Curse

Tyla · Oct 23, 2008, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Orders doesn't work with AoHM; Holy damage isn't physical.

@Dmitri;

Equal in effectiveness? Too much energy management and no deep wound. Too much energy management often means you should remove X skill and use something else instead.

And yes, a Derv without an elite scythe attack or an avatar is, pretty much, wasting part of his efficiency.

Darkside · Oct 23, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Orders doesn't work with AoHM; Holy damage isn't physical.

@Dmitri;

Equal in effectiveness? Too much energy management and no deep wound. Too much energy management often means you should remove X skill and use something else instead.

And yes, a Derv without an elite scythe attack or an avatar is, pretty much, wasting part of his efficiency.

Finally! Another voice of reason...marry me!

-Lotus- · Oct 23, 2008, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

IMHO, every1 who says that a derv without elite scythe attacks or avatars is a useless derv, should've just stayed with Ursan.

is there some sort of reasoning behind this or do you just like going against the crowd just for the sake of it?

Burst Cancel · Oct 24, 2008, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

IMHO, every1 who says that a derv without elite scythe attacks or avatars is a useless derv, should've just stayed with Ursan.

Right, because Ursan is at all comparable to a single skill that allows you to apply DW covered by Bleeding every 3 seconds. Oh wait.

The reason you guys are struggling to post non-braindead builds is pretty simple: the OP's requirements are completely idiotic. Naturally, any build that conforms to the OP's requirements will be completely idiotic. I'm surprised that so many of you fail to see this.

Zealous Vow? Onslaught? Ebon Dust Aura? Seriously, who do you guys think you're kidding?

Abnormai · Oct 24, 2008, 04:08 AM // 04:08

I don't have the time tonight to post everything I've found and learned so far, and comments to everyone,will probably tomorrow.

But, burst, So your saying half of the elites that this game has introduced is useless? and few of them are actually useful?

Tomorrow to come; the results part 1

Stealth Bomberman · Oct 24, 2008, 04:11 AM // 04:11

the "best" build comes from within....if u get a build from one of us, might as well look on wiki

P.S. i agree with burst, why are so many ppl posting builds...there are diff builds for diff areas of pve. if u look into 1 build for the entire campaign, u havent learned anything.

think of ur own build, learn from ur mistakes, thats how u get better last time i checked

-Lotus- · Oct 24, 2008, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnormai

burst, So your saying half of the elites that this game has introduced is useless? and few of them are actually useful?

thats the situation. I feel pretty confident saying that less than half of the skills in this game are actually useful.

EDIT: burst made an epic post, read down

Burst Cancel · Oct 24, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnormai

But, burst, So your saying half of the elites that this game has introduced is useless? and few of them are actually useful?

It's more than half; in reality, all but a handful of elites are sub-par. And this has been the case pretty much since day one; this isn't some kind of new or surprising phenomenon. Part of learning how to play GW is understanding what separates good skills and skill combinations from bad ones.

Fortunately for most of the I-Don't-Give-A-Shit, Just-Want-To-Have-Fun casual crowd, PvE is so stupidly easy that you can beat it with any skillbar. Of course, this has the side effect of making those players think that all skills are "good", simply because they "work in PvE" - not realizing, of course, that an empty skillbar "works in PvE" as well.

Abnormai · Oct 24, 2008, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

It's more than half; in reality, all but a handful of elites are sub-par. And this has been the case pretty much since day one; this isn't some kind of new or surprising phenomenon. Part of learning how to play GW is understanding what separates good skills and skill combinations from bad ones.

Fortunately for most of the I-Don't-Give-A-Shit, Just-Want-To-Have-Fun casual crowd, PvE is so stupidly easy that you can beat it with any skillbar. Of course, this has the side effect of making those players think that all skills are "good", simply because they "work in PvE" - not realizing, of course, that an empty skillbar "works in PvE" as well.

Not exactly....

If a group of 8 people went into hard mode on -any- dungeon, with an empty skill bar, that really wouldn't work, now would it?

and it would not really be efficient if your going into a [pug] and one, or two people didn't have any skills on their skill bar, or a below average build for the area, either. It would slow things down, and take more of your time & effort.

I think that in any given situation, there is a skill bar that fits it best. PvE is about changing, however there are general builds that can work in a lot of situations. I did say a [few] instead of one, that I was going to switch with.

