Curse

Isil`Zha · May 07, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Ah, that's right, when you can't fight back, say a particular skill is a crappy skill despite what was otherwise proven, say "who cares", make some sarcastic remarks and some made up thing about anger, completely avoiding the subject entirely, then top it off with calling me a "flamer."

Clearly, logical debate is too much for you, "take that 'strawman' with you"... hah, it's not a flame, it's a logical fallacy that you repeatedly committed.

And now you've resorted to the typical last resort cop-out, "moral" high ground.

You said Warriors could somehow handle conditions and hexes that shut-them down better than Dervishes, I completely proved this wrong.

Here I thought I might actually get someone that would actually at least attempt to come up with something substantial, instead I get the typical "ignore everything you don't like, then resort to ad hominems and random personal attacks and run off."

I suppose your next post will be much in the same line, completely side-stepping the issue entirely. It'd be nice if you proved me wrong here and actually tried to debate, but it appears you don't want a debate, you, as others pointed out, just want everyone to agree with you.

And you can say that "i can play a dervish, people seen me" - too bad you have no evidence to back that up. All evidence you provided on your knowledge of a Dervish points to ignorance and inexperience and you've done nothing to prove otherwise except say "nuh-uh! I know how to play a Dervish!"

To put in GW terms, you're a scrub when it comes to debate. You act as though you come for good debate, but when someone experienced comes along and steamrolls you with actual evidence and logical reasoning, you ignore it, and through some magical made-up scrub rules you act as though I'm the bad guy.

Mekkakat · May 07, 2007, 08:42 PM // 20:42

ok now you're annoying me.

you're continuing to try and argue like a little kid instead of dropping the subject. amazing, dealing with JUST BLIND is ONE conditional way of using ONE dervish move, that does NOT equal good ANYTHING. i was stating that a warrior can handle all conditions in a more defensive manor, simply by being able to hustle THROUGH the problems, where as a dervish would have to heal quite frequently. SAND SHARDS DOES NOT DO THAT MUCH DAMAGE. amazing, it creates a SUPER-WEAK AoE EFFECT, get an ele to watch you say that that's amazing and they'll laugh at you just with freaking fire storm! in your screenshot, you're attacking 6 or even more Kournan Bowman during what seems to be consulate docks, WOW, you used Sand Shards in PvE, on NON MOVING NPCS, that takes reaaaal talent, and on top of that, you claim it does this magnificent damage to each target, when in fact, you're simply adding up all the AoE TOGETHER, and not factoring that it's only hitting them once or twice, and to top all of that off, you swung twice because i can see where you used what looks like Eremites attack, which is a 1/4 second swing follow up, to make it look like you did even more damage, with your weak little 17 AoE flail. thats 34 damage to EACH TARGET on a double swing if Sand Shards is swinging for 17 damage a pop, AoE DOES NOT WORK IN STACKS, otherwise meteor shower would theoretically do 1500 damage! your lack of knowledge of damage mechanics, and simply game play, along with your incredible lust for showing your malnourished ego, is incredibly condescending, and worse than that, a show of little to no decency as a person. quit calling people names and then on top of that, making up stuff, its just pathetic!

heres a SS of me using Sand Shards on SIX targets, in the BEST conditions, to show just how much AoE it does. if you wanted to say, "dervishes can deal some fun AoE with Sand Shards if they're blocked or blinded in possibly pve situations", and not "i can kill everything in the world automatically with 1000+ damage EACH to 4 targets with sand shards", maybe people could take you seriously, but as you can CLEARLY SEE, even at 12 earth mastery, its only doing 21 damage a pop, and thats with Twin Moon AND Eremites BOTH going off WITH FLAME, and its still not doing enough to get them below 3/4 hp each. quit making junk up trying to look cool, people DO research things before they post, and on top of that, everyone knows sand shards is next to useless in almost any situation. if your blind perpetually, or have no way of condition removal/anti block, maybe you need to reconfigure your gameplay.

in the first screen shot the first hit is 2 swings with eremites quickly following a normal swing, NOT getting the targets below 3/4 hp, the second pic is twin moon and erimites on the same targets right after that, doing just enough to get them to about 55% hp, thats NOT 1000+ damage each even with 6 targets and FIVE swings.

Nkah Sennyt · May 07, 2007, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Tone it down a notch, kiddies. Getting a bit heated in here.

Mekkakat · May 07, 2007, 11:40 PM // 23:40

my apologies Nkah, you're 100% correct, no need to argue over something so trivial. just frustrated and sorta sleepy

Isil`Zha · May 07, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

[QUOTE=Mekkakat]

Quote:

amazing, dealing with JUST BLIND is ONE conditional way of using ONE dervish move, that does NOT equal good ANYTHING. i was stating that a warrior can handle all conditions in a more defensive manor, simply by being able to hustle THROUGH the problems, where as a dervish would have to heal quite frequently.

Blind would be the single biggest problem any melee would face, and you haven't really explained how a Warrior can "hustle" through it. A blind warrior is still doing zero damage.

Quote:

SAND SHARDS DOES NOT DO THAT MUCH DAMAGE. amazing, it creates a SUPER-WEAK AoE EFFECT, get an ele to watch you say that that's amazing and they'll laugh at you just with freaking fire storm!

Firestorm is stationary and completely unrelated.

Quote:

in your screenshot, you're attacking 6 or even more Kournan Bowman during what seems to be consulate docks, WOW, you used Sand Shards in PvE, on NON MOVING NPCS, that takes reaaaal talent,

I see, you ask for a screenshot of what Sand Shards can do.. then turn around and attack me for it?

Now you're venturing into just straight dishonest debate. So much for your moral high ground.

Quote:

and on top of that, you claim it does this magnificent damage to each target, when in fact, you're simply adding up all the AoE TOGETHER, and not factoring that it's only hitting them once or twice,

What a lovely strawman, I never said that, what I did say was: "1000+ dmg spread across 4 teammates" Next!

Quote:

and to top all of that off, you swung twice because i can see where you used what looks like Eremites attack, which is a 1/4 second swing follow up, to make it look like you did even more damage, with your weak little 17 AoE flail.

That's a big accusation to accuse me of such dishonesty, in a screenshot taken back in November no less. Oh but that's right, you wanted a screenshot, apparently not to say "ok," but to use it to attack me based on false assumptions.

Quote:

thats 34 damage to EACH TARGET on a double swing if Sand Shards is swinging for 17 damage a pop, AoE DOES NOT WORK IN STACKS, otherwise meteor shower would theoretically do 1500 damage! your lack of knowledge of damage mechanics, and simply game play, along with your incredible lust for showing your malnourished ego, is incredibly condescending, and worse than that, a show of little to no decency as a person. quit calling people names and then on top of that, making up stuff, its just pathetic!

