Curse

CagedinSanity · Oct 04, 2007, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Posted this in my guild forums, they showed Praise. Though I am expecting BAD feedback here. I'll post anyway because this mess works.

I will work on some tips for a Form Derv, if you don't mind. I will edit and change this post as notes come to mind.

Since I can't figure out how the forum-build-post-thing works, I'll have to explain it manually.

=FORM DERVISH=

Beginning notes;

This is mostly self experience and may or may not be fact.
Most of this is based on Normal Mode
I am by no means an expert and will happily edit this post for accuracy, within reason.
I have never done GvG so I cannot vouch the effectiveness of forms in GvG.

Forms can be insanely powerful if used correctly. They're often thought as gimmick skills and I've personally been called a "nub derv" for using forms. They've been nerfed many times over. Melandru's health bonus was cut in half, Grenth's length was cut 20 seconds or so. The Dervish Forms have suffered some wear and tear but I can give you some notes on my past experiences and what I still do today.

=CAPPING THEM=

Avatar of Balthazar, From Guildwiki:

This boss can be a real challenge. Her double damage can rip an entire party to pieces if they stand close together. It is recommended to spread out and use skills such as Protective Spirit.
Blindness can work wonders here.
Consider bringing some interrupt skills to interrupt her when she's using Avatar of Balthazar.
If you are having trouble defeating the Avatar of Balthazar, clear out the guards first, then run away. Then attack as soon as she changes back to her original form. It's much easier to kill her while her form is recharging.
The Acolyte sometimes spawn with a mob that is without a Kournan Priest, which makes the task of clearing the mobs much easier.
Another way to defeat the Avatar of Balthazar is to have a tank supported by protection monks.

Personal take: A good prot monk, an SS necro, and an empathy mesmer will help greatly. Preferably a player-group. 2-4 dervs can sub as "Tanks". (off-tanking)

The Rest are hero/henchable. If you suffer a wipe the first time, consider looking and reordering your Casters. I have found from personal experience that after wiping a first time, bringing interrupts will help kill their avatar casting very early. Pay attention to the boss mob that carries the form elite, and wait for it to run out then rush to interrupt a possible re-cast.

Melandru might be slightly difficult due to the increased aggro and added groups that may come your way.
Lyssa has the potential to be difficult if your party consists of casters.
Grenth is easy due to his small group.
Dwayna is relatively simple.
Balthazar has been mentioned above, I couldn't have explained it better than GuildWiki.

=USING THEM=

You need to anticipate what kind of enemies you are going to face before you enter a zone so you know which Form to equip. OR you can choose to fit one type of Anti-[class] role and stick with one form for a while. My personal favorite? Balthazar and Lyssa. But they all fit different goals, I can give a quick rundown summary.

Balthazar: Solo-capping shrines, snaring, off-tanking (WoW term but it fits here too) and holy damage. Holy damage conversion good against many undead and some necromancers who use that extra holy damage insignia. Decent versus other tanks and Dervishes.
-PvP Capability: Decent
-PvE Capability: Better

Dwayna: Self healing, self hex removal. Good for survivability. But the health bonus may not compliment your attacks, such as slow recharge times that are 8 seconds or more. Good to use versus necromancers and mesmers.
-PvP Capability: Decent
-PvE Capability: Decent

Grenth: Enchantment ripping off of other people. With 12 myst, you only have 38 seconds with this form (Eternal Aura is a must have for PvE-ers). Cold damage. Easiest Capture. Good to use versus monks and Dervishes.
-PvP Capability: Fair to Best (The 38 second isn't good, and the cold damage is horrible versus rangers)
-PvE Capability: Not recommended to Fair (Eternal Aura)

Lyssa: High spike damage against almost every class. +40 and more damage to anyone activating a skill, which is nearly everything. (Do note, all spells are skills, but not all skills are spells.) And a very good energy bonus. Very good form to have. Possibly dangerous to cap. Best to use versus elementalists and mesmers and other casters.
-PvP Capability: Best
-PvE Capability: Better

Melandru: Very good health bonus, works well with Chilling Victory, which does bonus damage if you have more health than foe. Immunity to conditions. Perfect against rangers, as well as assassins and warriors who like to stack conditions against you.
-PvP Capability: Better
-PvE Capability: Fair (conditions aren't *as* heavy, but it's worth bringing to areas where they are heavy)

=BUILD=

It's good to bring at least 2-3 spammable attacks, because many of the forms require you to use an attack skill for their effect to activate. Maybe more attacks if you can sacrifice an enchantment, or res. 3-4 enchantments, must include Eternal Aura for a perma-form, whatever you have. Res optional (entirely depends on your mindset. Is it a derv's job to res? Can the party survive with one person not having res?) Some type of self healing would be good such as Mystic Regen. An attack speed enchantment will help with Grenth and Lyssa to get more of those hits in.