I have played some PvP, enough to know many skills that aren't that great in PvE are in PvP, and vice-versa, enough to understand that not -all- skills can be used in -all- situations....

But to label one elite as godly, is going a little over the top also [to everyone]

Tyla · Oct 24, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Name one skill that is stronger than Wounding Strike for general use, then you're talking.

-Lotus- · Oct 24, 2008, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnormai

Not exactly....

If a group of 8 people went into hard mode on -any- dungeon, with an empty skill bar, that really wouldn't work, now would it?

a full team with 8 empty bars would probably not work, yes. but 7 mediocre bars and a blank ele wanding would do just fine.

incredibly bad builds are able to get through PvE pretty easily. so people think that thier bad builds are effective. Good players will always be trying to maximize their build. that means they will be using wounding strike, not AoB because "it makez mi looks koolz"

Quote:

and it would not really be efficient if your going into a [pug] and one, or two people didn't have any skills on their skill bar, or a below average build for the area, either. It would slow things down, and take more of your time & effort.

I think that in any given situation, there is a skill bar that fits it best. PvE is about changing, however there are general builds that can work in a lot of situations. I did say a [few] instead of one, that I was going to switch with.

he didnt say empty skillbars were good... a decent build is always going to be best.

Dmitri3 · Oct 24, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

Finally! Another voice of reason...marry me!

Voice of reason, in your own secluded and isolated way...

------------------------

Anyways, here's my evaluation of those so said "elite" and "godly" scythe Elites:

Wounding Strike 5 energy, 3 recharge
Elite Scythe Attack. If this attack hits, target foe suffers from Bleeding for 5...17...20 seconds. If you are under the effects of an enchantment, target foe also suffers from a Deep Wound for 5...17...20 seconds.

Deep Wound, is very good in PvP, but in PvE it sucks. It's effect is capped at 100hp (read up on it).
Bleeding, oh mighty bleeding... Really kills stuff with 1000 health, does it?
No damage bonus, if spammed: same as auto-attack (and you're not a warrior, so you don't get armor penetration on attacks).
Okay, the only thing you can do with this elite: spread Deep Wound and Bleeding, switch target every second hit. But then again, if Deep Wound is removed: you didn't do any damage at all. Your "godly" 100 damage, you can keep it.
Covered Deep Wound with bleeding makes it good? While devastating in PvP, apart from occasional Martyr or Restore Conditions, you won't see many conditions removal in PvE... and in case of RC, you will just heal enemy instead of actually doing any damage, not counting your auto-attack and not "non-godly" non-elite attacks.

Reaper's Sweep 5 energy, 8 recharge
Elite Scythe Attack. If this attack hits, you deal +10...34 damage. If your target was below 50% Health, you also inflict a Deep Wound for 5...17 seconds.

A bit better, nice damage, but sadly, conditional Deep Wound. Only use is to finish mobs that would die anyway. Bleh on recharge if you actually want to do any pressure with it, and not spike.

------------------------

Avatars, I'll do it in a way to slightly consume less of my time... and reader's time, cause, yes, of course, I do want you all to like me after you read this.

Avatar of Balthazar: Tank. An "elite" version of warrior with sprint...
Avatar of Dwayna: I actually like this for a tank, especially in a dungeons with all the hexes. But it's still just a tank.
Avatar of Grenth: PvP only.
Avatar of Melandru: Conditions tank, yey! Now RC, Foul Feast or even Mend Ailment is totally useless. Also include it in energy problems if you use it right before battle.
Avatar of Lyssa: This screams one word: daggers. This is actually how you turn a dervish into assassin... *wink* Lyynyyrd *wink*. This form is feared because if you actually use anything with a cast time, form does a nice spike... thus effectively shutting down the caster, by making your opponent's fear control him. In PvE, sometimes they just auto-attack (and do 300 a hit), sometimes they just wand... and sometimes you actually want to kill something before they cast a spell that can effectively wipe a party... or you know, interrupt it (thus no damage from Avatar).

------------------------

As for "too much energy management". I never heard that having a lot of energy is bad. If you can manage it with 1 or 2 non-elite skills with just the same results (never running out of energy, spammable attacks, spammable self-heals, always maxed out Radiant Scythe...), then yes, it's actually better to use your elite on something else... And don't count monk spamming enchantments on you so it can trigger Mysticism, cause then you might as well just use a battery.

