Curse

Mekkakat · May 09, 2007, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

I in no way am trying to convince you dervishes are superior or inferior, nor am i trying to argue your opinions. I am trying to point out that basing ones opinions on "tests and recordings" is simply not sensible. You act as if the class can be proven as inherently bad (or flawed) through quantifiable data. Which it cannot.

If the 5 points i created did not point to that fact, then i guess i am not very good at making a point. I don't care if you did or did not say that you think something is objective or subjective... My point, once again, was that the testing you believe to be conducting in an "educated and fair" manner is in fact meaningless. Attempting to "quantify" class effectiveness is in actuality your attempt at objectifying something that cannot be objectified, that is why i state that you insist on pusing subjective matter as objective matter.

It is like looking at two books, completely identical, text is completely identical, size, content, EVERYTHING about them is identical, except for one thing. One has a black cover, the other has a white cover. Now supposed you recorded how many people preferred one color over the other. Then finding that more people like the black covered book, you came to the conclusion that the white book was somehow "flawed" and inferior to the black book. Does that not seem silly?

Yes, by all means that is a perfect example. With that in mind, the overal effectiveness of a class in Guild Wars cannot be quantified by tracking how many players are effective with dervish builds. That recording *itself* is an opinion according to what you hold as "effective". And that will ultimatly lead you to any conclusion you already held in terms of each individual recording. The example provided is in regard to the fact that this game is based on balance, that all aspects will have some sort of counters to them, and some builds will be great, and others will not be so great. Quantifying rational is just not sensible for a game based on balance...

Again, out of the 5 points i had previously laid out, the point *should* have been that your "testing" to prove your point are flawed and unnecessary. The assasins saw the SAME trend. Being nit-picked because many many many players were not good at the class. So the overall community feel towards the class was fairly hostile. Then as builds became more known, and their usefulness was being explored in PvP, they all of a sudden became a fairly common staple in all aspects of PvP...

In the end, overall player effectiveness does not equal overall class effectiveness. Stop trying to quantifiy it.

cheers.

ah i see what you mean now, i must have just been confused by what you had meant in the last post. this game is entertainment, these post are for either information or entertainment. im not trying to hassle you all, nor preach some weird doctrine on what class suck/rock, just entertaining myself while getting others opinions about it, and (hopefully) entertaining them with something to talk about other than skill changes and hardmode. this post was just something to get the brain thinking and critically observing the class... for fun. you guys said you cant change someone, true, but you can affect them, which is an overall long run similar, and even moreso, at least the community is talking out together. 2 books, one with white/black covers, good analogy, but im looking on the inside of the book i.e. the parts that make it up, not say.. the armor. yeah, sins had it rough, that was poor usage of the entire class itself, in other words, people used them like garbage tanks, running about dying left and right. it took time for them to find their place, and i think the same thing is happening to most dervish players (especially the inexperienced ones), for example, the 3 trillion 130hp dervs in RA/TA. thats just silly, and i think the community needs to see that it stops. warriors get bashed all the time, but people that love them (like me) put out threads to point out the weaknesses, to, in the end, fix them. thats all, just fun, critical thinking, to hopefully jog the minds of the novice to take the words of the skilled that have posted so far, and utilize those skills.

ruadvin · May 09, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Like any other class, as I believe has been stated before, a class's usefulness is based more on the expertise and ability of the player, not necessarily the build they're running. However, even a good player can be completely shut down by one of its several counters. To counter avatar of lyssa, prot spirit covered quickly by another ench works well. Slow an avatar of grenth user to avoid its ench removal properties(then again, slowing can affect many derv users). Just as a few examples.

I've noticed the OP repeatedly stating that one of the downsides a derv has to face that a warrior does not, is that there are more counters to a derv than a warrior. While a warrior only really needs to worry about anti-melee (mostly), a derv must also watch for anti-casting/interrupting. In a certain view, however, this can be one of its virtues. It requires several different anti-whatevers to completely shut down a derv. So it would require more people to completely shut down a derv. This is just conjecture, since I've rarely played any of the higher-pvp types, such as gvg.

Also, the OP tested a lot in RA/TA? Personally, I don't think RA is a good area to test anything, though several people use it to try out new builds or ones they are unfamiliar with. Granted, there are several people (such as the OP'er, apparently) that are good players that like to play RA, though I have no idea why. I find playing in AB with guild-mates to be a far more effective way to test new builds in a team environment. Again, granted, there are a lot of scrubs in PUG's that just should learn to play AB, but at least you're with people you know. I'm assuming starting in TA with a guild-group is effective as well, but I rarely play that as well.

Relating to my first point, each skill is entirely situational. Most skills have more varied situations in which they are useful than others. While heart of fury is useful in nearly any dervish build, something like sandshards is not (going back to what Isilzha was talking about). While not highly useful in most cases, in very specific cases it can be devestating. In case you were wondering, Isilzha is in my guild, and I have gone into various pvp games with him on several occassions. While I healed him as my monk in an AB game, I watched him single handedly kill 4 touch rangers in approximately 5 seconds... with just sandshards. You can say how newb the touch ranger build is, but they are, in general, difficult for several melee characters to kill. And, shown by the fact they did not actually attack me (the monk) shows how newb-ish these particular touchers were, you cannot say they were using some broken toucher build... how difficult can it be to screw up a touch ranger build, anyway? Now, sandshards is too situational for my tastes and I never use it outside of NF pve (darn those masses of rangers...), but it works for him. And while the OP assumed Isilzha was angry in his posts, this was only because of his aggressive debating style. In a forum such as this, aggressiveness is often seen as anger.

