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Old Dec 12, 2006, 09:32 AM // 09:32   #1
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Default Buff Dervish Skills

NO… not because the derv is weak. But some skills should be buffed so as to increase build diversity. Here are my suggestions.

[And yes… I’m spending too much time thinking about this game]

Scythe Mastery –

Lyssa's Assault – This skill might be worthwhile for a R/D…maybe. But for any derv build I can think of its no good. The energy gain is minimal and damage is weak. Changing the energy cost benefits the R/D more than the derv, so that would not work. How about changing this skill to say 5e, and say “If this skills hits, you steal 1…3…5 of target foes energy”. That would also be more in-tune with what Lyssa (ie God of Mesmers) is about.

Reaper’s Sweep – This skill is extremely outclassed by Eviserate. I know you cannot make a direct comparison between dervs and warriors. But this skill sets up that comparison as it is a “spike-pressure” type attack. I suggest changing this skill to say “If this attack hits, you deal +10...34 damage. If your target was below 25…50…70% Health, you also inflict a Deep Wound for 5...17 seconds.”

Attacker’s Insight and Onslaught – I don’t get it. There are no derv skills and few other attack skills that have more than 10e cost. If, as Guildwiki suggests, this is used with Lyssa’s Assault, then you are using two skill slots to gain a net 7 energy ( assuming Scythe is 16). Given that dervs have a decent energy management through Mysticism, this seems to be of little use. In fact, the derv class has several attack-based energy management skills, including Onslaught, Lyssa’s Assault, and Zealous Vow. These skills seem designed for R/D instead of for dervs. But R/Ds don’t need a lot of energy management skills. How about changing Attacker’s Insight to affect the next two attack skills, making it more usefull for Dervs? And for Onslaught, “Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5...17 seconds, your attack Skills recharge 25% faster and you attack 33% faster”

Pious Renewal – The energy management for this is OK I guess. At 12 Mysticism, you get back 6 energy when the enchant ends. The health gain on this is too little. In 8 seconds, you can cast and remove 4 enchants max ( maybe six if you remove them all at once with say, Mystic Sandstorm). So this elite skill can give around 48hp over 10 seconds, in addition to the 72hp from mysticism. That’s assuming you’re who skill-bar is filled with enchants. That’s pretty low healing for a situational, short-lived enchant. As a remedy, I suggest that the healing amount is upped. OR, better yet, change the skill to be like this: “Elite Enchantment Spell. For 8 seconds, whenever an Enchantment ends on you, you gain 0...2 Energy and 0...8 Health, and adjacent foes take 0-15 holy damage”.
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Old Dec 12, 2006, 11:56 AM // 11:56   #2
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There is a limited number of things a dervish can do. Based on your job what elite you take. Its not that these elites are no good they just do not fit into the job that the dervish has been assigned or there are better options.

If you are melee you will have an avatar or ebon dust cloak. If you are a caster derv you will have arcane zeal.

None of those elites fit into a primary dervish's job. So they should be made to work on x/D like they are now.
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Old Dec 12, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogami_ito
NO… not because the derv is weak. But some skills should be buffed so as to increase build diversity. Here are my suggestions.

[And yes… I’m spending too much time thinking about this game]

Scythe Mastery –

Lyssa's Assault – This skill might be worthwhile for a R/D…maybe. But for any derv build I can think of its no good. The energy gain is minimal and damage is weak. Changing the energy cost benefits the R/D more than the derv, so that would not work. How about changing this skill to say 5e, and say “If this skills hits, you steal 1…3…5 of target foes energy”. That would also be more in-tune with what Lyssa (ie God of Mesmers) is about.

Reaper’s Sweep – This skill is extremely outclassed by Eviserate. I know you cannot make a direct comparison between dervs and warriors. But this skill sets up that comparison as it is a “spike-pressure” type attack. I suggest changing this skill to say “If this attack hits, you deal +10...34 damage. If your target was below 25…50…70% Health, you also inflict a Deep Wound for 5...17 seconds.”