------------------------

Now, rant is over. You can hate me and call me noob now.

Dmitri3 · Oct 24, 2008, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

incredibly bad builds are able to get through PvE pretty easily. so people think that thier bad builds are effective. Good players will always be trying to maximize their build.

Only part of your message that made sense to me.

---

Gah, damn. Maybe it's just cause I woke up at 4am today... But you can still hate me anyways.

Earth · Oct 24, 2008, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Are you saying Deep Wound sucks? Wow.

Dmitri3 · Oct 24, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earth

Are you saying Deep Wound sucks? Wow.

In PvP, it is mostly devastating in a good setup.

In PvE, it it mostly useless, even in a good setup. Can't spam it, max 100 hp, 20% healing reduction is not that much good unless you're stuck in PUG with wammoes that like to bring mending and healing breeze... Oh, and reapplying it does nothing.

Tyla · Oct 24, 2008, 09:21 PM // 21:21

100 damage is a lot. It will make you kill faster, and is always worth it if you have the oppertunity. Not to mention most Dervish elites such; but if you don't want it, roll AoL.

Dmitri3 · Oct 24, 2008, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

100 damage is a lot. It will make you kill faster, and is always worth it if you have the oppertunity. Not to mention most Dervish elites such; but if you don't want it, roll AoL.

Actually, it's not even damage. It's health reduction. You can't even kill with deep wound. And it's only usable once.

Burst Cancel · Oct 24, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnormai

Not exactly....

If a group of 8 people went into hard mode on -any- dungeon, with an empty skill bar, that really wouldn't work, now would it?

and it would not really be efficient if your going into a [pug] and one, or two people didn't have any skills on their skill bar, or a below average build for the area, either. It would slow things down, and take more of your time & effort.

Hey, good example - except that's not how people play. They put up their shitty bars, grab a bunch of H/H or other people with shitty bars, and when they beat PvE they say, "wow, my build rocks because I beat PvE". That same person could H/H with an empty skillbar and "beat PvE". Nobody is talking about rocking hard mode dungeons with 8 empty bars; don't be obtuse.

Oh, and you don't get to talk about efficiency. You've gone out of your way to explicitly ignore the best builds and skills, simply due to some misguided aversion to "using what other people use". If you actually cared about efficiency this thread wouldn't even exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

snip

You got pretty much everything wrong. Perhaps you'd care to explain what makes DW so punishing in PvP but unimpressive in PvE when DW has the same effect in both.

Dmitri3 · Oct 24, 2008, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

You got pretty much everything wrong. Perhaps you'd care to explain what makes DW so punishing in PvP but unimpressive in PvE when DW has the same effect in both.

Ok.

1 - DW is effective is PvP because: spike or pressure.
Pressure: it drains monks' energy because of their less efficient healing if DW isn't removed.
Spike: Drops health by 100, plus 20% less healing really helps in some situations.

In PvE, spike is a bad way to go, because usually you won't be on vent calling "3, 2, 1...".
Pressure on energy, impossible. Mobs have additional energy regeneration, so it doesn't affect them.

2 - In PvP, you don't want anyone to die. DW pretty much is a mini "doom" tool for killing the target. It costs a lot, but it gives a lot more chances to complete the kill.
In PvE, mobs drop like flies because they don't usually stop you from dishing out damage. Killing one or two monsters isn't a really big accomplishment, while in PvP, it could be devastating.

3 - In PvP, there's no bosses or high hp monsters. Players with more that 620 health are very rare.

Anyway, Deep Wound is a good tool for PvP, but for PvE it's rubbish. Your enemies either drop like flies, making your DW ineffective because normal attack with +damage would do more damage anyway.
Or they are really strong, with over 1000 health and take a long time to go down, in which case, DW again is ineffective since it basically only takes away 100hp, once.

Tyla · Oct 24, 2008, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Actually, it's not even damage. It's health reduction. You can't even kill with deep wound. And it's only usable once.

If you think about it; yes, it is 100 damage. Wounding Strike is like a +100 damage attack (face it, .5-2 seconds after deep wound is applied the enemy will be dead; deep wound accelerates this) and easily compared, unless for some reason you kill really slowly, which you shouldn't as a Dervish.