Curse

Improvavel · May 08, 2009, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

Had a friend test this with an AoG + AoHM + OotV buffset and he was stealing more than 24 per hit (19 from AoG, 5 from Vamp Scythe). He wasn't buffed w/ Nightmare, and I know that AoG converts to Cold and AoHM converts to Holy... neither of which should be considered Physical... I will have to ask him to reconduct the lifesteal test and see if I can get the exact numbers from him. I'm pretty sure that he was getting all 3 lifesteal triggers, though.

I've tested it vs undead and it seems to work the normal way - Grenths convert to cold damage first and then AoHM converts to holy, so you do holy damage. Only 2 activations of lifesteal - 1 from grenths, one from vampiric scythe. OoV didn't trigger either with AoG alone, with AoHM alone or with both.

_Nihilist_ · May 08, 2009, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Thank you, Improvavel. In that case, the friend testing it (who admittedly could not give me exact lifesteal amounts - just said it was effing nuts, and was more than AoG steal alone) was not paying close enough attention and was forgetting that he was sitting on his Vamp Scythe.

That being said, I'm now /sadpanda. AoG + Nightmare Weapon + OotV + VampScythe is just so much prettiness in the form of lifesteal. I should have known that it would not be allowed. /grumble

Looks like I'm not packing an Orders anytime soon with my Derv. He's a fan of AoHM, and I can't refute that the damage increase from AoHM > OotV lifesteal. I'll just make sure that he gets liberal doses of Nightmare Weapon and Splinter Weapon, and uses his Vamp Scythe as much as possible.

reaper with no name · May 11, 2009, 02:55 PM // 14:55

In elite areas, AoM or AoD is the way to go, or so I've heard. It takes a lot of pressure off your monks.

The other avatars...They just seem pointless to me. Why bother going for an uber damage AoL build when the average sin is going to outdamage you anyway? Similiar deal with AoB and AoG. They're just not good enough at what they do. If you want to go with one of those builds then you might as well just make a Warrior or Sin (you'll be better at whatever you're trying to do).

That's why I usually go with WS. Spammable DW plus scythe attacks at least gives me some kind of niche that warriors can't match (sins can, but I also have [Save Yourselves!] on my bar, which scythe sins can't get). I find it better to be optimal in one area than suboptimal in many.

Hmmm...Seems to be some debate over AoM vs WS.

Doesn't seem that complicated to me. [Avatar of Melandru]+[Wearying Strike]+[Eternal Aura] gives you +100 HP and condition immunity, while [Wounding Strike] gives you two free slots to mess around with.

Either one could be better depending on the circumstances (like for example, whether or not you are going to be facing lots of conditions).

Improvavel · May 11, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Doesn't seem that complicated to me. [Avatar of Melandru]+[Wearying Strike]+[Eternal Aura] gives you +100 HP and condition immunity, while [Wounding Strike] gives you two free slots to mess around with.

Either one could be better depending on the circumstances (like for example, whether or not you are going to be facing lots of conditions).

But what can you get with those 2 slots?

And [wearying strike]+[victorious sweep] have [wounding strike]+attack+attack covered.

You are only really saving a slot. And [eternal aura] does stuff other just recharge your avatar - it recharge other dervish skills, [aura of holy might], [heart of fury] and [attackers insight], and deals some damage too.

reaper with no name · May 11, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

No, you're saving two. And those other skills you mentioned don't take that long to recharge. With a 20% enchanting mod (can't see why any self-respecting derv would forego this; defense or fortitude only makes you what, 6% tougher? Enchantments are a dervish's lifeblood), most of those are easily maintainable.

And a 90 dmg AoE every 30 sec isn't that good, especially since you won't be using it when you want dmg, but rather when you want to recharge your avatar.

Compare these builds:

[Avatar of Melandru][Wearying Strike][Eternal Aura][Save Yourselves!][Eremite's Attack][Attacker's Insight][Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury]

[Wounding Strike][Victorious Sweep][Mystic Sweep][Save Yourselves!][Eremite's Attack][Attacker's Insight][Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury]

Assuming that Wearying Strike is half the attack skill that stuff like mystic sweep or victorious sweep is (seems about right, nearly twice the recharge after all and is useless if for some reason your avatar gets interrupted), then that's 1.5 more attack skills you get. It's also much easier on the energy, so you can spam attack skills more often.