When someone gives me a n00b guide to posting builds on here, I will post the two form builds I use.

~ Dan ~ · Oct 04, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Pretty decent guide, great for newbies as it explains capping methods well and outlines the strengths / weaknesses of each form.

Quote:

Grenth:-PvP Capability: Fair to Best (The 38 second isn't good, and the cold damage is horrible versus rangers)
-PvE Capability: Not recommended to Fair (Eternal Aura)

This is true, although i wouldn't rate it at fair to best for PvP. It's just not usable anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

[i]Balthazar:
-PvP Capability: Crap
-PvE Capability: Crapper

Fixed.

CagedinSanity · Oct 04, 2007, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Balthazar shouldn't be the first choice for a form, but it's worth having for a select few occasions. I know people hate it but it does have it's uses.

Stormlord Alex · Oct 04, 2007, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

Balthazar: Bunch of weak buffs, hobbled together to form a weak elite. No real use, apart from flagging someone as an idiot.
-PvP Capability: None
-PvE Capability: Shit

... Fixed, in more words than Dan.

CagedinSanity · Oct 04, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

I won't bother defending balthazar then, since people obviously don't listen.

~ Dan ~ · Oct 04, 2007, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

... Fixed, in more words than Dan.

I prefer your version

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

people obviously don't listen.

Maybe it's you not listening.

milkflopance · Oct 04, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

[skill]avatar of melandru[/skill]Perfect against rangers

It changes your attack damage to earth, so it's not really the best option for them

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

I've personally been called a "nub derv" for using forms.

Proberbly because you had this: [skill]avatar of balthazar[/skill]

As Dan and Alex said, Balthazar is awful. If you want holy damage take Aura of holy might (even though it doesn't say, it changes damage to holy).

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

When someone gives me a n00b guide to posting builds on here, I will post the two form builds I use.

use the [skill ] [/skill] tags around the skill's name for the skill icons. (without the space in the bracket)

Like this: [skill]healing hands[/skill]

Please no balthazar builds though

Tab · Oct 04, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

i hav no idea wt n e of u r talking bout. i run aob regularly and it is nt bad. b4 u cal me a noob, i m rank 9 wich is probably bettr then u! so there u gt owned lol

Stormlord Alex · Oct 04, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

i hav no idea wt n e of u r talking bout. i run aob regularly and it is nt bad. b4 u cal me a noob, i m rank 9 wich is probably bettr then u! so there u gt owned lol

I pwn u wit soul leech nad riposteh nub
lolol

Cebe · Oct 04, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

I won't bother defending balthazar then, since people obviously don't listen.

Ok.

Look at Avatar of Balthazar.

Now look at Avatar of Lyssa.

NOW do you see why it's bad?

No?

Ok...

[wiki]Faithful Intervention[/wiki]
[wiki]Avatar of Lyssa[/wiki]
[wiki]Aura of Holy Might[/wiki]
[wiki]Eternal Aura[/wiki]
[wiki]Heart of Fury[/wiki]
[wiki]Radiant Scythe[/wiki]
[wiki]Eremite's Attack[/wiki]
[wiki]Mystic Sweep[/wiki]

Try that, then come back and say Avatar of Balthazar comes anywhere close that

Tab · Oct 04, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

sry m8 bt u jst dn kno wt ur on bwt.

milkflopance · Oct 04, 2007, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Ok.

Look at Avatar of Balthazar.

Now look at Avatar of Lyssa.

NOW do you see why it's bad?

lolz no. u cnt tank wit lisa nub.

/endwammomode

What i propose we do with the skill:

Coloneh · Oct 04, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

this "guide" is pretty pathetic. very short, no information you wouldnt be able to find on wiki, and (no offense) it really dosnt sound like you have tried or even capped all of the forms. I wouldnt suggest anyone use this info. sorry

CagedinSanity · Oct 05, 2007, 02:04 AM // 02:04

For the record, I use Lyssa almost 90% of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

this "guide" is pretty pathetic. very short, no information you wouldnt be able to find on wiki, and (no offense) it really dosnt sound like you have tried or even capped all of the forms. I wouldnt suggest anyone use this info. sorry

Then you're just being an asshole, I capped them all months ago and who are you to assume I don't have all the forms.

Melandru vs. Rangers is mostly geared towards the conditions and not damage dealing.

Coloneh · Oct 05, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

you have no info about capping them in a "guide". and you mentioned lyssa being easier to cap than balthazar. im not trying to be mean, but if you wanted to make a guide maybe you should have some more information.