Ah, the continuation of the strawman: IE: you're yelling at me for something I never said. Next!

Quote:

heres a SS of me using Sand Shards on SIX targets, in the BEST conditions, to show just how much AoE it does. if you wanted to say, "dervishes can deal some fun AoE with Sand Shards if they're blocked or blinded in possibly pve situations", and not "i can kill everything in the world automatically with 1000+ damage EACH to 4 targets with sand shards", maybe people could take you seriously, but as you can CLEARLY SEE, even at 12 earth mastery, its only doing 21 damage a pop, and thats with Twin Moon AND Eremites BOTH going off WITH FLAME, and its still not doing enough to get them below 3/4 hp each.

Few problems:

1) You're only triggering SS on two targets,
2) You're only hitting 4 targets, not 6, as you can clearly see by the red indicator, and the fact that SS's range is "nearby," not "in the area" as those outer three are.
3) Most of your post is based on your strawman against me, meaning it's useless.

Quote:

quit making junk up trying to look cool, people DO research things before they post, and on top of that, everyone knows sand shards is next to useless in almost any situation. if your blind perpetually, or have no way of condition removal/anti block, maybe you need to reconfigure your gameplay.

You mean don't make up stuff that other posters say? Oops. Then you go off on some tangent about being blind perpetually, which is most certainly not the case, or the issue here.

You did nicely show that my figuring of how many times Sand Shards hits was right, and yours was wrong. Perhaps you should've done the research, eh?

Quote:

in the first screen shot the first hit is 2 swings with eremites quickly following a normal swing, NOT getting the targets below 3/4 hp, the second pic is twin moon and erimites on the same targets right after that, doing just enough to get them to about 55% hp, thats NOT 1000+ damage each even with 6 targets and FIVE swings.

Let's watch this fall apart as well:
1) Still continuing with the strawman, putting words into my mouth - rendering most of this invalid.
2) You only triggered off 2 targets, and only hit 4 of them with it, not 6.

BTW, 1000+ damage to a team is still 1,000+ damage that they have to deal with, spiked into about a second of time

Also, just to show that its only triggering off two and hitting 4, I made this video.

Batou of Nine · May 08, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Yes, admittedly i have not read through all your posts, as most of this thread seems to have turned into a Rant war between you and a select few. Let me make it 10x more simple.

I guarantee, there are very simple reasons why so many people are standing up to your statements.

1) You insist you are trying to focus on objective issues, you vainly don't realize that no matter how much you "test" and record, you will always be pushing a *subjective* point. Your already pre-determined opinion of dervishes will drive your debate points, and therefore remain based on pure opinion. Period.

2) Your so-called tests and observations will not prove anything. RA is only one small example. But is a reflection of ALL of the game; no matter what area of the game you take your records from, you will find "noobs" and inexperienced players, in all tiers of PvP. A point you conveniently ignored from my last post. Therefore, ultimatly there is NO, none, nada any facts that you can base "Dervishes outclassed by all classes..." (or whatever) argument on.

3) Also, in regards to PvP you cannot say dervishes are ineffectual because such and such class out-damages/out-survives them. Another point you conveniently ignored from my last post: All of PvP has counters. No matter what "uber" class or uber build you use there is always a counter that can effectivily shut you down. Basing the "dervishes are out-classed" argument off of anything is just... well non-existant. Dervishes like any class in the game can and will be able to counter any build presented to them, provided they are given the right skills/build.

4) And yet *another* point you ignored was the point about player skill vs class effectiveness. Meaning player skill will *always* and forever be more important then any class being deemed as the most powerful or useless. Why is this point important? Just relects back on PvP counters point. Give a dervish the right build, he will take down anything he is designed to take down. Just like any other class, just like any other counter.

5) If you honestly did as much testing and recording as you seem to portray, it still would not even come close to representing overal dervish effectiveness in this game (in PvP). You could have observed and recorded 2000 useless Dervishes out of 2001 games, but that wouldnt even represent a good sample size (only about a .05% of total population size, assuming a basic 4 mil size). So you would have to have observed/recorded/tested nearly a couple hundred thousand instances for under a 20% representation (even 100,000 for a 10% representation would work, but is again way too much work).

The point of all that? Do you not see how no matter what point you put forth, its ALL subjective. BAsing your opinions on "testing" is silly when if you wanted it to be truely objective the amount of effort to do so seems to be an overwhelming ridiculous amount of work. Which you did not/could not do (well, you could if you were that stubborn.

) Yes, everyone else's points are also purely subjective, obviously because they DO like the dervish and DO see the dervish as an effective class.

But in the end you continue to insist your points as fact (objective) rather then admit what they are as pure opinion (subjective). That is my only gripe. Other then that i can respect you opinion, and could honeslty care less whether you liked dervishes or not. IF those points don't make sense to you either, then there really is no arguing as you probly made up your mind already eh?

cheers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

A major flaw in your debate is that you totally accuse me of placing some sort of hatred towards dervs, and that all of my inconclusive testing was done in RA. you flat out didnt read all of the post to even know what all i did. i tested in RA, TA, GvG, HA, and PvE, all of which i was disappointed on my own personal opinions as where the dervish stands in comparison to other classes.
I have multiple test showing the dervish death ratio in all 4v4 battle combinations in multiple testing rounds, with and without team support and overextending, and i participate/observe MANY high end battles, in which usually dervishes are never even involved other than maybe one derv as pressure to allow a warrior or other class to do all the actual damage. i've already "pondered" many things dealing with the dervishes class, and to answer another post, i know all about dying to make the 130 build "more efficient. if you werent so quick to think you know more than everyone you'd also know that its NOT good to ALWAYS die when using the 130 hp builds seeing as your target may call for a different style, so please, refrain from trying to "make me look bad" because you think i have no idea how a derv works, just because i dont like them. you can know EVERYTHING about something, and still not like it. the same thing would happen if you saw a nice imported car, it was fast, powerful, ect, you knew all the specs, but you JUST DONT LIKE IT. people CAN have opinions while being educated, and learning and experiencing everything dealing with said subject in person. i thought the pve was fine, big whoop, pve isnt hard. maybe in HARDMODE, but even then, i dont let or want dervs on my teams. in 4v4 arenas, dervs are cute damage, but for a nice TA team, they're practically nothing. a thumper/warrior or really anything but an assassin maybe, will do much better 9/10 times, and thats an opinion based on factual evidence, observing, playing. i have literally tried every build i have ever seen for pvp/pve IN PERSON, and PROPERLY, and have not been interested in the damage, nor utility of the class. i have also OBSERVED 90% of these builds in said arenas/pve to see if maybe my use was sub-par, and in fact was NOT, and testing became quite conclusive in my previous judgment on my own personal test.

in conclusion, i will make some videos showing some real gameplay, and SSs depicting what i see in arenas/pve that is bothering me. these will not be biased, and will be based on calculated team functions, and not the sole role of the dervish running about with a million healing skills and pretending to be invincible. i will try to make it as fair as possible, and make many test, as to not show only a few "unlucky" runs in either parties case. this isnt to prove anything other than that i want people to understand my opinion, and at least stop bashing me because they read two lines from the OP thinking they know everything in the world.

next time Batou, try reading all of the post before you try godmode in a forum, then you just make everyone look silly repeating what you should have read. : /

Mekkakat · May 08, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

Yes, admittedly i have not read through all your posts, as most of this thread seems to have turned into a Rant war between you and a select few. Let me make it 10x more simple.

