental Attunement support vs. the MoD and compare the results.

Against foes that Fire does not work well on (e.g. Destroyers), you again have other options. I don't know if Destroyers have -20 armour against Water, but if they do, Air duplicates it anyway by applying Cracked Armour - and more, since it has 25% armour penetration. There's also Earth to consider, with Churning Earth acting as a pseudo-snare. And finally where hex removal is not prevalent, AP works very well.

What else is there? Ward Against Harm? The Ward requires you to ball into it to work, and Fire magic is typically AoE - you want to scram out of it, not ball. Sure in ideal situations you can ward your entire team, but realistically it won't happen. Rust? There aren't many signets in the game, and where there are they usually are little more than a minor annoyance (like the Roaring Ethers you mentioned - just kill them again, won't take more than 5 seconds). Spinal Shivers? Interesting idea, but frankly it sure seems more worth it to just Daze the target (Broad Head Arrow, Technobabble), if you ever need such single-target shutdown.

By the way I took the second build you posted on the Rotscale ZQ a few days ago. There's a massive energy problem. Two 25e spells with neither GoLE nor Glowing Ice to maintain energy, and two spells that don't return energy from Water Attunement. For long periods while staring Rotscale in the face, I found myself wanding him (funny though how much damage a maxed, customized wand does with EBSoH up).

PS: Mesmer snares = 50%, not 20-40%.

Frozen Ele · Jan 13, 2010, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you need snares (you normally do not, unless you're doing tank and spank), then YMLAD! is usually better. If you're using Water to deal damage, then Fire is usually better. The most your builds did for example is 108 damage per second. It's DoTAoE vs. a MoD that doesn't move. If we look at this specific case, then Fire overpowers 108 DPS. Try it yourself. Take Searing Heat, Tenai's Heat, Savannah Heat, Liquid Flame, Arcane Echo (use on SH), the Ebon Honour ward, By Ural's Hammer and 16 Fire magic, and see what the results are. If not using DoTAoE vs. a stationary foe, then Fire is again superior. Try Arcane Echo Searing Flames with Mark of Rodgort and Elemental Attunement support vs. the MoD and compare the results.

First and foremost, it seems to me that you don’t even understand how the Master of Damage calculates dps. In short, he only records damage done to him. He doesn’t record damage done to the two targets behind him (I was going to include this in the second post I was making, but got too busy to finish it, I might finish it up here in the next few days). That 108 dps, is the dps only against him, but… you’re also doing damage to the targets behind him, which would affect dps (I included the dps if the targets were factored in for the builds I posted). The argument I was making in that section was not that water magic is the highest damage dealer out of all of the elements, but it can rival and surpass damage done by warriors. My argument for the use of water magic was above, in which I say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozen Ele

Focusing on the primary snare of the water ele, slow-downs, this effect has the potential to add a lot to a team. Argo-ing a group of enemies correctly (pulling, sending in a tank – namely via a Shadow Step) to keep them bunched up allows for the most affect from an AoE water snare. Using Deep Freeze or Ice Spikes, all of the enemies will move at 1/3rd the rate and will remain bunched. This allows allies to safely use AoE skills and spells without worry from the group breaking up. This, as mentioned above, provides for optimal dps from an ele, since it’s AoE spells can now hit 5 or more foes. A water ele can then use Maelstrom to take out casters, allowing for quick killing of the enemy group. Use of Blurred Vision can assist in shutting down melee-ers. Also, slowing down foes allows allies to not have to kite (as much). After watching enemy AI warriors targeting my monks and chasing them around, I enjoy the use of water magic. While a caster is fleeing, it cannot cast, ultimately not being able to deal damage or heal, but by slowing down the chasers, the time of dodging is reduced, allowing casters to be most efficient, since the pursuer, now moving at 1/3rd the speed, will quickly give up the chase. (This idea of chasing would only happen if the bunched up, slowed down group breaks up)

Using the fire magic builds you provided in HM will cause them to scatter, turning the AoE pyromancer into only being able to do damage to a single-target. By using water magic, you’re able to stop the enemies from scattering, keeping them balled up so you can have optimal damage output and safely use DoTAoE. (just a side note, the second build is not doable; you’re proposing using two elites (SF and Elemental Attunement), to which the only way that can be done is if a party member brings one of the two elites and you bring Arcane Mimicry).