Lastly, I think many dervish players try to cover too much with their builds. If you're making a spike build, make a spike build. Don't try to take mystic regen, and all those other survival skills if you're trying to spike. Yes, one or two skills to keep yourself alive and take some pressure off the healer is useful, but if most of your skill bar is devoted to keeping yourself alive, you're not a spiker. Avatar of lyssa with heart of fury, crippling sweep, mystic sweep, and eremite's attack works well. Plus, that leaves 3 more skill slots open for you to do with as you please.

My two cents.

Mekkakat · May 09, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

great post Ruadvin. everything you said made great sense

. Sandshards is a lil too conditional for me as well, although i admit to using it a good bit in early PvE NF as well :P. RA is a great test because of the high amount of high ranked PvPers that sync. you see, you can time the enter button just right to get an entire group of people that you know.. sorta unfair.. but its done a lot. also.. just having one or two good players on your team is really all it takes for 10 wins, and if thats the case, more glad points the merrier. thats why i would even test there, because the newb/noob (difference)/experienced player ratio is fairly balanced. thats all. it makes for a great blind study, where you can get a multitude of results, based on your skill knowledge and ability to multi task

. but you're right, every skill IS situational, and for that i should appologize to Isilzha, because regardless of mechanics, skill choice, or anything else, if it works for you.. who cares? :P nice points made in the last paragraph as well. thanks again Ruadvin

ghostkai · May 09, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

just to refer to the arguments on the first to pages regarding a derv 1v1'ing a warrior. taking EDA vs a warrior is as unfair as taking VoS vs an ele. lets play fair gang ^_^ not to mention 1v1 proves nothing (rock, paper, scissors)

Isil`Zha · May 09, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Oh good, Ruadvin touched on the shutdown issue in the same way I was, but I can still go into more depth:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruadvin

I've noticed the OP repeatedly stating that one of the downsides a derv has to face that a warrior does not, is that there are more counters to a derv than a warrior. While a warrior only really needs to worry about anti-melee (mostly), a derv must also watch for anti-casting/interrupting. In a certain view, however, this can be one of its virtues. It requires several different anti-whatevers to completely shut down a derv. So it would require more people to completely shut down a derv. This is just conjecture, since I've rarely played any of the higher-pvp types, such as gvg.

While it's conjecture on his part, I can confirm that this is definitely true.

Yes, a Dervish has to worry about anti-caster and anti-melee - however, unlike a Warrior, as Ruad pointed out, one or the other will not completely shutdown a Dervish. Blind, and a Warrior is shutdown. Blind a Dervish though, and they still have plenty of options for doing spike or pressure damage, or snaring.

Sand Shards was one, but there's plenty others. Heart of Holy Flame, Aura of Thorns, Dust Cloak, Mirage Cloak, Staggering Force, Veil of Thorns, ending Heart of Fury, Mystic Sandstorm... need I go on? I didn't even finish and I have 9 reasons a Dervish is not shut-down by anti-melee. Avatar of Dwayna negates all hex-based melee shutdown, and Avatar of Melandru is immune to blind.

Like wise, anti-caster hexes, conditions, and/or spells won't completely shutdown a Dervish either. Most of the time all their enchants will already be up, ending them will only prove beneficial to the Dervish (save for Fleeting Stability, but I only ever use that for doing Drok runs.) Doesn't stop them from dishing out their damage.

So really, a Warrior can't handle conditions and hexes better, it's the other way around. Again, as Ruad pointed out, you need several characters to effectively shutdown a Dervish completely (or a mixed Anti-caster Anti-melee, but those always turn into being a Jack of All Trades, Master of None.) But there are many ways you can completely shut-down a Warrior - the Warrior has its melee to deal damage and conditions, once that's disabled, the Warrior is shutdown.

Somewhat continuing on that, is my reasoning for taking Sand Shards.
I never take it expecting to do what I mentioned above, that's nice when that happens, but that's not the purpose of it - I actually don't have a sole purpose for it.

1) It's a cheap, long-lasting enchantment (lasts 30 sec. instead of the typical 20 for Dervish enchantments), this makes it easier for me to keep just one more enchantment up for skills like Mystic Sweep or Mystic Regen if I happen to take it - also as a cover if the situation arises.

2) Anti-Anti-Melee. What's great about it is it works against almost every kind of melee hate - stances, enchantments that block, blind, Shadow Form, ect. Most people don't expect me to keep doing damage to them. Yes, I know it's not a great deal of damage, but it can make a difference (and that difference shoots up exponentially when more targets to miss.) However, if I'm fighting a Warrior, and we're both blinded for 10 seconds, during that 10 seconds the Warrior is doing zero damage, and with just him in range, I've continued to deal out 100+ damage.

3) I mostly fill an empty slot with it when I don't really need anything else. IE: No skills that would provide as much synergy to the build as SS usually does (through direct use of its effects, or just to have enchanted status up.)