I guarantee, there are very simple reasons why so many people are standing up to your statements.

1) You insist you are trying to focus on objective issues, you vainly don't realize that no matter how much you "test" and record, you will always be pushing a *subjective* point. Your already pre-determined opinion of dervishes will drive your debate points, and therefore remain based on pure opinion. Period.

2) Your so-called tests and observations will not prove anything. RA is only one small example. But is a reflection of ALL of the game; no matter what area of the game you take your records from, you will find "noobs" and inexperienced players, in all tiers of PvP. A point you conveniently ignored from my last post. Therefore, ultimatly there is NO, none, nada any facts that you can base "Dervishes outclassed by all classes..." (or whatever) argument on.

3) Also, in regards to PvP you cannot say dervishes are ineffectual because such and such class out-damages/out-survives them. Another point you conveniently ignored from my last post: All of PvP has counters. No matter what "uber" class or uber build you use there is always a counter that can effectivily shut you down. Basing the "dervishes are out-classed" argument off of anything is just... well non-existant. Dervishes like any class in the game can and will be able to counter any build presented to them, provided they are given the right skills/build.

4) And yet *another* point you ignored was the point about player skill vs class effectiveness. Meaning player skill will *always* and forever be more important then any class being deemed as the most powerful or useless. Why is this point important? Just relects back on PvP counters point. Give a dervish the right build, he will take down anything he is designed to take down. Just like any other class, just like any other counter.

5) If you honestly did as much testing and recording as you seem to portray, it still would not even come close to representing overal dervish effectiveness in this game (in PvP). You could have observed and recorded 2000 useless Dervishes out of 2001 games, but that wouldnt even represent a good sample size (only about a .05% of total population size, assuming a basic 4 mil size). So you would have to have observed/recorded/tested nearly a couple hundred thousand instances for under a 20% representation (even 100,000 for a 10% representation would work, but is again way too much work).

The point of all that? Do you not see how no matter what point you put forth, its ALL subjective. BAsing your opinions on "testing" is silly when if you wanted it to be truely objective the amount of effort to do so seems to be an overwhelming ridiculous amount of work. Which you did not/could not do (well, you could if you were that stubborn.

) Yes, everyone else's points are also purely subjective, obviously because they DO like the dervish and DO see the dervish as an effective class.

But in the end you continue to insist your points as fact (objective) rather then admit what they are as pure opinion (subjective). That is my only gripe. Other then that i can respect you opinion, and could honeslty care less whether you liked dervishes or not. IF those points don't make sense to you either, then there really is no arguing as you probly made up your mind already eh?

cheers.

im confused... when did i ever say what i was saying was all objective? i specifically posted that this is all based on opinions based on facts, meaning that its opinions educated by firsthand and third person observations.

maybe reading the other post would have helped you while posting a retort to what seemingly was me stating that im right, you're all wrong, but i also specifically said that i was composing a full test, and the the RA part, was literally a tenth of what i've done so far. i have a few spreadsheets im going to upload soon with damage mechanics/builds for a different post, dealing with how (and again, to state and make sure you know what i mean is reflecting an opinion, and NOT objective statements) i feel as though dervishes have a higher risk/liability rate, and are outclassed by its other melee/physically ranged characters. again, i apologize for the 50th time in this thread if i seem like i'm trying to tell all of you dervish players you suck because of your class, because no, thats not what i said, nor mean, all im saying, is that the class, and the community in general TO THIS POINT has reflected a larger community of bad players/builds, than all the other classes, and in cohorts with the style of the class, and the classes heavy enchant/spell/melee/stance mixture, causes a few, if not many counters, where as its brother and sister classes would only have to deal with a fraction of those counters.

i.e. counters for melee

just a few) hex/blind/weakness
counters for casters : (just a few) daze backfire general mesmer use/interrupts.
counters for stances: (just a few) wild moves in general

where as a warrior would only have counters to 2, eles to one, ect.. thats just part of my opinion as to the liability part. again, totally not trying to objectify the players that clearly know what they're doing, they still play, and always will play great, which i hope are the people posting, and i believe ARE the people posting, thus why i would even post here. im looking for YOUR input as to what makes YOU enjoy the class, and what makes it a great class to play.. so far only a few have done that in this post, seeing as most are still trying to argue with my opinions. im just trying to get a feel for the dervish community and how its operating, not to stir up trouble cause i dont enjoy the class as much as others, thats all.

my test, while not being finished as of yet, are still accurate and not biased in any way, and on top of that, are in multiple aspects of the game with multiple testing subjects/trials. so far i have 100 ra matches, 100 ta, and 50 GvG and HA. i have over 20 mainstream builds and 5.. not so mainstream builds being observed/used in all pvp, and in pve. so its not like RA was my only test, because i do understand novice players ect.. but this is also RA with 100 different dervishes (i recorded the names), so its not like im going for broke on some nooby dude rushing in every match 90 times. im being as fair as possible, to construct an educated opinion, and i think in all of that, i am growing to enjoy the class more than before (not saying i like like it or anything

). i'm honestly only even doing this because i've become bored with the game and cant wait for GWEN lol.. if im not testing, im playing Para trying to finish getting my 10th maxed title.. (darn you cartog!!!)

please start posting builds/ideas/comments dealing with your dervish experience, seeing as thats what this is about, to aid my testing, thanks

Servant of Kali · May 08, 2007, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vengeful Spirit

agree on one thing and that is avatars=bad i use reapers sweep builds

Hi.

I would be very interested to see some clarification and explanation and argumentation on why avatars are bad.

Personally, i think they are awesome, except Balthazar for which i still see no use. I use it only, only if i run from one zone to the other if the zones are close to each other and i reach the destination before this avatar expires. On a longer routes i dont even use it for running. Tried, didnt like it that much (except for fun because you look cool).

On the other hand, i still consider Reapers Sweep a bad Dervish elite, which i argumented on several occasions (GvG and HA excluded, as i dont play that atm, but since this isnt GvG/HA board that shouldnt be a problem). I dont know, maybe im wrong, but in that case skill may be ok but it doesnt suit my playstyle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

Admittedly, yes the class is attractive to "noobs", because of the class' natural abililty and synergy for self heals

Not at all! It's attractive because of the cool look, because of a scythe, and because it's both fun to play and powerful. Nice heal is a good addition but i would not say it's primary reason.

