Curse

Tiresias · Dec 08, 2008, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Hi! Hello! Good day!

I recently returned to Guild Wars after a long hiatus. I stopped playing around the Factions era -- I would argue that my dislike of the Factions campaign is what drove me away -- and decided to check back in to see what had changed. Not only was I pleasantly surprised by the Nightfall campaign but I also greatly enjoy the new Dervish class, which operates as a high-damage melee class similar to the Assassin without being as... gimmicky.

Something that I have noticed since my return is that melee classes have a lot of "spoilers" in PvP. It seems that Blind and Weakness are thrown around liberally and often stacked with hexes that make attacking dangerous or impossible. This is further compounded by the fact that everyone runs some stance that has a 75% chance to block with a 100% up-time.

Now, I can handle the stances easily enough because I run Wild Blow as a standard attack (it's great burst), but the conditions and hexes are a bit more troubling as it does not seem that the Dervish has much in the way of cleanup. I do not like being completely dependent on another player to remove both types of afflictions and deal with stances; I would like to be able to manage two of the three in most PvP situations. Ideally I would have a good solution for dealing with stances and conditions and leave the hex removal to a teammate.

I have one other problem: I seem to get my enchantments stripped a lot. I don't mean just one, I mean all of them, all at once. I remember enchantment removal as being somewhat difficult when I was last here, but now in many PvP situations it seems that the very first thing to happen as a fight is joined is my Enchantments just... vanish. It even happens in Random Arenas! Can someone clue me into what is going on, and how I can defend against it?

Yes, yes, "Search" and "Wiki" and "Google" and so forth... I've tried all that already and just feel more confused than I was before. I have resorted now to soliciting help from the community. Please bear in mind that I haven't played in a long time.

Thanks in advance!

-Lotus- · Dec 08, 2008, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiresias

I do not like being completely dependent on another player to remove both types of afflictions and deal with stances;

then play a monk. All classes depend on each other, this is a team game.

as for then enchantments... removal has become much more common since the introduction the the dervish, most characters have some enchantment removal. the solution is to not rely on enchantments. In PvP the only one you REALLY need is heart of fury, apart from that most things can come in the forms of attack skills or stances.

Aida · Dec 08, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

As far as dealing with cleanup you can go D/Mo and bring mending touch for removing blind and weakness in one shot along side something like holy veil for removing hexes as soon as they are put on you, unfortunately you cannot do this while going /W for wild blow but you can check in the wind prayers line for a pretty decent hex removal although it requires enchants to work. Now for your enchants beeing removed that quickly the opposing side has probably got someone running rend enchantments or gaze of contempt the first removes 6+ enchants the latter removes all enchants if your above 50% health. hope this helped some.

Bobby2 · Dec 08, 2008, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Now, I can handle the stances easily enough because I run Wild Blow as a standard attack (it's great burst), but the conditions and hexes are a bit more troubling as it does not seem that the Dervish has much in the way of cleanup. I do not like being completely dependent on another player to remove both types of afflictions and deal with stances; I would like to be able to manage two of the three in most PvP situations. Ideally I would have a good solution for dealing with stances and conditions and leave the hex removal to a teammate.

Take [pious restoration] for a spin, it doesn't take high spec and you're probably already packing [attacker's Insight] anyway. [wild blow] for Stances and leave Blind removal to Resto's/Monks, they're better at getting rid of condi's than Hexes so it's just as well.

turbo234 · Dec 08, 2008, 06:35 PM // 18:35

You must just really be unlucky. Most casters seem to have anti casting builds for healers now. Ocassionally I would run into a blinding surge ele or maybe one or two hexes that hurt me but being overrun with hexes and conditions sounds like bad luck.

If you really want to deal with them i would say use Avatar of Dwayna. One of my favorite skills, removes hexes and heals you. Then all you have to deal with is conditions really.

And 100/75 blocking huh? i would imagine you are trying to fight a monk when this happens because they tend to bring one or two defensive skills almost always disciplined stance and either shield bash or another stance. Wild blow should take care of that no problem.

As to the enchant stripping? Probably someone using rend enchants if you're getting them all removed. The skill has been seeing more play recently so it wouldn't be all that uncommon to see.

X Cytherea X · Dec 08, 2008, 06:49 PM // 18:49

[harrier's haste][wounding strike][lyssa's assault][victorious sweep][zealous sweep][holy veil][mending touch][resurrection signet]

[harrier's haste][reaper's sweep][banishing strike][victorious sweep][zealous sweep][remove hex][mending touch][resurrection signet]

run these in RA. big damage, hex/cond removal.

dont hit targets with stances. or if you see a stance, switch target.