Lastly, I should clarify that I'm fine with you not liking a class as per your opinion. I for instance, don't really care to play as my Warrior - I know that may seem targeted to this thread, but it's not. My first character's a Warrior, I just find the other classes more enjoyable to play. I think the Warrior's play style is too linear and... non-interactive with all their passive defense and damage. However, you don't see me saying I don't like them due to flaws or that I see them as not really necessary. That part should be based on facts, and you made it seem as though you don't like Dervishes because you "proved" that the class itself was broken somehow. Others I think have covered that part sufficiently though so I don't see a need to go into it further.

Mekkakat · May 09, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

this is also dependent on your build Isil.. i mean.. you can only have 8 skills, and you're going to need to rez... so more like 7. i understand a derv has some things they can do while hexed/blinded, and yeah, it COULD take more than one to fully keep them at bay i.e. not really dealing damage, but for some moves like Thorns, people need to hit you ect.. if someones shutting you down, its to avoid you altogether, not to just onslaught you for no reason. dervs do have a lot of cool choices as to how to set up, but in full general use, a warrior can consistently deal damage, continue fighting, and endure a lot more than a dervish can, without even needing to heal himself. in an example, i often hear complaints from monks/rits saying how annoying it is to heal a derv, and how most act like tanks, and really cant, unlike a warrior, who they rarely have to heal, or on the extreme version of that, monks who complain that their dervs dont deal enough damage cause all the do is heal. this is the common problem with most dervs, and while im sure the better dervs find peace between the two poles, its more often than not an entire community problem, similar to the horrid healing hands wammos, and strange tanking assassin. 80al (100 physical) is a lot to cut through, and while not being invincible, or unmatched (by way of skills;conviction/SoR), it does allow more room for damage dealing skills/utility, which is why warriors are still (and probably always will be) the higher regarded class. not saying one is better ect, just used more/more reliable ect. situational circumstances/player skill will always always always be the number one key to where all of this falls ect, but of course, im talking strictly in generalities.

Mekkakat · May 09, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Lastly, I should clarify that I'm fine with you not liking a class as per your opinion. I for instance, don't really care to play as my Warrior - I know that may seem targeted to this thread, but it's not. My first character's a Warrior, I just find the other classes more enjoyable to play. I think the Warrior's play style is too linear and... non-interactive with all their passive defense and damage. However, you don't see me saying I don't like them due to flaws or that I see them as not really necessary. That part should be based on facts, and you made it seem as though you don't like Dervishes because you "proved" that the class itself was broken somehow. Others I think have covered that part sufficiently though so I don't see a need to go into it further.

Warrior is by no means superior to anything in any way as far as skills necessarily, but in utility/damage dealing, its second to none imo. dervs have a slower, generally weaker spike if any (build dependent), but are sweet pressure.. although warriors are even better pressure (imo). the DPS output is still unmatched as far as warriors go, especially on a line of consistency, and as far as bursting, possibly a sin could compare, but their fragile existence calls for immediate worry as far as team use. the only other class to ever come close to the warriors DPS (straight numbers talk) is its ranged brother, the paragon, although the derv has a nasty critical (which is factored in at 16 weapon mastery, although the critical ratio does not outweigh the low end damage of a scythe). the "proven" parts to my statements in the OP were by NO WAY meant to say the minds of the dervish community from playing theirs, but to explain MY reasoning, and possibly what could be my flaws in judgment, although most test are still holding strong in all arenas/pve. this is basically (again) a way of me expressing my issues with the dervish class/community from a concerned point of view, not a preaching, "you suck" attitude. i wouldnt stand for it if the Warriors did it

i just dont see how you guys got groups in pve though.. no offense, and its not me that feels this way, but everyone seemingly hates dervs on their team. i was farming LB/SS today, and my team would NOT let me add a derv.. and we were in WURMS. i was like.. uh.. why not?? and all they could say was because dervishes are usually arrogant, and worse than that, a bad profession. (and just so you all know, i defended you along with another member of the team.. who i think played derv, but was using a monk at the time). i ended up adding the derv, basically because i convinced them he "had to be good" based on his black ancient armor (talking hot air obviously), and they were like "... fine". he gets in the group, i give him a "hi!", and he pings his Mystic Regen/Faithful/Vigor bar with Balth and two attacks.. Victorious and Wild Blow, no rez, and the team bailed. only 2 members stayed. so yeah.. just ONE example, by no means the ENTIRE outlook.. but its looking more down than up to be honest. i cant be the ONLY person that sees this discrimination/bad skill use combo out there playing GWs

.

Isil`Zha · May 09, 2007, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

this is also dependent on your build Isil.. i mean.. you can only have 8 skills, and you're going to need to rez... so more like 7. i understand a derv has some things they can do while hexed/blinded, and yeah, it COULD take more than one to fully keep them at bay i.e. not really dealing damage, but for some moves like Thorns, people need to hit you ect.. if someones shutting you down, its to avoid you altogether, not to just onslaught you for no reason. dervs do have a lot of cool choices as to how to set up,

True, but the Dervish has so many of these choices, that one or two almost always find their way into a build.

Quote:

but in full general use, a warrior can consistently deal damage

How? A blind warrior does zero damage, always. There is no way around this without dipping into their secondary (hello Whammo.)

Quote:

continue fighting, and endure a lot more than a dervish can, without even needing to heal himself.

And? The Dervish's attacks hit harder, much harder. Dervish's self heal is passive half the time anyway, so they don't have to stop.