I agree with rest of your post

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

The bad ones I'd say are Balthazar and Dwayna

Dwayna is by far the best avatar in a lot of situations. The problem is when you're trying to fit one avatar in every possible game situation. Dwayna for instance will be very bad in organized PvP, which is true. But i still consider it an overpowered avatar in RA and PvE, with the right build.

I dont consider a skill bad if there is one single situation where it's good for, and better than alternatives. That's why i wont complain about skills such as Spell Breaker. Yea sure, not much use in PvP is there? But if PvE farmers have some use for it, no problem. The main problem is with skills such as Attacker's Insight and Intimidating Aura, which are utterly useless thrash skills, and the only use of them is propaganda material "oh look how many skills GW has..".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

have multiple test showing the dervish death ratio in all 4v4 battle combinations in multiple testing rounds

What the guy is trying to explain to you, and you're failling to understand is:

The multiple tests and the death ratio is based on the average, not the maximum reach.

In other words, it doesnt say much about profession at all. It says how good are people who play it. I gave you my own tests, and i said that more or less no warrior will kill me in RA 1 on 1 with Dervish i use there mostly, and that i'll be able to kill most of them. I also said that in PvE, in 99% areas no warrior will do as good as my Dervish, neither in killing power nor in tanking power combined. I had PUGs saying to warriors in my team "dude just stay away and stop dying, let Dervish tank". Why? Because i stood alive and also dealed more dmg than they did. This isnt isolated case either.

The bottomline is what i already said - i've seen all kinds of Dervishes and Warriors. I'd take a bad Dervish over bad Warrior in my team any day. But neither can show you how good a profession is.

ps: out of curiosity, how did you estimate who deals more dmg in RA, that Dervish or Warrior? So far it seemed to me you only estimated who lasted longer. It doesnt mean every Dervish is semi-tank. If i play D/A i will outlast most warriors probably, then again, im gonna be much weaker in selfdefense because im mostly focused on high block-ignoring dmg (something u wont see a warrior do that often) with constant cripple.

Quote:

i have literally tried every build i have ever seen

You are the weakest link. Bye!

Quote:

congrats, you killed two warriors. what build/skills were you using, what were they? you leave all of that part out in trying to make people look silly

Wait, and what about you and your tests? Gimme the RA examples of Dervishes vs Warriors. I didnt see ANY, but whenever someone tells you the opposite examples from his experience, you suddenly put different criteria and start negating it: "no no, that cannot be, there must be some mistake".

Quote:

i made the thread to see what others thought of the class themselves

No you didnt. That's just politically correct statement.

If you made the thread for exchange of experiences, you wouldnt reply to every positive experience with "omg i dont know what skills you used, and how you played, but im sure there's a trick somewhere and your Dervish is bad".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil'Zha

For instance, someone stripping my enchantments? Apparently for you, it shuts you down when playing a Dervish, more proof that you are not an experienced Dervish player. When I come up against enchantment strippers (be they Mesmers, Necros, other Dervishes, ect), I change my tactics/play style. As an example of the above, I'll use the stripping against them. I'll leave my enchantments off and close in, using say, Heart of Holy flame on them. If they want to be set on fire while I'm beating the life out of them, they can go ahead and strip it. When I want a heal, I'll put up my Vital Boon and let him strip it - hey, thanks for the heal.

Yup

Exactly why i said that enchant removal only hurts bad Dervishes. I was simply too lazy to go into long argumentation lines.

Quote:

On another note, I agree that there are a lot of Dervish players that take mostly healing skills and that those builds are useless. For some stupid reason though, you used those kinds of builds as a norm for Dervishes

Maybe we should go to elementalist forum and start a thread on how bad and useless eles are. I mean, all we see are those E/D dagger spammers right?

Van vincing · May 08, 2007, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Well first of all I was told that this thread wasn't made to convince sumone to like the character (But ironically the thread itself is called 'I still dun like them' n the first post is about how HORRIBLE n CRAPPY dervishes r n to help show u tht dervishes r not crappy, so basically convincing, admit it it plz

). After that we're gettin huge long posts from dervishers who defend against the false facts on the first post. And till now like I said BEFORE. WE CANT CONVINCE SUMONE TO LIKE SOMETHING THEY DUN ALREADY LIKE.

This post is made to diss dervishes. Of course there'll be two sides. One thing I don't get is, why do you think dervishes suck. Have you seen an invincible monk fightin in pvp. They cant be killed 1v1, neither can the attacker. So you're basically saying the invincible monk and the attacker sucks ass. NOOO!! It just means that they both have an equal build. 1v1 with the same class is always a draw. A smiter monk cant kill a healer, n no way can a healer kill a healer.

And to be honest man, the first sentence says you beat nf with dervish in day 2 with ancient armor. I can believe u can get the ancient armor, but beating nf in TWO days.... ehhh maybe not my friend unless ur 24/2 literally 24ing. Then you said sumthin bout RA. Since you said you got the game like seriously early (by saying u beat the game day 2 after it was out), you seriously think you and the others can become a pro with dervishes straight away??

Sins r good characters, but at the beginning because too many idoits played them like tanks, they're gain a bad reputation after terrible disses. So please don't do this to dervishes, they're terrific characters. Survavibilty, tanking, self healer, be the healer, you name it. Thats whts great about them. And you're saying that any casters can whop dervishes ass. See what happens when they turn into form. At 15 mystism, lyssa has a whopping 90 sec duration, extra 50 dmg to ppl casting and a 30 sec recharge(because it last for 90 secs). Add the incredible IAS, a lyssa next to a caser is, well im not spoiling the suprise, check it out yourself.

As for defeating sins and warriors. Since people who KNOW dervishes already know its built to have sumthin out of every class (THATS THE WHOLE IDEA OF THEM WORSHIPPING ALL FRIGGEN GODS). They'll have a definately counter to every other class. A warrior against a dervish, sandstorm bomber, mystic regen and vigor plus avatar of balthazar will be absolutely insane for a warrior 1v1. As for sins, sins are spikers and are very vulnerable to dmgs cause they dun have much self heal. Try spiking a derv with intervention skills.