Attacker’s Insight and Onslaught – I don’t get it. There are no derv skills and few other attack skills that have more than 10e cost. If, as Guildwiki suggests, this is used with Lyssa’s Assault, then you are using two skill slots to gain a net 7 energy ( assuming Scythe is 16). Given that dervs have a decent energy management through Mysticism, this seems to be of little use. In fact, the derv class has several attack-based energy management skills, including Onslaught, Lyssa’s Assault, and Zealous Vow. These skills seem designed for R/D instead of for dervs. But R/Ds don’t need a lot of energy management skills. How about changing Attacker’s Insight to affect the next two attack skills, making it more usefull for Dervs? And for Onslaught, “Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5...17 seconds, your attack Skills recharge 25% faster and you attack 33% faster”

Pious Renewal – The energy management for this is OK I guess. At 12 Mysticism, you get back 6 energy when the enchant ends. The health gain on this is too little. In 8 seconds, you can cast and remove 4 enchants max ( maybe six if you remove them all at once with say, Mystic Sandstorm). So this elite skill can give around 48hp over 10 seconds, in addition to the 72hp from mysticism. That’s assuming you’re who skill-bar is filled with enchants. That’s pretty low healing for a situational, short-lived enchant. As a remedy, I suggest that the healing amount is upped. OR, better yet, change the skill to be like this: “Elite Enchantment Spell. For 8 seconds, whenever an Enchantment ends on you, you gain 0...2 Energy and 0...8 Health, and adjacent foes take 0-15 holy damage”.

Lyssa's assault - agree with you it makes for a poor e management, with little damage bonus. If you hit three mobs though with the AoE it gets better...Probably a PvE only skill - you have to be sure to hit 2-3 mobs to make it worth it. If you would actually steal the energy from the enemy it would be awesome (and very imbalanced for PvP ..the arenas would ROAR at it )


Reaper`s Sweep has the damage bonus of Executioner, the DW lenght of Eviscerate (double of the wearying strike) and can do AoE....The recharge is a bit long but its great as it is IMO.


Attacker insight is a weird one. It would probably work as a GoLE on attacks, only it would take a 15-25 e attack to make it worth it and there are no such attacks on the scythe line. Would work on other classes attacks but guess what ? other classes like wars or sins dont have 15-25 e attacks either and Concussion shot is much better handled by expertise...except if you take it on a Derv primary which is ....weird.

Onslaught might work on a x/D (war or sin) but it would be tricky to use. No point for a scythe. There are too many good elites for scythes: Reapers Sweep, Wounding Strike, Melandru, even Vow of strenght. And Sins have better elites too.

Pious Renewal is equivalent to a boost of 6 to the Mysticism bonus. It would take very specific build to make it work and it competes with Arcane Zeal which looks a lot better. Your suggestion of holy damage will make Dervs great targets for Smiting on with RoFs and guardians
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Old Dec 12, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39   #4
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I think Dervish skills are overpowered as it is, I just hope they don't get nerfed.
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Old Dec 20, 2006, 03:34 AM // 03:34   #5
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Dervish are far from overpowered compared to Necros and Ele's. Everything with a dervish is mainly to do with enchantments and their removal, but you can't really use it too your advantage. There needs to be better enchantments for a start.
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Old Dec 20, 2006, 05:37 AM // 05:37   #6
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I doubt it will happen - my guess is that dervs will get hit with the nerf bat pretty hard.

Like it or not (personally I would rather see some buffs but in the end do not really care) skill rebalances to increase build diversity generally knock the top skills down. Talk to some long term ele's if you want a long winded rant There was a time when necro's didn't out nuke the nukers, though we now have one spell that does nuke pretty good (and I expect a good nerf to it also). I also suspect some pretty major Paragon nerfage - especially after they even got a special swing of the nerf bat during what is typically a no-no time of the year for skill changes.

