Curse

Skuld · Dec 26, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

On the other hand, prot can't reduce grenth ;p

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 27, 2006, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Wow, skills that are nearly worthless or outclassed, we know there aren't dozens of those in other classes. If anything, dervishes need a bit of damage reduction, but they definitely DO NOT need a buff. Plenty of worthless skills in other professions that seem to go unnoticed, especially after nightfall.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Dec 27, 2006, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Ogami, Reaper's, at max scythe mastery gives about +50 damage, and IIRC the + damage on attack skills was armor ignoring, also IIRC this +50 damage is the highest of any +damage attack skill across every single class, making Reaper's one of the best attack skills in the game (atleast IMO) and also makes it a very viable attack against high armor enemies like Warriors or convicted dervs among other classes with their skills and such. that fact that it adds +50 armor ignoring damage on top of the high critical hit strength of the Scythe, makes reaper's incredibly powerful, and sadly, probably in for a nerf >.>

Skuld · Dec 27, 2006, 08:22 AM // 08:22

They aren't going to nerf something that is never used Kijik..

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Dec 27, 2006, 12:09 PM // 12:09

well let's hope so, cuz I sure love reducing casters from full hlth to nothing in seconds...

Saider maul · Dec 27, 2006, 08:08 PM // 20:08

screw a scythe i prefer mage-bombing.
I still say leave the Dervish alone.
There are alot of other classes that need adjusted before dervish req looking into.

Skuld · Dec 27, 2006, 09:24 PM // 21:24

No Saider, Grenth is at the top of the list.

kuwlij · Dec 30, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37

imo, [skill]Grenth's Grasp[/skill] is the most useless elites in the dervish line. [skill]Crippling Sweep[/skill] could give more crippling and since it's an attack skill it can't be stripped, like grenth's grasp. i think it shouldn't have been made elite.

Skuld · Dec 30, 2006, 07:55 PM // 19:55

[skill]Harrier's Grasp[/skill] too.

I suppose for people who don't own prophecies, they can run grenth's grasp plus called shot on a R/D?

Former Ruling · Dec 30, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

kuwlij - Grenth's Grasp is dumb, not because of Crippling Sweep, but because a non-elite [skill]Harrier's Grasp[/skill] totally outclasses it 10 fold...and isn't elite.

Dervishs, if anything, will be hit in the next skill balance due to some of the insane enchantments they have compared to other classes, and the fact that most of their used attack skills are low cost low recharge attacks with fast attack speeds (Warriors would sale their moms into slavery to have nice faster speed attacks - They already bring Crit Chop as a staple and Protector Strike saw heavy use awhile ago)

But I don't think they'll get hit too much.

EDIT: beat by Skuld on the first point :\

Seef II · Dec 31, 2006, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Well, looking through the skill listings, Dervish isn't terrible, but there are definitely a few skills that stand out as being much better than the others. I don't really forsee that many Dervish skills getting nerfed. A lot of them need buffing, actually, to see use in PvP (and some are already quite maligned in PvE).

Victorious Sweep - good damage, low recharge, self-heal
Avatar of Grenth - insane enchant hate
Wearying Strike - very good with Melandru
Ebon Dust Aura - this thing's just disgusting if buried in an enchant stack
Harrier's Grasp - outclasses Grenth's Grasp

Reaper's Sweep can put out some pretty disgusting numbers but the conditional deepwound and moderate recharge basically balance it out. You can afterspike with eremi te's/mystic though, but 50% is quite a sticking point. I quite like this skill myself and usually run it, but I've been favoring Wounding Strike lately so as to hit the 20% reduction in healing earlier.

Onslaught's fun, but the reduction in cost is iffy (and any more would be borderline crazy with R/Ds, but I think everyone's still hooked on thumpers) and the duration too short to seriously run. Do you even get a return on the 10 energy every time you use Onslaught? In my fights, I don't, unless I use Lyssa's Assault to power some more Wild Blows out.

Lyssa's Assault is fine, by the way. The damage is mediocre, and sure it's expensive at 10e, but if you have a dead slot, I don't think you can really complain about what is otherwise a cheap or free +5..20 damage.

The only difficult thing I can really think of that might need looking at is scythe damage in general, which gets absolutely disgusting at VoD (not even 16 scythe and you can see Wearying crit for 143 often) and with generous Wild Blow abuse. I'm not a fan of PvE bosses 2-hitting my squishies either.

ogami_ito · Jan 01, 2007, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Kijik, here is the thing about Reapers. I see it as the same function as Evicerate on a warrior, but its not nearly as good as Evicerate. I thought that Reaper does +40 at 16 scythe (not +50)...I'll have to look at that. But Evicerate can (and often is) used more often, and does deep wounds always. Now, a Derv using an Attack Elite is not nearly as durable as a warrior using an attack elite. Therefore, the attack elites should be considerably better. In the end, though, I guess that Reaper versus Eviserate is balanced if you consider that Reaper can hit up to three targets while Evicerate hits just one.

As it is, dervs can really do about as much damage, if not more, using other elites that offer more utility. Case-in-point: AoMelandru + Wearying. Yes that is a two-skill combo compared to Evic+Exec. Actually, we should consider it a 3 skill combo because there should also be Mystic Sweep or Chilling Sweep with this. But the utility of AoM+Wearying > Reapers + any other attack. Consider that AoM+Wearying can do +120 damage (plus DW) in the time that Reaper does just +40 and DW if target is less than 50% health.