BELIEVE ME dervishes are powerful if ur good with it. And well, there are alot of things tht just dun make sense in your first post, like utter make ups to diss dervishes no offense. Like saying you have a darn good build with your first dervish which you beat nf the second day it was out. A darn good build with a new character in two days????? Is tht like joke or what. The second I already mentioned above, BEATING NF IN TWO DAYS is BS. N next, read below. U sed
43 dervs died, 39 of which had monks.. pretty good monks. 10 of which had monks/healers that werent so good...
43 dervs, 39 had monks tht were pretty good, 10 had bad monks. So um let see, 49 dervs in total. These mistakes only appear on sentences that are make ups.
Then we have dervishes dying on teams. Well maybe im still noob because I didn't know that the team that lost WOULD HAVE ALL THEIR PLAYERS KILLED INCLUDING DERVISHES IF THERE WAS ONE.
And ehh how do you know the monks you saw were good, did you get a chance to look at the monks whiles you were fighting....IN RA......
Last of all to reinforce the point bout the RA. Let say that there were 43 dervs(when math says theres 49). And you played 50 matches. You're telling me dervishes appear in 86 percent of your matches..... I dun even see a warrior more than 40 times if I played 50 matches.

And ye sums up my point. Lets just stop posting n let this thread rot away. Its relly pointless and I dun want to have anothe profession destroyed like sins because of selfish people

Mekkakat · May 08, 2007, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Hi.

I would be very interested to see some clarification and explanation and argumentation on why avatars are bad.

Personally, i think they are awesome, except Balthazar for which i still see no use. I use it only, only if i run from one zone to the other if the zones are close to each other and i reach the destination before this avatar expires. On a longer routes i dont even use it for running. Tried, didnt like it that much (except for fun because you look cool).

On the other hand, i still consider Reapers Sweep a bad Dervish elite, which i argumented on several occasions (GvG and HA excluded, as i dont play that atm, but since this isnt GvG/HA board that shouldnt be a problem). I dont know, maybe im wrong, but in that case skill may be ok but it doesnt suit my playstyle

Not at all! It's attractive because of the cool look, because of a scythe, and because it's both fun to play and powerful. Nice heal is a good addition but i would not say it's primary reason.

I agree with rest of your post

Dwayna is by far the best avatar in a lot of situations. The problem is when you're trying to fit one avatar in every possible game situation. Dwayna for instance will be very bad in organized PvP, which is true. But i still consider it an overpowered avatar in RA and PvE, with the right build.

I dont consider a skill bad if there is one single situation where it's good for, and better than alternatives. That's why i wont complain about skills such as Spell Breaker. Yea sure, not much use in PvP is there? But if PvE farmers have some use for it, no problem. The main problem is with skills such as Attacker's Insight and Intimidating Aura, which are utterly useless thrash skills, and the only use of them is propaganda material "oh look how many skills GW has..".

What the guy is trying to explain to you, and you're failling to understand is:

The multiple tests and the death ratio is based on the average, not the maximum reach.

In other words, it doesnt say much about profession at all. It says how good are people who play it. I gave you my own tests, and i said that more or less no warrior will kill me in RA 1 on 1 with Dervish i use there mostly, and that i'll be able to kill most of them. I also said that in PvE, in 99% areas no warrior will do as good as my Dervish, neither in killing power nor in tanking power combined. I had PUGs saying to warriors in my team "dude just stay away and stop dying, let Dervish tank". Why? Because i stood alive and also dealed more dmg than they did. This isnt isolated case either.

The bottomline is what i already said - i've seen all kinds of Dervishes and Warriors. I'd take a bad Dervish over bad Warrior in my team any day. But neither can show you how good a profession is.

ps: out of curiosity, how did you estimate who deals more dmg in RA, that Dervish or Warrior? So far it seemed to me you only estimated who lasted longer. It doesnt mean every Dervish is semi-tank. If i play D/A i will outlast most warriors probably, then again, im gonna be much weaker in selfdefense because im mostly focused on high block-ignoring dmg (something u wont see a warrior do that often) with constant cripple.

You are the weakest link. Bye!

Wait, and what about you and your tests? Gimme the RA examples of Dervishes vs Warriors. I didnt see ANY, but whenever someone tells you the opposite examples from his experience, you suddenly put different criteria and start negating it: "no no, that cannot be, there must be some mistake".

No you didnt. That's just politically correct statement.

If you made the thread for exchange of experiences, you wouldnt reply to every positive experience with "omg i dont know what skills you used, and how you played, but im sure there's a trick somewhere and your Dervish is bad".

Yup

Exactly why i said that enchant removal only hurts bad Dervishes. I was simply too lazy to go into long argumentation lines.

Maybe we should go to elementalist forum and start a thread on how bad and useless eles are. I mean, all we see are those E/D dagger spammers right?

my examples in averaging RA matches based on a non-flux scale ended with the amount of dervishes not contributing to their team, similar to say a geotank/stone dagger spammer. they'd die 2-3 times, and deal little to no damage to my team (which is clear as i watch whoever he was attacking and their life bar), and was killed easily, usually by me (warrior/paragon/ranger, never anti melee classes in any way), or by another damage dealing class such as sin ect. i had a few cases with dervs on my team dying a lot as well, where we didnt have monks, and me an my team had no problem keeping ourselves alive. also, in general pvp, rarely, and i mean rarely have i ever seen someone want a derv for TA/HA. its usually for the Sandstorm spike, and a one trick pony, doesnt cut it for me. again, as i continue, i seemingly must make it very clear that this is based on my experiences, and MANY runs and test, not 3-4 times and kapow, i have a full sheet of data. also, i've never ever ever seen someone say "derv, you tank" in pve... anywhere. everywhere i go in NF is, "glf more, needs *casters*, warrior". never "derv tank thing". also, when going through nf, (and this is with strangers, not friends/guildies/allies ect) i have seen tons of people who stated that they're tired of dervishes, and that the class is a hassle to have to heal, because of constant anticaster/melee moves being used on them. playing in hardmode, every group i have/make, demands no dervs, no sins, end of story. if i were to add one, or someone else were to add on, they'd all leave (which i have added dervs before after seeing a nice skill bar), and while thats not fair to the derv players, thats not even my choice.

when i'm frontline (or midline i.e. ranger for interrupts.) direct damage dealing, i factor three things. support, damage, team utility. my warrior has no problem with damage, he deals it with aplomb, and as far as support, keeping the problems off my monk,bodyblocking, and strategic attacking is all based on experience. as far as utility, thats me as the class, fulfilling the class role, i.e. destroying certain targets quickly/efficiently, without needing but so much help, other than maybe some healing, or hex removal ect. again, this is something i do, but not saying no one else can do, just showing that my overall use, is covering the hardship of healing me, or covering me.