I have one of each class primary and most skills unlocked (and enough gold/skill points to get what I will need if I do not). I'm not attached that much to any one class, though I have to say I have *really* liked my dervish.
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Old Dec 20, 2006, 07:13 AM // 07:13   #7
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I believe that Dervs are pretty much perfectly balanced as it is. The only skills that might be nerfed are AoGrenth and Mystic Regen. I pray they don't nerf Mystic Regen though. How can you say that Dervs need better enchants though? And how can you compare them to necros and elementalists ? Yes, many necros can eat up dervs no sweat, but that does not make them overpowered.
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Old Dec 22, 2006, 05:25 AM // 05:25   #8
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Dervs are gonna get nerfed... hard.. first my silly reason, they aren't Anets fav touch rangers, blinding flash eles, or mesmers. now for the real reason.. They have become a jack of all trades..more so than the ranger or in some ways, mesmer.. They can go melee hate with ebon dust aura, and shutdown any target they assault, they can go spike using Reaper's Sweep+Chilling Victory, they can go anti caster in some ways using Vow of Silence, also completely anti prot monk using Grenth, can tank better than a warrior using AoB+Mystic Regen+Vital Boon+Conviction+a few other enchants, and above that, their critical strikes are one of the most deadly hits in the game.. They are likely to go the way of fire eles...I hope not, but... it is likely.
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Old Dec 22, 2006, 07:13 AM // 07:13   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kijik Oni Hanryuu
Dervs are gonna get nerfed... hard.. first my silly reason, they aren't Anets fav touch rangers, blinding flash eles, or mesmers. now for the real reason.. They have become a jack of all trades..more so than the ranger or in some ways, mesmer.. They can go melee hate with ebon dust aura, and shutdown any target they assault, they can go spike using Reaper's Sweep+Chilling Victory, they can go anti caster in some ways using Vow of Silence, also completely anti prot monk using Grenth, can tank better than a warrior using AoB+Mystic Regen+Vital Boon+Conviction+a few other enchants, and above that, their critical strikes are one of the most deadly hits in the game.. They are likely to go the way of fire eles...I hope not, but... it is likely.
OK. I don't agree with your silly reasons. But lets look at that first and ask a basic question...why does Anet love those classes (assuming they do?) I think because touch rangers show off the ranger's versatility and shows off how different classes combine well. Mesmer's are just a really unique class to GW and should be loved. Blinding Flash Eles...don't know why they are loved.

Second, just FYI, I think a derv spike is really Avatar of Melandru>Wearying Sweep> (Mystic Sweep and/or Chilling Victory)

Third of all, I believe that dervs are clearly meant to be sort of a Thumper replacement or, in general, a replacement for R/W, E/W, and M/W in what they are capable of. . They have a lot of diversity in builds, but they need to specialize and each specialization is not as good as combinations from other classes in most circumstance (EXCEPT FOR THUMPERS and anti-prot monk builds...Derv dps builds and spike builds are definitly better in performance and utility than Thumper builds). Dervs cannot really tank better than a warrior in DoA. Maybe almost equal in FoW though. They are not as good at anti-melee as mesmers, who can not only blind meleers, but can also cause tremendous armor-ignoring damage. But that's apple's and oranges...Mesmer anti-anything is sort of spikey and reactive. Derv anti-anything builds are more dps oriented.

Derv's are currently the best anti-prot monk class. And if anywhere they get nerfed, it may be here. Or maybe not...maybe Anet wants there to be an anti-prot class in order to encourage other types of healers.
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Old Dec 22, 2006, 02:23 PM // 14:23   #10
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Lyssa's is fine for a R/D, or to keep an Onslaughter up, or just an extra free attack for filler. Lots of skills have that low damage, that one has a more useful side effect under certain circumstances though :]

Pious is made for renewable sandstormers, its fine. I do agree that mystisism and Renewal's health gain should be upped, atm its just an inconveniance Don't make it like in the preview, but make it worth something ^^