Quote:

in an example, i often hear complaints from monks/rits saying how annoying it is to heal a derv, and how most act like tanks, and really cant, unlike a warrior, who they rarely have to heal, or on the extreme version of that, monks who complain that their dervs dont deal enough damage cause all the do is heal. this is the common problem with most dervs, and while im sure the better dervs find peace between the two poles, its more often than not an entire community problem, similar to the horrid healing hands wammos, and strange tanking assassin.

...why did we come full circle to the bad Dervish players? Remember, the Assassin was seen as having the exact same problem for a while too.

Quote:

80al (100 physical) is a lot to cut through, and while not being invincible, or unmatched (by way of skills;conviction/SoR), it does allow more room for damage dealing skills/utility, which is why warriors are still (and probably always will be) the higher regarded class. not saying one is better ect, just used more/more reliable ect. situational circumstances/player skill will always always always be the number one key to where all of this falls ect, but of course, im talking strictly in generalities.

The reason that the Warrior will be higher reguarded overall is because a lot of the Warrior's strengths come from passive abilities that don't need to be "played." IE: Steady auto-attack damage, and the passive damage resistance from high armor. These are things that a player doesn't have to manage, ergo they're easier to play and as such, there will be more good Warriors than a more complex class like the Dervish.

Mekkakat · May 09, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

all classes when played at an expert level are difficult to play.. thats why so few can do it.

as far as "bad" sins, i thought i mentioned them earlier too.. but im sure you know how that was too.

W/Mo isnt being a "wammo"... a wammo is a derogatory term used for a warrior who uses extensive healing skills from the monk like to become a sort of paladin if you will. using mending touch is by no means being cheap or cheesy, look at all the healing skills a dervs gets lol.

and yeah, warriors will always be regarded much higher because of everything you just said other than the simple playing. spiking/bodyblocking, snares, kd timing ect.. all important skills ALL melee classes have and should utilize correctly/well, making all classes have an acute difficulty. warriors dont get all that nice healing/self aura that just.. messes with people (i.e. Thorns/EDA), they have to think outside of the box whereas the skills for a derv plainly tell you what they do. if you ask me... a wall of enchants arent hard to use at all.. and picking strong skills is an even easier task.. to me, the only way one could see dervs being hard to use is if they dont understand how mysticism works.. er.. other than that.. they're pretty straightforward. also, stopping to heal, activate enchantments, ect, isn't called a passive heal. thats.. stopping.. activating.. stopping.. activating.. running.. catching up again.. stopping.. crap.. stop kiting! let me turn on harriers grasp!! DANG IT!

just teasing you.. but really.. passive would be like letting Boon run out on its own, or maybe Illusion of Weakness wearing off. but to activate boon, then needing to use Sig of PL, is fully active. if you were talking about Msy Regen.. that move is straight Wammo city and should be banned

jk, but you would be correct as far as that goes. once dervs lose enchants from whatever source, they become suuuuuper easy to kill.. its like having your pants down, and true, they'll try their best to kite/slap the enchants back on, but the whole time, the other classes get freebies like mad... thats, again, just an example based off of your statement about heals ect. also, the DPS is proven lower on a derv than on a warrior, although not BAD per say, and true they hit hard.. but there are a lot of mechanics that go into the "hard hitting" category. remember.. air spiking isnt as strong against the team with the Prot monk as the guy that spams stone daggers.. its the fast paced HP chunks flying off that kill you the fastest.

.. not saying a warrior COULDNT hack a target in 3-4 chops either hehehe ;-)

Isil`Zha · May 10, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

all classes when played at an expert level are difficult to play.. thats why so few can do it.

as far as "bad" sins, i thought i mentioned them earlier too.. but im sure you know how that was too.

W/Mo isnt being a "wammo"... a wammo is a derogatory term used for a warrior who uses extensive healing skills from the monk like to become a sort of paladin if you will. using mending touch is by no means being cheap or cheesy, look at all the healing skills a dervs gets lol.

No, I don't consider using Mending Touch cheap - I just got the feeling Whammo referred to any W/Mo, derogatory or not. The other professions don't have much in the way of straight condition removal.

Quote:

and yeah, warriors will always be regarded much higher because of everything you just said other than the simple playing. spiking/bodyblocking, snares, kd timing ect.. all important skills ALL melee classes have and should utilize correctly/well, making all classes have an acute difficulty. warriors dont get all that nice healing/self aura that just.. messes with people (i.e. Thorns/EDA), they have to think outside of the box whereas the skills for a derv plainly tell you what they do.

Warrior skills plainly tell you what they do, especially the needlessly lengthy Prophecies ones (

) What you did just point out, is that Dervishes have more utility type skills available to afflict a wide range of conditions.

Quote:

if you ask me... a wall of enchants arent hard to use at all.. and picking strong skills is an even easier task..

err, oh really? - now you're contradicting yourself. So that's why there's a lot more bad Dervish players than Warriors, eh? There's more to it than a "wall of enchantments." Timing and positioning are key as well.

