Curse

Paperfly · Dec 27, 2006, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Assassins and Dervishes just have to be built with specific goals in mind, that's all.

The only thing holding back Dervishes in PvE is the fact that people insist on putting Healing rather than Protection Prayers on their monk heroes. It only takes two copies of Reversal of Fortune on the team to eliminate any survivability issues and significantly improve your energy flow.

If you really want to tank, there's always Earth Magic (not Prayers) - 9-10 points is all you need to keep up Armor of Earth and Stoneflesh Aura - but why bother? Tanks are an outdated concept outside of some pretty specific team builds, and you've got more useful options available: You can go raw scythe damage, unconditional spell damage/burning (via the Mysticism AoEs), or condition-spreading specialising in Weakness and Blinding to mitigate damage.

***

Now, things are trickier for Assassins. You can build them to take down a single target per fight easily enough - just run a 5-slot combo with plenty of built-in disruption and a couple of skills to keep yourself "clean" from hexes/conditions. The problem there is your recharge times: you're sacrificing a lot of sustained DPS for an ability that most groups don't really need.

However, there's a couple of fast-cycle builds you can use to rampage through every squishy on the monster team: {e}Assassin's Promise -> Black Spider Strike -> Twisting Fangs gives you possibly better DPS against soft targets than even a Dragon Slash warrior (take Expose Defenses for emergency use!). A safer option is Jagged (or Unsuspecting) Strike -> Wild Strike -> Critical Strike while under {e}Way of the Assassin... But that really requires something like an Orders necro to be used at maximum efficiency.

The problem with any PvE 'sin - and it's one that I think even the Assassin's Promise build doesn't definitively resolve - is this: Why wouldn't you play a Warrior instead? They've got equal-or-better sustained DPS, higher survivability, and can easily run any of the Assassin movement skills on a /A secondary.

ensoriki · Dec 29, 2006, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Because you can
1. Actually tank just as well with a sin as a warrior going A?D Way of perfection+critical defenses+critical eye add siphon strength/way of the assassin if you want guaranteed criticals Wway of perfection heals you, critical defenses keeps you from taking damage often, critical eye synerges with both these skills and gives extra energy with way of the assassin put in you will have critical defenses on about All the time...and if your smart it should wear off after its recharged back

however attributes can get fairly fin BUT you can do this

8 earth prayers + mystic regen...yum -_-
9+2 critical strikes (11)
10+2 dagger mastery (12)
DA whatevers left
which makes the build
Mystic regen,critical eye,critical defenses, Expose defenses/mark of instability
black lotus strike horns of the ox falling spider twisting fangs

you like that dont you....thats the Asspanda build

yes im perfectly aware sins shouldnt tank, however this allows you to just walk up to a warriors face degen him up and walk right out since you have critical defenes + mystic regen, he cant hit you and when he does you heal it off

Paperfly · Dec 30, 2006, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

you like that dont you....thats the Asspanda build

Er, no, it's horrible.

Never mind that the lack of a res sig automatically disqualifies you from any PvE consideration; three pips of regeneration plus one attack-evasion skill doesn't make you a tank.

You're spending a lot of effort just to be strictly worse than a Mending whammo with the two Ripostes!

Darkpower Alchemist · Dec 30, 2006, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muk Utep

I've played both an assassin and a dervish. Here are my personal opinions:

Assassin:
You can do a lot of damage and some decent conditions, but the concept is a bit fragile. Low armor, few defense options (and most of them are very clumsy) and you're going to have a lot of trouble since so many enemies in the game either have avoidance stances or will blind/cripple you. The attack chains can be devastating, but are easily cancelled and often require you to use 3-5 skills without any interruption. You'll feel great when you complete a chain and take down an enemy by yourself, and feel lame when the next 4 enemies mess it up and make you look useless. Can be quite powerful in PvP, but is definitely not among the most powerful PvE professions.

Dervish:
Has a lot of potential, being able to both put out scary damage, and tank quite decently. They can achieve great armor and crazy regen with just a few skills, and they have an innate "cleave" ability with a scythe which is very easily utilized in PvE. It's not difficult to make sure that most of your attacks hit two or three enemies, and the dervish has a lot of different abilities, ranging from condition spreading to healing, AoE damage, and good party support. Definitely my favorite of the two, and much more popular in both PvE and PvP.

Assasins and dervish have the same AL, so from jump that being softer crap is way off. Rangers,Assassins,and Dervish all have AL 70, so we can't go making like the armor is poor on a sin.

What makes assassins have difficulty is the outrageous number of idiots that think that teleporting into the center of the mob to attack would be so cool.

When they realize that it ONLY works on paper, or PvP, then assassins are useable in PvE. their evasion skills are what make them, so that really isn't a problem either. They are not tanks, as neither are rangers. Sins need to realize their place in the whole PvE equation, in order to be effective.

Hit,kill,run,repeat.

Dervish can be monsterous in PvE, whether as a tank or a secondary melee type. Melandru pwned when I travelled to ToA. No conditions and dealing holy damage took the wind out of the whole area. I felt as if it was standing still while I passed.