You can't compare Evicerate to Reaper's Sweep, the former is for spiking, the latter is a v. high dmg attack (most bonus damage available)? I don't know if it needs changing, its just a bad comparison you made.
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Old Dec 22, 2006, 06:49 PM // 18:49   #11
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dervish are damn strong as they are and i too belive some skills are overpowered and are going to get nerfed. i hate dervish, but even i dont want them nerfed (except 1 skill)....they are great the way they are....stack enchantments then take them off for condition spikes, damage spikes and healing...in my opinion ebon dust aura is kind of over powered because it leaves warriors assassins and rangers useless unless they plague touch the blind to the dervish. even if the dervish is blind they can stil do damage which is what makes it over powered (my opinion...)
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Old Dec 22, 2006, 07:08 PM // 19:08   #12
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lol, if you think blind is overpowered, you should probably stop talking ;p
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Old Dec 22, 2006, 09:47 PM // 21:47   #13
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skuld for once we agree. lol.

Seriously. the Dervish does have a few slightly out of balance skills which will probably be addressed in the near future. But all in all they are a very balanced and versital class.

If you think the mage bomb is over powered why did you stand there. The PBAoE of mage bombing takes some skill to make it hit properly and the conditions are nice until you run into a RC monk.
If you think the scythe/avatars are over powered look again. only 1 do i consider to be slightly unbalanced and that is avatar of lyssa.

remember this is a frontline melee class so they do need to be durable.

theres alot of other classes and skills that need " nerfed " before they look to adjust the Dervish line.
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Old Dec 23, 2006, 01:53 AM // 01:53   #14
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If so, then why is Lyssa never used, anywhere, yet Grenth runs rampant in GvG and the HoH?
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Old Dec 23, 2006, 02:00 AM // 02:00   #15
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i dont think blind is overpowered, i think the fact that a warrior or assassin has no way to counter it....like this for example...a dervish with a icy scythe of fortitude runs up to a warrior with ebon dust aura on and uses crippling sweep. now, in 1 skill your crippled and blind. the dervish adds a few more enchants and we have burning, bleeding and weakness on top of 2x 60+ earth damage and 1x 50+holy damage.....all of which dont require being able to see. even with a monk backing you up, as soon as its removed, its back on again.
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Old Dec 23, 2006, 02:45 AM // 02:45   #16
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you seem to be thinking RA terms

get your mesmer to train the ebon user when he recasts
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Old Dec 23, 2006, 08:24 AM // 08:24   #17
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ogami my silly reason were called silly for a reason..they aren't meant to be taken serious, they are just..well...silly
and AoM+Wearying doesn't add +50 armor ignoring damage now does it?
I don't even understand the whole thumper replacement thing you had going there, so I'm not even going to respond to it..

BTW Skuld, my guild is still recruiting it's last ten or so members, so if you are interested drop me a PM, and I'll give you the details.
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Old Dec 23, 2006, 08:40 AM // 08:40   #18
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The Dervish can be very powerful when their enchantments are on.. other then that they are horribly soft. Even though stripping a Dervish's enchantments may give the Dervish a quick health and energy boost it will soon kill them as enchantments are their replacement for armor.

But thats like saying an Elementalist is overpowered because you don't move out of their AoEs. Sure its possible to survive standing in an AoE just as its possible to kill a Dervish with his enchantments on but its a lot easier just to move out of the AoE or strip the enchantments off of a Dervish.
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Old Dec 24, 2006, 03:45 AM // 03:45   #19
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Several questions / comments:
1. why is AoLyssa overpowered?
2.Kijik: "AoM+Wearying doesn't add +50 armor ignoring damage now does it?" What are u refering too?
3. Thumpers are for DPS + some KD, but are less durable than warriors. Ders can be for DPS and lots of conditions, but are less durable than warriors
4. Dervs lose enchants they just re-aply. Need a lot of enchant removal to make them soft. To strip a derv, typically you would need to hit with an edenial attack at the same time as an enchant strip.
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Old Dec 26, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18   #20
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I said lyssa would be the one i would consider overpowered if there was 1 avatar that was over powered. their spike ability is a touch to much at times.
I personally have used lyssa and hit for over 200dmg on 2 consecutive swings. granted prot can reduce it greatly, blind can prevent it but nothing else in the game hits that hard unless your target has frenzy on.

aside from that. dervish are fine as is.
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