Quote:

to me, the only way one could see dervs being hard to use is if they dont understand how mysticism works.. er.. other than that.. they're pretty straightforward. also, stopping to heal, activate enchantments, ect, isn't called a passive heal. thats.. stopping.. activating.. stopping.. activating.. running.. catching up again.. stopping.. crap.. stop kiting! let me turn on harriers grasp!! DANG IT!

just teasing you.. but really.. passive would be like letting Boon run out on its own

Bingo. That would be part of the timing part of it - do it right and on average it'll wear off on its own at a perfect time. And why would I need to stop to heal if my opponent is running from me?

There are other ways to strip it without stopping, too - Twin Moon Sweep, Irresistible Sweep, Pious Assault, ect...

Quote:

or maybe Illusion of Weakness wearing off. but to activate boon, then needing to use Sig of PL, is fully active.

Yeah, that is, but it's such a huge heal, the time taken to do it is negligible considering at only around 10 Earth, you're looking at a 220+ heal that ignores the effects of deepwound or any other hex that reduces healing. I know the Vital Boon part of it does anyway (don't remember on the Signet), and that's by far the biggest part of the heal.

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if you were talking about Msy Regen.. that move is straight Wammo city and should be banned

jk, but you would be correct as far as that goes.

Nah, I have very few builds that use mystic regen.

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once dervs lose enchants from whatever source, they become suuuuuper easy to kill.. its like having your pants down, and true, they'll try their best to kite/slap the enchants back on, but the whole time, the other classes get freebies like mad... thats, again, just an example based off of your statement about heals ect.

Not really, I already explained the enchantment thing before when coming up against enchantment stripping.

Quote:

also, the DPS is proven lower on a derv than on a warrior, although not BAD per say, and true they hit hard.. but there are a lot of mechanics that go into the "hard hitting" category.

How so? A scythe hits for higher than a Hammer, and can hit multiple targets.

Quote:

remember.. air spiking isnt as strong against the team with the Prot monk as the guy that spams stone daggers.. its the fast paced HP chunks flying off that kill you the fastest.

.. not saying a warrior COULDNT hack a target in 3-4 chops either hehehe ;-)

So what happened to SoA? Really, this is going away from the discussion... which on your end has gone into a loop of things already refuted.

Mekkakat · May 10, 2007, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

No, I don't consider using Mending Touch cheap - I just got the feeling Whammo referred to any W/Mo, derogatory or not. The other professions don't have much in the way of straight condition removal.

Warrior skills plainly tell you what they do, especially the needlessly lengthy Prophecies ones (

) What you did just point out, is that Dervishes have more utility type skills available to afflict a wide range of conditions.

in order to use the skills effectivly, you have to look past exactly what they do in order to spike properly. for instance, evis/ex strike/agonizing chop. thats a basic, easy to see one, but dervs dont really have any skill chaining abilities. randomly firing skills isnt very tactical, and even with warrior-like tactics, the best spike would be an attack skill with a fast 1/4 second swing follow up.. and even thats not really a spike.. just a peck

err, oh really? - now you're contradicting yourself. So that's why there's a lot more bad Dervish players than Warriors, eh? There's more to it than a "wall of enchantments." Timing and positioning are key as well.

how is that a contradiction? that IS why there are a lot of bad dervs.. enchants are SUPER easy to spam, and as long as you have a general idea of how mysticism works, you'll be fine

Bingo. That would be part of the timing part of it - do it right and on average it'll wear off on its own at a perfect time. And why would I need to stop to heal if my opponent is running from me?

monks.. casters in general will run from you? lol.. also.. if you're not going for healers first... well.. we wont get into basic gameplay. also, when kiting in the backlines, thats where sins/paragons eles are.. they'll be killing you.. and once the warrior is freed up, he'll be coming after you too.. thats why you'd have to stop to heal.. the enchants dont magically put themselves back on

There are other ways to strip it without stopping, too - Twin Moon Sweep, Irresistible Sweep, Pious Assault, ect...

yeah, and then the enchant is gone.. dont you have to stop to put it back on??? lol.. you allllways have to stop to recast, simple as that.. thats one major flaw in the DPS/Spiking of a derv, they cant stay consistent.

Yeah, that is, but it's such a huge heal, the time taken to do it is negligible considering at only around 10 Earth, you're looking at a 220+ heal that ignores the effects of deepwound or any other hex that reduces healing. I know the Vital Boon part of it does anyway (don't remember on the Signet), and that's by far the biggest part of the heal.

ignores dw and hex.. wait wha?? lol.. if you're talking about vital boon, theres tons of things that can stop that. its a cute burst heal, but once its done, you'll be frantically trying to apply it, use it, apply it, wasting time while others continuously damage you

Nah, I have very few builds that use mystic regen.

well good

Not really, I already explained the enchantment thing before when coming up against enchantment stripping.

How so? A scythe hits for higher than a Hammer, and can hit multiple targets.

only hits multiple targets IF they're there. most teams wont randomly clump up on you like that unless you're in something like RA. also, Scythes have a terrible low end, that's often hindering their full 40+ damage. yeah, many use Wild Blow, or just hope for lucky high-end strikes, but thats all conditional damage, is inconsistant, and btw, scythes on average at 16 weapon mastery only hit for 24 dps, 34 with Fury... thats less than all the other weapons in the game. that's not factoring in the time between you recasting enchants and trying to actually catch up to your target who is killing your monk.

So what happened to SoA? Really, this is going away from the discussion... which on your end has gone into a loop of things already refuted.