Also,take into consideration that secondary pofessions will also make or break these 2 professions depending on if/when the secondary is used.

[skill=big]Chilling Victory[/skill]

This is perfect for mob scenarios. This should be on almost every dervish's PvE skill bar.

[skill=big]Death Blossom[/skill]

Same concept, but shorter range and weapon range. Also awesome for a PvE sin.

Energy wise, a zealous mod and someone willing to be patient will get far with either profession. Counting them out is a bad move early in their existence.

Firus Cutthroat · Mar 24, 2007, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Now don't get me wrong Dervish can be used good but If your worried about getting outcasted by being an assassin. It's a thing of the past, because all the noob assassins dropped em and moved to being a Dervish. sure theres the occassional douchebag but If you have a decent build you'll get a complement for "being the only good assassin" once in a while. haha

Div · Mar 25, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

What is this PvP and guild battles thing you guys keep mentioning? Dervishes, imo, are better suited for PvE play (which is what I specialize in). Not only does it allow you to act as some sort of "tank" in a pug, it is also fairly good for running (better than warrior generally) and can serve to farm large crowds of enemies as well. Sins are fun to play, but they're not exactly the most useful in PvE, because of their low armor (with no armor bonuses like derv enchs) and also because single target spike damage is less wanted than AoE damage with tankage power.

Shuuda · Mar 25, 2007, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Since I play both proffessions, I refuse to say that one is better than the other, remembering that both have different job. But, why not try combine them together, there are A/D Scythe builds for PvE (The idea is to have high crit rate to do lots of damage) and you can just as easily use shadow stepping in a D/A.

Narayanese · Mar 25, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

I find dervish slightly more fun to play.

Survivability is better on an assassin, since you don't need to be in the front all the time to dish out an acceptable amount of damage - the high-damage chains and teleports (recall, return, death's retreat) allow you to minimize time on the front if needed.

More damage on attack skills and better energy management (myticism does not even cover the costs for the enchantments used) makes assassins do better damage - if the emenies are spread out. Often they are quite close, so the scythe AoE kicks in, turning dervishes into strong damagedealers. On the whole I think assassins and dervishes are similar in damage ouput.

Avatar of Melandru is wonderful in Prophecies, no more blind and weakness!

If you like the paladin concept then earth prayers does the same role as healer prayers on a W/Mo, but a bit better. But since both assassins and dervishes have 4 pips they can take any defensive or utility line they want, for example earth magic as paperfly suggested. Dervishes need fewer skill slots for attack skills.

In factions:
Afflicted sould explosions > both assassins and dervishes.

This is a problem with half the assassin elites, since you are forced to fight through factions to get them.
I heard they will nerf the explosions in the coming hard mode update. Better late than never...

Darth Kukulkan · Mar 26, 2007, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Assassins are way better : they do more damage, they can event deal great damage in pve, it's juste the opposite builds as in pvp (fast recharge daggers, way of perfection, many crits) => works well.
Tanking is as strong as derviches : refer to nighstalker insigna, same as dervs with their enchant, plus avoiding attackes due to critical defenses or other (people who play boa in pve then return back make me really laugh... as in pvp though)
In pvp, common wammos reconverted play BoA build, but thier is many other powerfull combos.
I hate derviches, who deals less damage, are just a crappy concept with their enchant (I played it, the damage is 1/3 of any elementalist) but I admit that they have an enormous survability in solo with their signet of pious light... even over used by other classes.
Makes me think that dervs will be nerfed soon (

) and assassins are on a way of... perfection (lol) and boost of all their skills

Darth Kukulkan · Mar 26, 2007, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Assassins are way better : they do more damage, they can event deal great damage in pve, it's juste the opposite builds as in pvp (fast recharge daggers, way of perfection, many crits) => works well.
Tanking is as strong as derviches : refer to nighstalker insigna, same as dervs with their enchant, plus avoiding attackes due to critical defenses or other (people who play boa in pve then return back make me really laugh... as in pvp though)
In pvp, common wammos reconverted play BoA build, but thier is many other powerfull combos.
I hate derviches, who deals less damage, are just a crappy concept with their enchant (I played it, the damage is 1/3 of any elementalist) but I admit that they have an enormous survability in solo with their signet of pious light... even over used by other classes.
Makes me think that dervs will be nerfed soon (

) and assassins are on a way of... perfection (lol) and boost of all their skills.
==> choose Assassin, you won't be disapointed.

ghostkai · Mar 27, 2007, 04:43 AM // 04:43

as long as u play an assassin like an assassin, and not like a waamo, u'll love the class, i zoomed thru NF with my sin easily...

assassin's promise build ftw

and it's fair to say most noob sins went to derv when NF came out

zling · Mar 29, 2007, 10:19 PM // 22:19

it pretty much comes up to this:
Dervish is better for general PvE
Assassin is better for boss farming
both have their use in PvP

ensoriki · Mar 31, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

not really comes to this actually zing

if your playing factions storyline dont play the assassin play another class

play derv for nightfall

play assassin for every other campaign with ease