I'm not saying that AoM is bad or even remotely close to it (on the contrary, it's very good). I'm saying that since condition immunity is not that helpful unless there are a lot of conditions, that AoM is less useful than WS in those cases, just as WS isn't as good as AoM when there are a lot of conditions around.

Improvavel · May 11, 2009, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

No, you're saving two.And those other skills you mentioned don't take that long to recharge. With a 20% enchanting mod (can't see why any self-respecting derv would forego this; defense or fortitude only makes you what, 6% tougher? Enchantments are a dervish's lifeblood), most of those are easily maintainable.

So a melandru now has 130 more health that a regular derv?

Quote:

And a 90 dmg AoE every 30 sec isn't that good, especially since you won't be using it when you want dmg, but rather when you want to recharge your avatar.

I can use it twice during a melandru duration. So I can gamble it for damage. 100 damage armor ignoring nearby is ok.

Quote:

Compare these builds:

[Avatar of Melandru][Wearying Strike][Eternal Aura][Save Yourselves!][Eremite's Attack][Attacker's Insight][Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury]

[Wounding Strike][Victorious Sweep][Mystic Sweep][Save Yourselves!][Eremite's Attack][Attacker's Insight][Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury]

Assuming that Wearying Strike is half the attack skill that stuff like mystic sweep or victorious sweep is (seems about right, nearly twice the recharge after all and is useless if for some reason your avatar gets interrupted), then that's 1.5 more attack skills you get. It's also much easier on the energy, so you can spam attack skills more often.

You just assume its energy demanding. It is but I can keep Avatar up all the time and use attack skills and just not auto-attack. Also I got more use of attacker insight. If I can do it anyone can.

Quote:

I'm not saying that AoM is bad or even remotely close to it (on the contrary, it's very good). I'm saying that since condition immunity is not that helpful unless there are a lot of conditions, that AoM is less useful than WS in those cases, just as WS isn't as good as AoM when there are a lot of conditions around.

There are a few places with no conditions. There a few places with no hexes. But I cant recall any interesting place without both.

WS needs to be better than either AoM or AoD.

reaper with no name · May 12, 2009, 07:24 PM // 19:24

No, but there are many places where there aren't enough conditions to justify AoM. In fact, most places are like that.

25 vs 5 energy? Yes, AoM is more energy demanding. However well you can spam scythe attacks with AoM, you can do it better with just WS. Heck, I can remove Attacker's Insight, replace it with some other skill that benefits me in some way (Mystic Regeneration, for example), and still spam scythe attacks just as much as you can, if not more.

Oh, and let's not forget that avatars can be interrupted. If we're going to assume blindness and weakness are everywhere, then it's a guarantee that there will be interrupts up the wahoozy.

Improvavel · May 13, 2009, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

No, but there are many places where there aren't enough conditions to justify AoM. In fact, most places are like that.

25 vs 5 energy? Yes, AoM is more energy demanding. However well you can spam scythe attacks with AoM, you can do it better with just WS. Heck, I can remove Attacker's Insight, replace it with some other skill that benefits me in some way (Mystic Regeneration, for example), and still spam scythe attacks just as much as you can, if not more.

Oh, and let's not forget that avatars can be interrupted. If we're going to assume blindness and weakness are everywhere, then it's a guarantee that there will be interrupts up the wahoozy.

Is avatar of melandru an attack skill? Its effects and roles are very different. And are you reservations about avatar melandru the high energy cost? If it was 5 energy would you use it instead of WS?

Self healing in pve where you have monks for the fail.

About the interrupts - I probably have interrupted my avatar more times than the enemy by casting it while its ending. Thing is, Avatar of Melandru last 66 seconds at 13 mysticism and you can cast it just before engaging. Not many battle last 60 seconds.

For those that last more than that and in case there are stuff that can interrupt the avatar, you can take measures. Against rangers you can find cover, you can wait for creatures like jotuns to use their trample skills and such.

Not something that will happen that often.

reaper with no name · May 14, 2009, 08:26 PM // 20:26

I can also take measures against conditions. [Spotless Soul], for example.