SoA? what about it.. all melee have a problem with protters, but consistency is the killer, not pecks of lucky criticals and mediocre attack skills :/

Scythes might look attractive cause of that nice high end.. but in the end, its the mean of the damage, paired with the median that shows the low dps that they put out. even swords do more if you're counting DPS+IAS.

Ensign · May 10, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

As far as raw damage goes, Dervishes generally beat out Warriors. With autoattacks alone, a Scythe deals more damage than a Hammer at 16 spec (against same level enemies)...though a bit less overall against level 28 mobs (reduced crit chance). Dervishes also spike harder, faster, and more consistently than Warriors do (don't need to build adrenaline, fast recharges on spike skills). That's just against one target as well, when you start hitting multiple guys even for a short time you outpace any other physical in the game. Built in AoE is awesome in PvE.

The knocks on Dervishes, at least in PvP, are a lack of a good IAS (Heart of Fury is the only one available, and it kinda sucks), and no knockdowns (every Warrior has Bull's Strike at the very least, hammers knockdown like mad). Fragility is the other problem, with relatively low inherent AL and a two handed weapon.

I've always thought of Dervishes as awesome in PvE, in much the same way that Minion Masters are awesome in PvE - great for clearing out mid to hard content rather quickly with decent defense and brute force. It doesn't work in DoA because it doesn't fit in the forced tank/nuke/heal model - sorry.

I think they're pretty much reviled in PvE beause basically everyone runs them as some sort of terrible Mystic Regeneration tank, that still takes a ton of damage (significantly less armor than a Warrior) - and instead of dealing damage the way a Warrior would, they stop and cast lots of dumb enchantments on themselves, making them damage sponges that don't do anything ever. It's basically the whammo problem, except they're even more fragile.

I'm not really sure how that's worse than what a typical pug contributes, but I can understand how people would recognize that as bad.

Peace,
-CxE

Batou of Nine · May 10, 2007, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

ah i see what you mean now <snip> 2 books, one with white/black covers, good analogy, but im looking on the inside of the book i.e. the parts that make it up, not say.. the armor. yeah, sins had it rough, that was poor usage of the entire class itself, in other words, people used them like garbage tanks, running about dying left and right. it took time for them to find their place, and i think the same thing is happening to most dervish players (especially the inexperienced ones), for example, the 3 trillion 130hp dervs in RA/TA. thats just silly, and i think the community needs to see that it stops. warriors get bashed all the time, but people that love them (like me) put out threads to point out the weaknesses, to, in the end, fix them. thats all, just fun, critical thinking, to hopefully jog the minds of the novice to take the words of the skilled that have posted so far, and utilize those skills.

Heh, i am glad you understand my point. But you still havent addressed it. I totally understand discussion for the sake of discussion. But i think lots here are taking your "testing and records" too seriously. Me, stating that the dervish class being shown as ineffectual is not possible through quantifiable/objective or otherwise fair ways, *is* however, fact. That in mind, people cannot look past your first post. I honestly think your first post was made out of fustration with dervishes and our own negative experiences. However, the more posts i see from you, i see more intelligent thought on the matter... My suggestion, drop the *whole* "I have tested and recorded..." line of thinking. It is making this discussion more a debate on what is fact and what is opinion.

Yes, you may think you are looking at the "inside of the book", however that is false. As i have said many times, recording how many Dervish builds are "effective" in various PvP levels is, in the end, still a subjective exterior look. To base your argument that a class is ineffective because of such records is very naive, because as i said, that is not something that can be quantified for a proven point.

As you have admitted in the above post, Assasins saw the *exact* situation. Too many players didn't have a clue how to properly utilize the class' strengths. So it was thrown to the side as a garbage class. Then over time, more and more people began to understand how the class works, and incredibly powerful and efficient builds began to become mainstream.

Such may be the case of the dervish, nay, such *is* the case. So in conclusion, i think we can all agree with you on that one point: many dervish players at this moment are still clueless about the class. But like the assasin, you cannot use that fact to generalize about the dervish being an "out-classed" and ineffective class.

I would love to see continued positive criticism and debate on overal effective dervish builds, skills, and niches. I just hope your one-on-one with Isil' Zha remains civil...

As far as builds, i have been mostly PvE for the last 6 months, so i cannot directly enter the debate about dervish's in PvP. But as one person said already, did you know the winning GvG tournament guild included a dervish in their winning build?

(if you haven't already commented on that, heh)

cheers

Mekkakat · May 10, 2007, 03:01 AM // 03:01

nice post Ensign/Batou

you're both right, especially you Batou.. i was totally ticked after getting garbage teams to fight against in TA, and watching practically hundreds of teams go down the drain with 130 hp dervs. so my first post, which i apologized for, and will again, is a little on the flustered side

.

the way i see dervs out classed is how sins can be classified as outclassed. sins cant tank, cant rush, cant really hold their own at all, and live a fragile life of of quick snappy spikes. BUT, thats how the class works. i could see if people played dervs as simplistic pressure monsters that use effective, tactical enchants rather than heal heal heal, tank tank tank enchants, and running in head first. maybe they can do that in pve, or even in pvp for a few seconds, but i think rationality mixed with reality is what the general class/community is still missing.. and again, im positive this doesnt apply to ANY of you contributers to my thread.