whereas, so far in my test, dervs on my team, other teams, get hit with corrupt/desecrate/defile enchant, for darn near one hit kills. also, most necro moves dealing with enchants end up hurting the entire other team in some way. dervs also get hit with antimelee a lot first not, seeing as they already attack slow, and have creepily high criticals. i see a lot of walking too. if you've ever had to walk or use walking, its when you have to leave or go far from battle to avoid anymore attention/damage, while hexes/conditions wear off, depending on your team setup/situation. this shouldnt happen often, but it happens to the best of us, and its doubly bad when its antimelee, and anticaster, annnd antienchant for the derv, meaning 3 times the risk as say just on of those things. this is all im saying, not saying the class is terrible, or those that play it are, all classes have good players, but when a class has so many weaknesses, its not an attractive class. ripping enchants was taken in some strange way of "im using shatter enchantment for x damage!" and then yes, the derv would.. err... should be fine other than a lil spike. when i say stripped, i mean stripped. im aware this isnt a gvg/ha post, but the post IS in GENERAL dealing with dervs i.e., every criteria, meaning thats where they would get stripped. apost, rendings ect. every class has a counter, an exact stop, but dervs have seemingly too many choices. they dont like damage, obviously antimelee, anticasting ect. i was in observer mode the other day watching dervs freak out and run in circles waiting for energy regen because they got stripped bad during their charge in (mind you, i had to practically wait all day just to find a single match WITH a dervish even playing in GvG :/). these are just examples of things ive seen/done. nothing more, nothing less. practically none of you have given me anything but anger dealing with the subject so far, and as far as Kali saying i dismiss any claims of dervs dealing with warriors, this isnt a Derv vs Warrior post, and im not trying to judge people with claims that they arent good, rather than the dervs (i.e. you guys posting) ARE good, and that the subjects in your one example ever, are seemingly NOT good. someone said they killed two warriors and a whole team alone er.. something like that, and i said well you probably had great self heals ect, and i would have love to have seen THEIR bars. thats not "you must be some heal freak (although most dervs are tbh :P )". i think they said standard Evis builds.. err something. standard evis.. ? evis has been a long time staple, and usually consist of having an E secondary which would almost deff have shock.. thats, in other words, super bad for a derv. one of the dervishes main counters is knockdown (as with MANY classes), which warriors pull off the most/best. i.e., if they were GOOD warriors, you wouldnt have been standing long enough ESPECIALLY with two on you, to attack (which normally would trigger a lot of your heals) or cast spells (to heal... more). so the credibility of the warriors was clamped there. see? there are bad other players too, im not judging the class by one or two new derv players. this is more of an overall, generality of the class. always exceptions, always counters. yes, you did kill 2 warriors head on, and thats sweet, but at the same time, thats one example. keep giving them to me, i like hearing stories about things like that, and yes, i WILL give reasoning as to what may have happened, but i also do that with my OWN test, like when i kill a derv, i factor that he's new, or is just generally uninformed about the class, also, if one on my team dies, that would possibly indicate poor healing from the monk ect. this is all factored in. it wouldnt be fair to say, THAT DERV DIED HE SUCKED THEY ALL SUCK. no.. thats stupid, and on top of that, ignorant. i do many test, showing the general use/utility/support/survivability/damage output (based on solo, and team kills), to try and get the best results. hope that sums that up.. again.

i'm also super-bored with the game, and beginning to lose interest in playing as a dervish with all these test.. anyone have a really gimmicky derv build i could use for fun when i dont feel like being serious lol?

Mekkakat · May 08, 2007, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van vincing

Well first of all I was told that this thread wasn't made to convince sumone to like the character (But ironically the thread itself is called 'I still dun like them' n the first post is about how HORRIBLE n CRAPPY dervishes r n to help show u tht dervishes r not crappy, so basically convincing, admit it it plz

). After that we're gettin huge long posts from dervishers who defend against the false facts on the first post. And till now like I said BEFORE. WE CANT CONVINCE SUMONE TO LIKE SOMETHING THEY DUN ALREADY LIKE.

This post is made to diss dervishes. Of course there'll be two sides. One thing I don't get is, why do you think dervishes suck. Have you seen an invincible monk fightin in pvp. They cant be killed 1v1, neither can the attacker. So you're basically saying the invincible monk and the attacker sucks ass. NOOO!! It just means that they both have an equal build. 1v1 with the same class is always a draw. A smiter monk cant kill a healer, n no way can a healer kill a healer.

And to be honest man, the first sentence says you beat nf with dervish in day 2 with ancient armor. I can believe u can get the ancient armor, but beating nf in TWO days.... ehhh maybe not my friend unless ur 24/2 literally 24ing. Then you said sumthin bout RA. Since you said you got the game like seriously early (by saying u beat the game day 2 after it was out), you seriously think you and the others can become a pro with dervishes straight away??

Sins r good characters, but at the beginning because too many idoits played them like tanks, they're gain a bad reputation after terrible disses. So please don't do this to dervishes, they're terrific characters. Survavibilty, tanking, self healer, be the healer, you name it. Thats whts great about them. And you're saying that any casters can whop dervishes ass. See what happens when they turn into form. At 15 mystism, lyssa has a whopping 90 sec duration, extra 50 dmg to ppl casting and a 30 sec recharge(because it last for 90 secs). Add the incredible IAS, a lyssa next to a caser is, well im not spoiling the suprise, check it out yourself.

As for defeating sins and warriors. Since people who KNOW dervishes already know its built to have sumthin out of every class (THATS THE WHOLE IDEA OF THEM WORSHIPPING ALL FRIGGEN GODS). They'll have a definately counter to every other class. A warrior against a dervish, sandstorm bomber, mystic regen and vigor plus avatar of balthazar will be absolutely insane for a warrior 1v1. As for sins, sins are spikers and are very vulnerable to dmgs cause they dun have much self heal. Try spiking a derv with intervention skills.

BELIEVE ME dervishes are powerful if ur good with it. And well, there are alot of things tht just dun make sense in your first post, like utter make ups to diss dervishes no offense. Like saying you have a darn good build with your first dervish which you beat nf the second day it was out. A darn good build with a new character in two days????? Is tht like joke or what. The second I already mentioned above, BEATING NF IN TWO DAYS is BS. N next, read below. U sed
43 dervs died, 39 of which had monks.. pretty good monks. 10 of which had monks/healers that werent so good...
43 dervs, 39 had monks tht were pretty good, 10 had bad monks. So um let see, 49 dervs in total. These mistakes only appear on sentences that are make ups.
Then we have dervishes dying on teams. Well maybe im still noob because I didn't know that the team that lost WOULD HAVE ALL THEIR PLAYERS KILLED INCLUDING DERVISHES IF THERE WAS ONE.
And ehh how do you know the monks you saw were good, did you get a chance to look at the monks whiles you were fighting....IN RA......
Last of all to reinforce the point bout the RA. Let say that there were 43 dervs(when math says theres 49). And you played 50 matches. You're telling me dervishes appear in 86 percent of your matches..... I dun even see a warrior more than 40 times if I played 50 matches.