My entire argument with water magic is that it is water magic which makes fire magic AoE builds possible, while crippling foes in other ways and providing damage at the same time.

For YMLAD!, that skill only affects one enemy, not a group of them like water snares can. Also, YMLAD! is a knock-down/cripple, that (1) does not provide the same magnitude of a slow-down (50% vs. 66%) (2), deals less damage than a water snare when AoE is factored in (3) only affects one enemy, so if there are multiple agressors, one can not possible deal with all of them. Since the slow-down from YMLAD! is crippling, it is fully compatable with water hex snares and there's nothing preventing you from using YMLAD! as a supplement to water snares; YMLAD! can be a supplement to, but cannot replace in fullness, water magic snares.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Against foes that Fire does not work well on (e.g. Destroyers), you again have other options. I don't know if Destroyers have -20 armour against Water, but if they do, Air duplicates it anyway by applying Cracked Armour - and more, since it has 25% armour penetration. There's also Earth to consider, with Churning Earth acting as a pseudo-snare. And finally where hex removal is not prevalent, AP works very well.

The problem with air in this instance is that air spells, with an exception of a few, are not AoE; thus, the dps will be lower although there is more armor penetration. As for Churning Earth, there aren’t too many instances when enemies would be traveling faster than normal. AP still doesn’t provide snares and also, in an area where there is hex removal, AP won’t be too effective, whereas a water AoE snarer, which can deal 3-5 hexes per foe (which can total 15-25 hexes easily) will still be effective; foes don’t have the capacity to remove that many hexes, especially not fast enough before the water ele can re-cast (even if there was the scenario where a monk was able to remove the hexes, that’d be all it was doing, it wouldn’t be able to heal, making the enemy group even easier to kill).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What else is there? Ward Against Harm? The Ward requires you to ball into it to work, and Fire magic is typically AoE - you want to scram out of it, not ball. Sure in ideal situations you can ward your entire team, but realistically it won't happen. Rust? There aren't many signets in the game, and where there are they usually are little more than a minor annoyance (like the Roaring Ethers you mentioned - just kill them again, won't take more than 5 seconds). Spinal Shivers? Interesting idea, but frankly it sure seems more worth it to just Daze the target (Broad Head Arrow, Technobabble), if you ever need such single-target shutdown.

For WAH, because of the quadrilateral formation heroes and henchmen form, chances are (even after agro-ing an enemy correctly), the majority of one’s team – or at least the most vulnerable casters – will fit inside the ward. If your allies are already going to be “balled up” and thus vulnerable to fire magic, why not use the ward and protect them, preventing them from dying?

There may not be as many signets as spells, but some of signets are very common for enemies to use. Many warriors will use Healing Signet, which if one can double the activation time can kill that enemy with ease.

As for Spinal Shivers, Dazing only affects spells, so one could only interrupt spells with the Broad Head Arrow and Technobabble skills. Rather, Spinal Shivers and Shivers of Dread interrupt all skills, proving to be much more useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

By the way I took the second build you posted on the Rotscale ZQ a few days ago. There's a massive energy problem. Two 25e spells with neither GoLE nor Glowing Ice to maintain energy, and two spells that don't return energy from Water Attunement. For long periods while staring Rotscale in the face, I found myself wanding him (funny though how much damage a maxed, customized wand does with EBSoH up).

If you went ahead and read the post, you would have read that the top two builds are meant for QUICK fights, since there are energy management issues. That’s why (1) the GoE builds were analyzed as well and (2) there are recommended skill substitutions if you have problems with e-management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozen Ele

Glyph of Energy
Over the course of those battles (the long ones), MoI only provided a few hundred damage and because of energy management, it was harder to cast high energy spells, which is why in longer battles, Glyph of Energy is more useful. In quick battles, dsp is actually hindered, so knowing the group sizes and estimated battle lengths are a must.

You picked Rotscale to test builds that are meant to be for quick fights, which is the worst way to represent the capability of the builds. Instead, you should have brought GoE, knowing that Rotscale has over 20,000hp (NM). Simply put, you used the build wrong and if you want to use it correctly, test it where the build was meant to be used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

PS: Mesmer snares = 50%, not 20-40%.