as far as DPS, without IAS its somewhere like 23-25 for Scythes, with, 40-30. i meant to write "even Hammers do more damage", not swords btw. its in another post with full damage specs on level 20-30 targets with multiple IAS testing.... but thats beside the point. the raw output isnt making up for the lag between attacks with heal/enchant replacing ect.. but then again.. if you dont have many enchants, you dont have to worry i suppose..

keep me posted guys.. i run Reapers everything anymore.. so i rarely even have but 2-3 enchants.. so all i see is bad bad bad for the most part.. if im way off as to what good dervs use, please tell me, but so far, the average is 4-6 enchants, one (if no) stance, and 2 attack skills... i use 4 attack skills.. but thats me.. so keep me in line. thanks again

ruadvin · May 10, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

i could see if people played dervs as simplistic pressure monsters that use effective, tactical enchants rather than heal heal heal, tank tank tank enchants, and running in head first. maybe they can do that in pve, or even in pvp for a few seconds, but i think rationality mixed with reality is what the general class/community is still missing..

I think the term "duh" applies

I personally go the pressure direction. But the same argument was said by multiple people when the 'sins came out. But that's already been hit on a couple times, moving on...

Quote:

as far as DPS, without IAS its somewhere like 23-25 for Scythes, with, 40-30. i meant to write "even Hammers do more damage", not swords btw. its in another post with full damage specs on level 20-30 targets with multiple IAS testing.... but thats beside the point.

I don't know why, but I've never been able to get hammers to do this amazing amount of damage... maybe I was just using them wrong. I was always under the assumption hammers were used primarily as a kd spammer. When I try and do that, I notice several of the KD's do not add any damage. Backbreaker does more damage, but 10 adren, ouch. Counter blow, no extra damage. Devestating Hammer does kd and weakness which is nice. Earthshaker doesn't do more damage, but the aoe kd is amusing (and I never see this used). Hammer bash is a straight kd, but you lose all adrenaline, ouch again. Heavy Blow is nice, but all adrenaline gone again. Irresistable blow is nice if they're blocking. Magehunter smash has a conditional KD that's simple to achieve, but again no extra damage.

Meanwhile, pretty much all the dervish attack skills do extra damage. So I fail to see how hammers do more damage than scythes... I do, however, admit my lack of experience when using hammers. I prefer axes for my warrior when I use it. As an aside, I was a little disappointed that a weapon that is essentially a giant hook has absolutely no way of knocking someone down...

Quote:

the raw output isnt making up for the lag between attacks with heal/enchant replacing ect.. but then again.. if you dont have many enchants, you dont have to worry i suppose..

Keep the enchantments simple... Faithful intervention shouldn't need to be reapplied often with a decent healer, heart of fury is 3/4 cast time, which wont slow you down long. And if you're using wind prayers, you'll have several methods of going faster to catch someone, and crippling to keep them from running away.

Quote:

keep me posted guys.. i run Reapers everything anymore.. so i rarely even have but 2-3 enchants.. so all i see is bad bad bad for the most part.. if im way off as to what good dervs use, please tell me, but so far, the average is 4-6 enchants, one (if no) stance, and 2 attack skills... i use 4 attack skills.. but thats me.. so keep me in line. thanks again

I personally don't like reapers that much. But it's more of a spike than pressure. Yes, that +40 damage (at 15 scythe mastery) is nice. And deep wound really hurts when they're already below half... I personally like crippling sweep, wounding strike, victorious sweep. Cover the crippling with deepwound, since you can reapply deep wound every 3 seconds. Victorious sweep does +31 damage (at 15 scythe) and, since they should already be suffering from deepwound and will most likely have less health than you, will heal you for 80 health (again, at 15 scythe). I like to combine this with faithful intervention so you'll likely have an ench up at all times, assuming you have a decent healer. Other fast-casting, low recharge enchantments as backup. Wild blow from warrior helps against stance users. So if you only take two extra enchantments, that still leaves room for a rez. This assumes my counting ability is up to par... it's still early in the morning for me

I'm probably gonna catch flak for my build I just posted, but it works for me.

Isil`Zha · May 10, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

nice post Ensign/Batou

you're both right, especially you Batou.. i was totally ticked after getting garbage teams to fight against in TA, and watching practically hundreds of teams go down the drain with 130 hp dervs. so my first post, which i apologized for, and will again, is a little on the flustered side

.

the way i see dervs out classed is how sins can be classified as outclassed. sins cant tank, cant rush, cant really hold their own at all, and live a fragile life of of quick snappy spikes. BUT, thats how the class works. i could see if people played dervs as simplistic pressure monsters that use effective, tactical enchants rather than heal heal heal, tank tank tank enchants, and running in head first. maybe they can do that in pve, or even in pvp for a few seconds, but i think rationality mixed with reality is what the general class/community is still missing.. and again, im positive this doesnt apply to ANY of you contributers to my thread.

as far as DPS, without IAS its somewhere like 23-25 for Scythes, with, 40-30. i meant to write "even Hammers do more damage", not swords btw. its in another post with full damage specs on level 20-30 targets with multiple IAS testing.... but thats beside the point. the raw output isnt making up for the lag between attacks with heal/enchant replacing ect.. but then again.. if you dont have many enchants, you dont have to worry i suppose..

keep me posted guys.. i run Reapers everything anymore.. so i rarely even have but 2-3 enchants.. so all i see is bad bad bad for the most part.. if im way off as to what good dervs use, please tell me, but so far, the average is 4-6 enchants, one (if no) stance, and 2 attack skills... i use 4 attack skills.. but thats me.. so keep me in line. thanks again

I'll cover the other post above later, I just forgot to mention something important and thought I had. (Oops.