Str0b0 · Oct 05, 2007, 03:52 AM // 03:52

I have to agree with Coloneh on some points, although I'm sometimes a little nicer about things. My one real beef with the guide is that you do leave out some information, such as what weapons work best with what forms. Lots of people like Zealous for all of them, personally I only use zealous with Melandru, I like vamp with lyssa and dwayna. Also balthazar capping shouldn't really be mentioned as a difficult thing. Melee shutdown beats balthazar. I ran an EDA build to cap him and it was the easiest cap of the avatars. The hardest was melandru because of condition immunity and the health boost and lyssa was no push over either.

As for your ratings on the avatars I have to say that you couldn't possibly be more wrong. Balthazar has little to no use in PvE unless you are running. Melandru should probably be rated best for PvE because of condition immunity. This is not because every enemy in the game can drop a condition on you but because of a little skill called Wearying Strike. This is a spammable deep wound skill with the bad side effect of hitting you with weakness. With Melandru up constantly via Eternal Aura, you can spam that 5e deep wound attack and if you think Deep wound isn't useful in PvE then you are very very wrong. Second best for PvE is Lyssa because of spikes. Third is Dwayna because of the healing and hex removal. Balthazar and Grenth don't merit a mention for PvE.

I also think your build advice is a bit haphazard. You don't really mention the need for your skills to have synergy. Here quick example. This is my melandru build.
[skill]wearying strike[/skill][skill]reap impurities[/skill][skill]zealous sweep[/skill][skill]aura of thorns[/skill][skill]mystic regeneration[/skill][skill]eternal aura[/skill][skill]heart of fury[/skill][skill]Avatar of Melandru[/skill]

Now do you see the synergy here? I didn't just pick any three spammable attack skills. Wearying strike takes advantage of Melandru's condition immunity to allow me to reduce enemy hitpoints by 1/5. Reap impurities, yes it's a 10 E attack but it has decent added damage and nets me a nice heal since everyone I hit initially will have a condition. Zealous sweep because melandru has a high energy cost and even with a zealous scythe this helps if you know how to pick your target and keep your enemies bunched. Aura of thorns helps me keep the enemies bunched up and in range and when it ends adds bleeding which works frightfully well against an already deep wounded enemy.Heart of Fury helps me keep the attacks coming quickly and helps my energy gain since I'm hitting more times with my zealous scythe. I have been known to run a res in place of mystic regen because between Melandru's health buff and the health gain from reap impurities you should stay pretty well healed. Now my Lyssa build uses the same enchantments because they are just plain useful. My attack skills though are different. I use [skill]Farmer's Scythe[/skill],[skill]Chilling Victory[/skill] and [skill]Victorious Sweep[/skill] instead. Now I also use a vamp scythe for this as well. Farmer's scythe is a spammable + damage attack that also recharges instantly if you hit more than one foe, since I know how to cluster them up properly this means I am usually getting the +21 damage from the skill and the +41 from lyssa since they are more than likely activating a skill. Chilling victory is there for more spike damage. By itself it already has potent spike potential in clustered enemy groups and if you add on to that the +41 from Lyssa this is a no brainer even at 10e. Victorious sweep is there for a supplemental self heal since with lyssa's spikey goodness meeting the condition is not that hard.

I commend your effort but on this forum we are used to slightly more comprehensive guides. You should see the sticky one at the top of this thread. When it was first written it was the best dervish guide out there really. I think it is sort of out of date now but it's a good place to look if you want to know how to do a guide correctly.

Warskull · Oct 05, 2007, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Avatar of Melandru is the best. It is the best offense because you can spam wearying strike non-stop. It is the best defense because you are completely immune to conditions and have +100 health (usually pushing you to 700+ hp.) It also combos well with chilling victory, victorious sweep, ect.

CagedinSanity · Oct 05, 2007, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

you have no info about capping them in a "guide". and you mentioned lyssa being easier to cap than balthazar. im not trying to be mean, but if you wanted to make a guide maybe you should have some more information.

It's designed to be a basic rundown.

And thank you Str0b0 for disagreeing in a bit more tactiful manner.

Coloneh · Oct 05, 2007, 05:22 AM // 05:22

dont make me out to be a completer jerk here. i was only pointing out that you posted a useless guide with almost no information. cmon, str0b0's post was longer than your whole guide

moko · Oct 05, 2007, 01:05 PM // 13:05

i like how you put Lyssa over Melandru in PvP, i also like how you copied the information off Wiki, way to go, next time i'll just make sure to use wiki because i'm sure i'll find more information there.