Tyla · Dec 08, 2008, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Self-dependency only goes so far. Placing limitations on yourself kills your damage.

Also, Cytherea, I heavily recommend using an IAS with that. Too much "big domage attok" and too little "compile the damage".

Tiresias · Dec 08, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

There are so few ways to remove stances in the game that I think I might have to stay with /W for Wild Blow. Honestly, since my TA group is a melee spike and the other spiker is an Assassin. Thus the ability to set up a spike with a Wild Blow just after the target uses a stance is pretty much essential, especially when trying to kill a Mo/W. Simply ignoring stance-spamming targets is usually not an option.

I will give Pious Restoration another turn, as I do tend to like the Wind Prayers utility -- something afforded to me since I am more "conditions and utility" rather than outright damage. I have tried it in the past and found it unwieldy, though that's probably more my problem than that of the skill itself.

I get the point on leaving conditions to the Monk. Good bit of advice there.

I'll also have to give those RA builds a try. I like the first build, though I am likely to drop one of the Scythe attacks for a bit of utility. I never before noticed that Victorious Sweep is only +9 damage shy of Reaper's Sweep despite having half the cooldown...

By the way, how do you more experienced Dervishes feel about using a single +2 rune in PvP? I noticed that they reduced the HP cost to -35... thereby rendering my entire array of old -50 runes useless as they were NOT updated! /nerdrage

Darkside · Dec 08, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Self-dependency only goes so far. Placing limitations on yourself kills your damage.

Also, Cytherea, I heavily recommend using an IAS with that. Too much "big domage attok" and too little "compile the damage".

I agree it's nice to wanna be able to do it all yourself, unfortunately you will most likely weaken yourself in the process. You may be able to remove hexes and conditions but most likely your damage will suffer significantly and you will be left in the same position as before...unable to kill your target. You only have so much space on your bar and so many attribute points to spread around. Filling your bar with support skills and spreading your attributes thin is a sure way to fail.

Tiresias · Dec 08, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

I agree it's nice to wanna be able to do it all yourself, unfortunately you will most likely weaken yourself in the process. You may be able to remove hexes and conditions but most likely your damage will suffer significantly and you will be left in the same position as before...unable to kill your target. You only have so much space on your bar and so many attribute points to spread around. Filling your bar with support skills and spreading your attributes thin is a sure way to fail.

Actually this situation of "spreading myself thin" is exactly what I am trying to avoid. I'm not looking to be self-sustaining as much as I am looking to be able to provide some of the necessary measures for me to succeed in TA groups. After all, we have one Monk and it is not realistic for us to expect him to heal, protect, de-hex, and cleanse all while providing for his own safety. The other members of the group have to be able to deal with "showstopper" hate (Blind, Empathy, Weakness, Spoil Victor, etc) while still filling their roles.

Having said that, my main role is NOT as core damage. Sure, I deal damage also, but I am primarily tasked with spreading conditions and stance canceling for the spike. It is a role that Dervishes seem to fill well, since if the opposing team makes the mistake of bunching up I can hit a lot of them with Deep Wound, Bleeding, and Crippled.

OK, so I need a stance canceler. Easy enough: Wild Blow. I guess that locks me into focusing on removing hexes from myself since I cannot find a method for a Dervish to remove conditions as a D/W. Is that a pretty accurate statement?

Tyla · Dec 08, 2008, 11:12 PM // 23:12

You know, the Monk shouldn't be the only person handling the party.

Have you thought about rethinking your entire build and placing utility in it?

Bobby2 · Dec 09, 2008, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiresias

After all, we have one Monk and it is not realistic for us to expect him to heal, protect, de-hex, and cleanse all while providing for his own safety.

You are effectively protecting your Monk by giving opposing players no time to cast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiresias

The other members of the group have to be able to deal with "showstopper" hate (Blind, Empathy, Weakness, Spoil Victor, etc) while still filling their roles.

Then why are you bothering with bringing a Monk?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Having said that, my main role is NOT as core damage.

Untrue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiresias

OK, so I need a stance canceler. Easy enough: Wild Blow. I guess that locks me into focusing on removing hexes from myself since I cannot find a method for a Dervish to remove conditions as a D/W. Is that a pretty accurate statement?