With Mesmer snares, I was looking at the AoE slow downs, not single targets. In all AoE Mesmer slow-downs (of which there is only one – Shared Burden), the slow down is 33%. The 50% slow-downs are against single foes ONLY, thus not being able to compete with water magic snares because they (1) do not provide as much slow down (2) only affect one target and (3) do not cause any damage, unlike AoE water snares.

Jeydra · Jan 13, 2010, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Some answers -

1. 108 DPS isn't much compared to the DPS of a physical. Compare the screenshots I gave with their 150 - 250 DPS. This is also the self-buffed case, and you'll see your damage skyrocket if you add in buffs your team can give you. Here is another example of how much damage a physical can do. Yes it's done by Mark of Pain, but MoP only triggers on physical damage, not elemental.

2. Water magic doesn't make Fire-based DoTAoE viable. In my same Rotscale run I counted how long it took before foes ran out of Maelstrom while under Deep Freeze. I counted two ticks of Maelstrom. If you consider that a lot, I rest my case.

3. You overestimate the importance of snares. Tell me, what is the big need for snares? What do you need it for? If you say you need it to snare Monks who're permanently running from your team, well YMLAD! does the same thing. If you say you need AoE snares to snare multiple Monks who're permanently running from your team, I'd challenge you to name an area where such mobs exist. If you say you need AoE snares to keep enemies in DoTAoE, then I'll say DoTAoE is an ineffective thing to do anyway most of the time (you'll immediately see the difference if you try out an AP-based build). What's more, Water isn't the only source of AoE snares because Meteor Shower and Churning Earth does the same thing (more on this later).

50% vs. 66% that is cripple vs. water snares is bogus, because Obsidian tanks use Grasping Earth as their snare, which is also 50% - and yet is very effective.

4. Air magic has AoE (Chain Lightning especially, Invoke Lightning secondary). Don't forget that AP boosts the recharge on Chain Lightning.

5. H/H balling up is a superb example of why Ward Against Harm isn't good. Do you prefer Savannah Heat hitting 8 characters while they're protected by Ward Against Harm, or do you prefer Savannah Heat hitting 2 characters who aren't protected by Ward Against Harm? If you answer the first, then I invite you to try it out against Forgewight HM (of course NM gave me enough problems). If you answer the second, then you'll just have argued that WAH is a bad skill.

6. Healing Signet is insignificant. Really, if some Warrior elects to use Healing Signet instead of attack, I'd happily let him do it. You are mixing things that are niceties vs. things that are actually necessary. I'll give you a better example. Rust is great vs. Signet of Judgment, Healing Signet, Signet of Rejuv, etc, but you can make do without it. If you don't have Rust then the worst that can happen is you take a few more seconds to finish off the mob. Hence it's nice to have, but not crucial. Compare something that is important to have: Frozen Soil. Against mobs who res fast and often (EotN Charr and Stone Summit springs to mind) then FS can not only save you lots of time, it can make the difference between you pressuring out the enemy and they pressuring you out. A big deal.

If you're still unconvinced, try these questions. Do you bring Rust on your bar to deal damage with, or do you bring it to shut down signets? How many times have you brought Rust to slow down Healing Signets, compared with how often have you brought Frozen Soil to shut down resses?

7. Your second build gave me enough energy problems on the way to Rotscale. Many times I'd find myself not casting but wanding because it's not worth spending the 15 energy to cast Ice Spikes on a single target, for example. This isn't the case for any other build I normally run. AP builds obviously have no problems, while any other build I have usually have enough energy management to keep casting (e.g. SF builds will have Glowing Gaze + GoLE + Fire Attunement, enough to spam away). I do not like the build, but go ahead and run it if you do.

By the way AP sucks against Rotscale, too.

8. I'm not saying that Water doesn't have the best snares in the game. It clearly does. I'm saying that the snares aren't necessary / useful. Where they actually are useful YMLAD more than suffices, as I mentioned in the Water Magic section of the guide proper.

PS: All enemies move faster than normal in HM, so they will all be KD'ed by Churning Earth. Also, AP provides snares, because it recharges YMLAD!.

PPS: You mentioned in your Spinal Shivers build that you're shutting down Monks / Mesmers / Elementalists, who all rely on spells not skills.