And ye sums up my point. Lets just stop posting n let this thread rot away. Its relly pointless and I dun want to have anothe profession destroyed like sins because of selfish people

i have a hard time reading your writing..

and you're right, thanks, i did make a typo. its supposed to say 50 matches, 43 with healers, 10 of those out of 43 were seemingly terrible. (based on watching their bar, watching the team heals, and actually, in a few cases, asking to see the bar). the good ones were based on basically looking at their skills here and there (thats not hard to do), and their output of heals. also, yes, i DID have at least one derv in almost 80+ percent of my teams, which is what made me so frustrated as to start the testing in RA.

also.. what game do you play that you CANT beat the game as far as pve in at least 3-4 days??? there was a lot of hype with NF, and i play A LOT, so YES, i did have 3 other guildmates and myself slam through NF. 2 of them are people that live near me, and we stayed up practically two days in a row to do it, only doing the primaries ect. its not hard at all.. we also wanted to get our dervs SSs (and paragons/other classes) high end game armors to be the pics used on Guildwiki to show what they look like in the armor section (which mine wasnt used

). so as far as that goes.. uh.. ok, there was like 50 people doing the final mission by day two lol, we had no problem making a group for any mission, seeing as MANY people wanted to beat it asap. as far as skills, i have a crazy high cap for balth, that was maxed way before NF came out (i have every skill item/unlocked), that allowed me to basically unlock EVERYTHING dealing with dervs/paragons in the first week, and NO i did NOT have a "darn good build" when i went through NF, i had a great pve build, seeing as pve is something you should be able to complete with your hands sawed off. (other than maybe HM). i then, after completion, went back and tried out all the builds i could find, and started using him in some low end pvp (i.e. RA/TA).

and finally, the OP had nothing to do with how HOORRRIBLE and CRAAAAPPY the class is, just my experience, and how i wish that that experience was a better one, because i'd like to enjoy this class as you all seemingly do. convince me? maybe not to the point of loving them, but at least now i dont feel so inclined as to always reject them from my group

. a couple people have made some nice statements that already have me playing dervish in some low end pvp (ra/ta), and actually having fun with the class for once, just messing with some basic damage builds (reapers/dis dag/harriers reaper ect..). i think convincing me isnt hard, seeing as at the moment, i've seen some good stuff with the bad, which is all i wanted in the first place during my testing.

Taurus · May 08, 2007, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

...can anyone say paladin??

or worse yet.. healing hands wammo??...

Ermm... a dervish was one of the key spikers AND pressure in the build that won the last championship. It's a fact, go look for the build somewhere in the GW website.

Van vincing · May 08, 2007, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Hmm I was expecting a rude response, and umm i typed this on computer so its not exactly writing so I dont get why you find it hard to read (although if the problem is because im using shorten words like sumthin or dun then my apologies sorry)

Well good Im glad this class don't seem to be that bad to you after all. If you really want to be convinced, I suggest you try out lyssa with any casters or even melee or range characters with skills that have at least 1 second cast time, then you'll see why I love them so much. Also, you'll realise that this class as I mentioned before is suppose to be a part of every other class because this class worships every god. Therefore, you'll notice they heal themselves alot because they also have quite a alot of healing skills (and the only spike preventing skills in the game, the watchful and faithful intervention, as as a enchantment that last a long time so that you can benefit from skills like mystic sweep or mysic regen etc.)

If you thinking now how dervishes can spike or tank (lyssa is already a spiker herself). All dervishes need to do is have skills like reapers sweep or wearying strike combined with avatar of melandru (you are condition free for like 70 secs) then having insane damage skills like mystic sweep, eremites sweep, chilling victory, wild blow (warrior) and there you go you have a spike (note that if you need speed for spike, use the best IAS in the game, the heart of fury. Mine last for 20 secs and has a 30 secs recharge time, you can use it 66 percent of the time, insane or too insane??)

I do apologize for my rudeness in my previous post because I don't want another class backlisted by everyone because of some people who don't favor this class. When faction was introduced, everyone was introduced to a new class, people played sins like tanks, giving them a bad reputation. Afterwards, many people who cant play them began to spam insults and disses on sins, finally sins have a bad name and will no longer be accepted in groups. Same thing seems to be happening to dervs, except now that we have more experienced players, dervs will no longer need to worry too much about getting discriminated or rejected in groups

Mekkakat · May 08, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

i understand what you're saying, and its cool about before, i wasnt expecting to be liked by many for certain viewpoints

.

I like Lyssa for its use, i generally dont like avatars, just me personally. i do like melan/weary, but again, its very conditional, and im just finicky about stuff like that

. i've never been a fan of Heart of Fury. nice IAS, but without being able to be kept up indef, like say Flail or Aggressive Refrain ect, its again, too conditional for my liking (although i do use it seeing as its they're only IAS). i agree also with the consumer hype as far as how people could possibly utilize the class incorrectly, and as i've stated before, poor playing skills dont factor my judgment, because thats something you can not control in a test. i think i might try a new Lyssa build a few have been tossing about for some new test, its looks promising, and has back up for when she runs out on you

. thanks again Van

Edit by Nkah Sennyt:

Mekkakat · May 08, 2007, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurus

Ermm... a dervish was one of the key spikers AND pressure in the build that won the last championship. It's a fact, go look for the build somewhere in the GW website.

again, in some of my other post i noted this build in particular (its my fav derv build) its the D/A disrupting dagger build. this is a very good, viable build, with great pressure/spiking, and thats 100% true. it was a good thing they changed to a build with 2 of them though, that last match was ridiculous

Darkpower Alchemist · May 08, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Ok, this thread is more entertainment than fact in its current state. The Facts are as follows:

1) The thread is based on opinion.
2) The thread is a total wash due to the nature of the "argument" not the topic of "discussion".
3) The thread was started on the premiss of a negative opinion about a popular and provenly effective profession.

To be honest, the Dervish are very effective when, like other character classes, are played in a proper and rational manner. By this, I mean to play to their strengths and avoid their weaknesses or cover them as best as possible.

The elite skills of the Dervish class are by far some of the most powerful currently in existence in the game. The forms are all useful and awesome when applied in the proper situations.

Balthazar is the Tank of Tanks, mix that form with [skill=card]Mystic Regeneration[/skill][skill=card]Mystic Vigor[/skill][skill=card]Heart Of Fury[/skill] and you have an IAS,a regen of +9, and self healing of at/around 300+hp upon experation and /or removal of the enchantments, not to mention the added hp for the duration of MV. Also, the energy returns from each enchantments removal/expiration.

And that's just 4 skills on an 8 skill bar. Imagine changing Balthazar for any other elite form, and the dervish is an awesome force on any battlefield that can't be ignored.

I have used my warrior to kill MANY dervish in the past, yet that hasn't taken away from the class' ability and potential. I was totally stomped by a derv using the 3 enchantments I mentioned and Balthazar when I first fought him. I rerolled and came with a riposte build and still never took him down beyond 3/4 hp. So I began to REALLY study the dervish, to find a potent weakness for them that didn't take my warrior out of his element. The dervs greatest weakness is its greatest strength, but rending them off isn't always the best thing to do, since it heals to some degree with the removal of the enchantments.