Pretty much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiresias

I will give Pious Restoration another turn, as I do tend to like the Wind Prayers utility -- something afforded to me since I am more "conditions and utility" rather than outright damage. I have tried it in the past and found it unwieldy, though that's probably more my problem than that of the skill itself.

You were right though, it is pretty unwieldy, and it's generally not something a Derv wants to be spending his energy on. But it's the best self sustainment you have available.

CoonerTheRed · Dec 09, 2008, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Are monks running more than Disciplined + Shield Bash? These are possible to time... pressure monk til he hits Shield Bash, spike something else while counting to 9, half-spike monk to draw a Disciplined (against a bad monk, you'd be surprised how often simply a speed boost + IAS + continuing to autoattack through Shield Bash will draw a Disciplined... or a ranger can often do it during a Shield Bash), count to 4, spike monk dead. No Wild Blow needed.

Or, if hexes are your biggest problem (cough cough VoR cough cough) try Avatar of Dwayna, Pious Haste, Pious Assault, Wild Blow, Eremite's (or prot strike), Attacker's Insight, res sig, utility. This allows your monk to ignore your hexes, which are a bigger problem than conditions at this point in the TA meta.

Shadow Slave · Dec 09, 2008, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Guess you could always consider [skill] Avatar of dwayna [/skill] [skill] Avatar of melandru [/skill] ?

...Not that I play Derv...

snaek · Dec 09, 2008, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by coonerthered

These are possible to time... pressure monk til he hits Shield Bash, spike something else while counting to 9

shield bash lasts 5s...
and derv auto-attack is pretty decent to pressure him wit it until shield bash wears off

Celeborn10 · Dec 09, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Hmm, what about adding Bull's Strike, adding more versatility? Lineback, pressure, win.

X Cytherea X · Dec 09, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Actually this situation of "spreading myself thin" is exactly what I am trying to avoid. I'm not looking to be self-sustaining as much as I am looking to be able to provide some of the necessary measures for me to succeed in TA groups. After all, we have one Monk and it is not realistic for us to expect him to heal, protect, de-hex, and cleanse all while providing for his own safety. The other members of the group have to be able to deal with "showstopper" hate (Blind, Empathy, Weakness, Spoil Victor, etc) while still filling their roles.

Having said that, my main role is NOT as core damage. Sure, I deal damage also, but I am primarily tasked with spreading conditions and stance canceling for the spike. It is a role that Dervishes seem to fill well, since if the opposing team makes the mistake of bunching up I can hit a lot of them with Deep Wound, Bleeding, and Crippled.

OK, so I need a stance canceler. Easy enough: Wild Blow. I guess that locks me into focusing on removing hexes from myself since I cannot find a method for a Dervish to remove conditions as a D/W. Is that a pretty accurate statement?

your sin might wanna try [golden fox strike][wild strike][shattering assault] and take care of stance/enchantment removal. that will free your secondary and let you go /e for a conjure element.

so you have a sin, a derv and a monk. what is your 4th guy? he can be the "cleanup" and "additional support" guy. best choices are probably a nec, a rit, or a smite monk. so you and the sin can go all out offense.

CoonerTheRed · Dec 09, 2008, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

shield bash lasts 5s...
and derv auto-attack is pretty decent to pressure him wit it until shield bash wears off

I believe most monks are specing tactics at 8 or 9, no?

Shadow Slave · Dec 09, 2008, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Shield Bash is Strength.

Tiresias · Dec 09, 2008, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

your sin might wanna try [golden fox strike][wild strike][shattering assault] and take care of stance/enchantment removal. that will free your secondary and let you go /e for a conjure element.

so you have a sin, a derv and a monk. what is your 4th guy? he can be the "cleanup" and "additional support" guy. best choices are probably a nec, a rit, or a smite monk. so you and the sin can go all out offense.

You are correct in guessing that our 4th is a Necro who is a mostly setup for defense. We keep fooling around with his build, though he is mostly anti-melee these days on account of the incredibly annoying [Warrior's Endurance] Warriors running around everywhere, spamming attack skills with limitless energy while behind the protection of heavy armor and occasionally a shield. Given that Warriors are basically immune to an A + D spike (since it's primarily melee damage + conditions), we have to control them until their healer is dead.

We have tried Wild Strike in the past and didn't much care for it as it made our Assassin into the "utility" role, waiting on the stance to cancel, but we can give it another run. I have come quite a ways in my ability to handle the Dervish over the last week and feel more comfortable calling for the spike, so I might give a damage role a shot.

Thanks to everyone for the advice and discussion. Further insight is appreciated.