WhiteAsIce · Jan 13, 2010, 04:56 AM // 04:56

"YMLaD!" + Epidemic casted simultaneously = lolaoesnare

Malician · Jan 13, 2010, 10:26 AM // 10:26

As someone who PUGs the fun ZB/ZM (screw Prophecies) - I'd really like to see a good ele damage build. I don't trust anything based on Searing Flames. In my experience, the damage is terrible and most users run out of energy quickly (especially if the party never stops moving). I click on a mesmer or smite monk, they're casting nice armor ignoring damage; click on an SF ele, and they might as well be AFK.

(Okay, maybe I'm getting irrational here).

Any AP nuker is a *fine* additions to any party simply because people who know enough to go cap AP on an ele and create a build based on it tend to do a decent job of it. Unfortunately, no-one has it so I can't ping them a build based on it.

As it is, Elementalists and Rangers are the two classes I never invite into parties (except ER, of course, and someone a few days ago I saw advertising himself as an AP nuker). I simply don't know how to "fix" player's builds because I don't know anything good for them to run.

Advice?

HigherMinion · Jan 13, 2010, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malician

As someone who PUGs the fun ZB/ZM (screw Prophecies) - I'd really like to see a good ele damage build. I don't trust anything based on Searing Flames. In my experience, the damage is terrible and most users run out of energy quickly (especially if the party never stops moving). I click on a mesmer or smite monk, they're casting nice armor ignoring damage; click on an SF ele, and they might as well be AFK.

(Okay, maybe I'm getting irrational here).

Any AP nuker is a *fine* additions to any party simply because people who know enough to go cap AP on an ele and create a build based on it tend to do a decent job of it. Unfortunately, no-one has it so I can't ping them a build based on it.

As it is, Elementalists and Rangers are the two classes I never invite into parties (except ER, of course, and someone a few days ago I saw advertising himself as an AP nuker). I simply don't know how to "fix" player's builds because I don't know anything good for them to run.

Advice?

Well, as I usually try to orientate my team around MoP, if an ele wants something to run that is based on an element; it's generally Ice snares and wards.

Malician · Jan 13, 2010, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Well, as I usually try to orientate my team around MoP, if an ele wants something to run that is based on an element; it's generally Ice snares and wards.

I'm happy with 2-3 physicals in a team in most areas. That leaves several spots for other players, and I hate making players run boring builds like snare / cleaner.

Winterclaw · Jan 13, 2010, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Ward Against Harm? The Ward requires you to ball into it to work, and Fire magic is typically AoE - you want to scram out of it, not ball.

WAH might work with H/H if they are behaving, but it's a lot harder to get it to work with your average PUG that doesn't behave well. At least it halves the fire damage you take and if you are using a mantra, that's even less damage and you get energy back.

But I'd still not have everyone lingering around in SH. Now if WAH gave double armor against AoE DoTs, that might be different. It wasn't bad in Proph, but power creep has limited it.

For water magic in PvE, snares are an added benefit, but not the main reason I take a skill. In fact my normal builds might have 1 snare at most if any.

One thing I can think of for water is GOI+Steam+epidemic... but I haven't tested it out.

saitou · Jan 14, 2010, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malician

As it is, Elementalists and Rangers are the two classes I never invite into parties (except ER, of course, and someone a few days ago I saw advertising himself as an AP nuker). I simply don't know how to "fix" player's builds because I don't know anything good for them to run.
Advice?

I hate people that force you to run a certain build just to join a PUG. Perhaps you only help those who ask, but those people are out there. Most of them assume if you aren't running the flavor of the month then you must be a clueless idiot. Personally I enjoy the PUGs that test the versatility of my build and playing skills. Keeping a group of novices from wiping is usually more fun than putting up with pros that hate spending two seconds longer than the minimum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozen Ele

My argument for the use of water magic was above, in which I say:

Less is more. Make your point once, and with fewer words, and it will be more convincing. I agree with some of your points on the usefulness of water magic, and I can have fun using it (successfully) regardless of how many people agree with me. Those who are designated Advanced experts like the writer of this guide will usually have more people agreeing with them, but that doesn't stop you from playing however you enjoy most.

HigherMinion · Jan 14, 2010, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malician

I'm happy with 2-3 physicals in a team in most areas. That leaves several spots for other players, and I hate making players run boring builds like snare / cleaner.

Well yes. As long as it hurts we're all happy. Though generally all the damage would come from those 2-3 physicals ;p You know it makes sense.