) Most of my builds have 3 enchantments, only a couple with 4, and those are usually specialized in some way (Vow of Silence for instance) and 3-4 attacks (one of them usually being utility in some way - like crippling sweep.) I even have a few that only have 2 enchantments, like my EDA build. I find more than 3 enchantments takes way too much time to keep up - even with 3 I only keep up 2 of them, the other is usually a utility/attack type enchantment such as Heart of Holy Flame, which is used in-combat as an attack and as such does not count as downtime.

Edit: My Dwayna build only has 1 non-combat enchantment. The other two in it are used to cripple, hit with holy damage, then inflict burning and bleeding while hitting them with attack skills.

Attack Skill --> Utility Enchant --> Attack Enchant --> Pious Assault x 2 --> Attack Skill --> Pious Assault -- > Start again at Utility Enchant. A constant, non-stop assault of attack enchantments and attack skills.... PS: Pious Assault is free with this setup.

narcotic squirrel · May 11, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

You say you know how to play a Derv and of course you have obviously had expirience with them...since u beat the Campaign with 3 of them...but beating the campaign isnt really that huge...since you can beat it with an ele without max armor (though with some difficulty). I mean even crappy people can beat any campaign many times(not to say your crappy). And with all the counters your saying can be applied to any other class in the game. You saying Avatars can just be interupted. Well so can almost any other main skill in the game. Also just having a personal distaste for enchantments almost guarantees a bad expirince with them. Also I dunno where your getting that sins can kill em when they get in a first strike or w/e Cause when ever a sin tries to gank me in AB just throw on Dust Cloak then Pious Asslt, followed with crip sweep...then after that their basically done. Also even 50 times in RA(i know it was just an example) wont show you good players at all. Dervs are the new sins they are new a lot of ppl like em so MANY noobs play em. Recntly i heard from a friend that there was a build for a derv that was starting to out farm a warrior. Also I think it may be just play style or something. I find that once u get into a "Rythm" with the derv(depending on the build you play) my personal performance goes up. I think its just personal preferance. I seriously dont think dervs are underpowered at all.

Mekkakat · May 11, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

as you've brought up, i addressed that as well. by no means is PvE hard, outside of HM. i was simply putting that i had np beating pve campaigns or anything, to show that i had acquired all the actual skills ect, and had tried the pve related builds, and not just the pvp ones. Dust Cloak and Pious Assault are great, but the idea of ganking is catching your opponent offgaurd, in which case casting would be almost impossible as fast as a sins spike goes off.. but thats not important, or even always the case. I dont really AB anymore, seeing as it has little to no use for me, but of course.. thats just me :P. also, good post in general, especially since you caught me.. outside of a prot monk i HATE enchants

. i just hate having anything that could hurt me more than help at times

. again, not always the case, especially depending on your situation... but i cant stand nasty necros and mesmers who love to have it out for people with a little golden ^ by their name

(just kidding, i love both of those classes lolz).

Van vincing · May 11, 2007, 11:12 AM // 11:12

I know this is sort of a repeating post, but does anyone know the dervish disrupting dagger build, Im really interested.

BTW dervishes are definately not underpowered (Some of you may have read the description for dervish's in guild wiki, which is the offical wiki for guild wars. It says that dervishes are powerful offensively and defensively, making it one of the strongest class). Which is completely true. Dervish don't even require secondary because their skills are a mixture of every other class. They can be played like every single other class, and defensively, mysic regeneration and mystic vigor together hitting 3 people at once, insane heal right? Offensively they're amazing too. With lyssa and speed skills like heart of fury, mysic and eremite sweep together deals at least 50 dmg or above (at 15 mystisim, you will always have a minimum of 50 damage when you hit someone casting.)

Also, you'll realize they're all good counters against every class. Warriors are tanks, but they cant self heal very well. Dervishes can be tanks too, and with self heal, they are unstoppable. Against all casters or summoned creatures, is lyssa and banishing strike not good enough? Against monks, Grenth or Melandru will do the job. Grenth does it better because there is no way the monks will have enough enchantments on them that'll save them.

Mekkakat · May 11, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

i understand what you mean Van, but a lot of the time people post about how good dervs are, they go right for the elites. what i like about say warriors or paragons, is that they dont always need an elite to be very functional. you mentioned 3 alone in your post, which obviously cant all be used at once, and i know you were just giving examples, but its just hard for me to like those avatars. too much down time, and conditional use for my taste (thats just me though).

also Van... im like.. blind and missed your post asking about disrupting dagger's build, sorry man. the basic build is super simple ( this is what EW AND ef used in the Celestial Tournament.)

Avatar of Melandru
Heart of fury
disrupting dagger
dash
-utility
-attack skill
-attack skill
-rez

some of the utility options were things like deaths charge ect
attack skills were basic. victorious/wearying. some threw in the extra attack skill in for enhanced use as well, or even a 1/4 second swing for the spike. attributes are basically mysticism and scythe mastery, so whatever you feel the most comfortable with, while still being at optimal efficiency. its simple, but darn good, and one of the few times i'll use an avatar :P