I'm curious about the comparisons, so I will run it down here. Assuming 16 scythe, 3 enchants up, no energy probens, and always hitting, in 10 seconds. Also assuming that the goal is to give your target deep wounds while doing a lot of damage.

AoM+Wearying+Mystic Sweep= +240 damage +DW +200 hit points +no conditions (counting 1/2 damage for a third Mystic Sweep attack that would take place at 12 seconds)

AoM+Wearying+Chilling Victory= +185 damage +63 cold damage +DW +200hp +no conditions

Reaper + Mystic Sweep + Chilling Victory = +135 damage +63 cold damage +DW if opponent <50% health. (counting 1/2 damage for a third Mystic Sweep attack that would take place at 12 seconds)

ensoriki · Jan 01, 2007, 04:48 AM // 04:48

If Dervishes need a buff
then assassins need a miracle.....so hard to have any diversity with a sin since A-net Insist on making it a liniar class

Rits Can barely cast up all there summons now, regardless of communing and Restoration

Warriors are Out damaged, by a Sins DPS and Dervishes (altho sins have so much limitation...warriors can easily counter the sin)

Paragons are seen by many as crap

And you think Dervs need a buff.........your damn looney......worse then looney tunes

If anything everything else needs a buff(except necros) And Dervs just need mystic regen moved to mysticism.....Happy thats a buff...then you can move into wind prayers with no problem and get all your Good skills from wind prayers

Dervs using Avatar of Lyssa Already can make any of there skills insanely power

A D/n using wearying strike+ plague touch and then Vow of strength does strong damage aswell....what a dervish needs is just for wind prayers to be more useable instead of Mystic twister+sandstorm combo....

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jan 01, 2007, 04:52 AM // 04:52

ok I am beginning to see your point, but for now I think that specualtion for the battle between those two is sort of a moot point, until after the balance. I do see that it can be stronger, the one downside is that while AoM is not on, you don't want to use Wearying due to the weakness factor. So Reaper's is useful in that way that you can use it and use it. Well anyway gj explaining that there ogami.

Edit: Ensoriki, that made absolutely no sense, and you should just go ahead and delete that post there.. it is a jumble of off topic stupidity if I have ever seen it.. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

strcpy · Jan 01, 2007, 06:51 AM // 06:51

I usually carry Reaper's Sweep, more because I do not like waiting for the form to recharge. It's decent +damage and pretty much ensures almost any target that gets below 50% health dies *quick*. I suppose that it isn't the most efficient, however I find it more enjoyable.

At least in my experience I can not make a case that, overall, which one is best. AoM + Wearying Strike obviously is the highest DPS, however having to sit around with two useless skill slots while the form recharges hurts it quite a bit in the long run. Reaper's suffers from being too conditional, about half the targets drop before I get it off, the other half it really helps. The +50 damage is nice so I normally just use it there. Ebon Dust Aura can really mitigate melee damage if enemies clump, otherwise I'm running around trying to spread conditions and several spell casters do it MUCH better not having to close to melee range. Eh, at least in PvE I can not find a clear winner.

That being said, the skill rocks as a solo farmer. Farming Griffons in the Crystal desert it is trivial to get three being hit. They all pretty much get below 50% at the same time and it currently does deep wound every target it hits that meets it's requirements. Nothing like adding deep wound on three Griffons (hydra's, trolls, or whatever - I like the griffons but do all of them from time to time) in one swing. they drop *real* quick after that.

As I said in an earlier post - I expect some hard nerfs. When played well the Dervish is (in my opinion) currently one of the most powerful classes. I'm hoping their main concern is PvP where this is MUCH less true and the overpowered PvP skills are not the overpowered PvE ones. I still say that Dervishes are fairly balanced - they should be one of the biggest buffs to mesmers in GW (along with a searing flame ele), but alas mesmers still get little love and people do not want to use them. I know that even the PvE mesmers in some places totally shut down both of those classes - it only takes a skill or two, if humans were so inclined we would most likely be looking at few nerfs instead of some heavy ones. It will be interesting how Anet handles this next skill balance, I can not think of one I have been more interested in since release.

Mr_Cynical · Jan 01, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

I don't think Derv will get nerfed. Sure, it can stack up some serious damage, but enchantment removal makes a Dervish much less powerful. What's required isn't a nerf, but for players to learn to take an enchantment removal with them, the same way casters will always try to take a snaring hex or crippling attack to fend off Warriors.

The 'problem' with the Derv is that it introduces a whole new dynamic to the game , which Assassins and Ritualists did not (yeah, Sins and Rits added to the game, but they didn't change the game all that much in terms of strategy. a Sin is countered in many of the same ways as a Warrior for example). As soon as people learn to counter Dervishes instead of moaning about them, Dervs will go back to being 'just another class' instead of being 'OMG OVERPOWERED NERFLOL'

Shoitaan · Jan 04, 2007, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Personally I'd like a slight buff to windprayer skills but thats me

And am I the only one that finds the duration of vow of silence to be a tad too short? I don't run but apparently its good for that... but who cares? :/
I'm D/E and I rather use obsidian flesh than VoS

ensoriki · Jan 04, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Actually I agree with shoitaan....I think wind prayers should get a buff aswell hopefully to mystic healing

Servant of Kali · Jan 04, 2007, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kijik Oni Hanryuu

also IIRC this +50 damage is the highest of any +damage attack skill across every single class

Enraged Lunge does +80, and that's the first skill which came on my mind.

Nerf beastmasters.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jan 05, 2007, 12:19 AM // 00:19

oh yeh there's that one, enraged is so fun to use. But I think Reaper's comes after that as highest, and is definitely highest melee +damage attack.