[skill=big]Rending Aura[/skill]

This pretty little enchantment is almost never used in any build, and thus proved very helpful to my warrior against rival Dervs. In my rematch with my derv opponent, we were at a total stalemate when I brought my own derv out with this enchantment, due to the fact that neither of us had an interupt.

It was like two gods on a grassy bluff doing battle forever!

I then took that build, with some tweaks into RA and did very well, even when I lost, my team still was better with me there. The derv has much utility when paired with a Protection monk with mostly enchantments. The survivablitiy of a derv is very high, even in a heavy hex/degen scenario.

That is my take on the derv, it is capable, not the opposite as the OP believes.

Mekkakat · May 08, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

well put Darkpower. and you're right, this entire post is for entertainment.. like i said.. im bored, testing is just something to do

.

i used Rending Aura in my build too. Harriers Grasp ftw as well. wind prayers are by far better than earth imo. what i dont like is the whole..

2 dervs left, battling each other ftw!!! who will come out on top!?!?!

... 40 minute battle cause of all the healing.. lol.. survivability isnt all there is to the game.. but thats of course a specific example. thanks again Darkpower, and my apologies if the negativity that was implemented into the OP offended you, again, its just an opinion, im not out for blood

.

pingu666 · May 08, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

earth is more tank or pve, wind more pvp

Van vincing · May 09, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Removing dervs enchantment is a great idea, and alot of people actually tried that. However, note that dervish enchantments have two benefits. One for when It begins till the end, the other is the end. Sometimes, the end of a derv enchantment is more of a nuisense than having it on, like vital boon (which occasionally used as a cover enchantment). Vital boon allows an insane heal when it ends, and the recharge time is only 8 seconds. Also, skills like balthzars fury or staggering force need to end to maximize its effects. Try using vital boon on pvp against a enchatment remover, then they'll know removing enchatment aint always the best.

BTW Im really interested in that dervish/sin build. Can someone show me the full instruction of how its like and used?

Batou of Nine · May 09, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

I in no way am trying to convince you dervishes are superior or inferior, nor am i trying to argue your opinions. I am trying to point out that basing ones opinions on "tests and recordings" is simply not sensible. You act as if the class can be proven as inherently bad (or flawed) through quantifiable data. Which it cannot.

If the 5 points i created did not point to that fact, then i guess i am not very good at making a point. I don't care if you did or did not say that you think something is objective or subjective... My point, once again, was that the testing you believe to be conducting in an "educated and fair" manner is in fact meaningless. Attempting to "quantify" class effectiveness is in actuality your attempt at objectifying something that cannot be objectified, that is why i state that you insist on pusing subjective matter as objective matter.

It is like looking at two books, completely identical, text is completely identical, size, content, EVERYTHING about them is identical, except for one thing. One has a black cover, the other has a white cover. Now supposed you recorded how many people preferred one color over the other. Then finding that more people like the black covered book, you came to the conclusion that the white book was somehow "flawed" and inferior to the black book. Does that not seem silly?

Yes, by all means that is a perfect example. With that in mind, the overal effectiveness of a class in Guild Wars cannot be quantified by tracking how many players are effective with dervish builds. That recording *itself* is an opinion according to what you hold as "effective". And that will ultimatly lead you to any conclusion you already held in terms of each individual recording. The example provided is in regard to the fact that this game is based on balance, that all aspects will have some sort of counters to them, and some builds will be great, and others will not be so great. Quantifying rational is just not sensible for a game based on balance...

Again, out of the 5 points i had previously laid out, the point *should* have been that your "testing" to prove your point are flawed and unnecessary. The assasins saw the SAME trend. Being nit-picked because many many many players were not good at the class. So the overall community feel towards the class was fairly hostile. Then as builds became more known, and their usefulness was being explored in PvP, they all of a sudden became a fairly common staple in all aspects of PvP...

In the end, overall player effectiveness does not equal overall class effectiveness. Stop trying to quantifiy it.

cheers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

im confused... when did i ever say what i was saying was all objective? i specifically posted that this is all based on opinions based on facts, meaning that its opinions educated by firsthand and third person observations.

maybe reading the other post would have helped you while posting a retort to what seemingly was me stating that im right, you're all wrong, but i also specifically said that i was composing a full test, and the the RA part, was literally a tenth of what i've done so far. i have a few spreadsheets im going to upload soon with damage mechanics/builds for a different post, dealing with how (and again, to state and make sure you know what i mean is reflecting an opinion, and NOT objective statements) i feel as though dervishes have a higher risk/liability rate, and are outclassed by its other melee/physically ranged characters. again, i apologize for the 50th time in this thread if i seem like i'm trying to tell all of you dervish players you suck because of your class, because no, thats not what i said, nor mean, all im saying, is that the class, and the community in general TO THIS POINT has reflected a larger community of bad players/builds, than all the other classes, and in cohorts with the style of the class, and the classes heavy enchant/spell/melee/stance mixture, causes a few, if not many counters, where as its brother and sister classes would only have to deal with a fraction of those counters.

i.e. counters for melee

just a few) hex/blind/weakness
counters for casters : (just a few) daze backfire general mesmer use/interrupts.
counters for stances: (just a few) wild moves in general

where as a warrior would only have counters to 2, eles to one, ect.. thats just part of my opinion as to the liability part. again, totally not trying to objectify the players that clearly know what they're doing, they still play, and always will play great, which i hope are the people posting, and i believe ARE the people posting, thus why i would even post here. im looking for YOUR input as to what makes YOU enjoy the class, and what makes it a great class to play.. so far only a few have done that in this post, seeing as most are still trying to argue with my opinions. im just trying to get a feel for the dervish community and how its operating, not to stir up trouble cause i dont enjoy the class as much as others, thats all.

my test, while not being finished as of yet, are still accurate and not biased in any way, and on top of that, are in multiple aspects of the game with multiple testing subjects/trials. so far i have 100 ra matches, 100 ta, and 50 GvG and HA. i have over 20 mainstream builds and 5.. not so mainstream builds being observed/used in all pvp, and in pve. so its not like RA was my only test, because i do understand novice players ect.. but this is also RA with 100 different dervishes (i recorded the names), so its not like im going for broke on some nooby dude rushing in every match 90 times. im being as fair as possible, to construct an educated opinion, and i think in all of that, i am growing to enjoy the class more than before (not saying i like like it or anything

). i'm honestly only even doing this because i've become bored with the game and cant wait for GWEN lol.. if im not testing, im playing Para trying to finish getting my 10th maxed title.. (darn you cartog!!!)

please start posting builds/ideas/comments dealing with your dervish experience, seeing as thats what this is about, to aid my testing, thanks