Curse

GourangaPizza · May 05, 2009, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Truth is [[Avatar of Melandru] + [[wearying strike] beats [[wounding strike]+ whatever in a dervish.

I stop reading when you wrote this. Here is something about Melandru's, the perks (+100 health, immunity to conditions) it bring to the typical PvE scenario is unnecessary most of the time. And we haven't even talk about its exorbitant
energy cost for its short duration. Then there's the urge to bring a skill to convert your avatar's earth damage since very foes are vulnerable against. In the end your AoM bar (excluding attack skills) will either be packed with utility enchantments but lack of offensive ones or vice versa.

The only reason why I will use Melandru is when

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

[Avatar of Melandru] for areas with lots of conditions, or lots of spikers (Eles/Rits)

Lastly WS dervish beats a Wearing Strike + AoM dervish anyday is the synergy it has with a discord team. Asuran Scan + Wounding Strike anyone?

Improvavel · May 05, 2009, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by GourangaPizza

I stop reading when you wrote this. Here is something about Melandru's, the perks (+100 health, immunity to conditions) it bring to the typical PvE scenario is unnecessary most of the time. And we haven't even talk about its exorbitant
energy cost for its short duration.

Fortunately I can keep Mel the entire time, spam my 3 10e enchantments and spam my attack skills and I don't even need to use a zealous scythe. Ah, with base energy too.

Learn to swap weapons. Learn to use attackers insight.

Quote:

Then there's the urge to bring a skill to convert your avatar's earth damage since very foes are vulnerable against.

Fortunately I'm using [[aura of holy might]. You might not be aware, BUT IT CONVERTS ALL THE DAMAGE YOU DO WITH A SCYTHE TO HOLY DAMAGE.

If you don't believe me go use wild blow on undead mobs. First city thing in NF is a good practice place.

Quote:

In the end your AoM bar (excluding attack skills) will either be packed with utility enchantments but lack of offensive ones or vice versa.

I'm a frontliner - I do damage, I body block. I can do damage even with conditions (since I'm immune), I allow monks to save energy due no need to remove my conditions, I can do damage while I'm hexed with my enchantments. I can even pack an interrupt or save yourselves.

Quote:

Lastly WS dervish beats a Wearing Strike + AoM dervish anyday is the synergy it has with a discord team. Asuran Scan + Wounding Strike anyone?

I still enjoy enfeebling blood on my necros and I can use asuran scan too if needs be.

And again, a WS dervish has nothing to make him preferable to WS assassin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

I agree with everything but this bit. [air of superiority] > [eternal aura] in almost all situations.

Yes, air of superiority is really good. Will have to see if it fits in a mel bar. I suspect it isn't reliable enough to replace eternal aura completely though.

Axel Zinfandel · May 05, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

I really, really don't see the hype about [Air of Superiority] over [Assassin's promise] that people seem so avid over. [Eternal Aura] too.

With AoS you have only a 10% chance to recharge all your skills. Sure, stuff dies a lot in PvE, but even if you're up against say 10 enemies, statistically only one of them will trigger the recharge.

Not to mention the other benefits are pretty 'meh'.

So, yeah, I shake my head at people who rely completely on AoS's skill recharge. It's a good skill to run for utility for an optional spot in a build. It's a terrible skill base an entire build around.

Bobby2 · May 06, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I really, really don't see the hype about [Air of Superiority] over [Assassin's promise] that people seem so avid over. [Eternal Aura] too.

AoS over Aura, AP is a whole other ballgame... at least that's my take on it

_Nihilist_ · May 06, 2009, 01:27 AM // 01:27

If you're wanting your Avatar (which is a Derv skill) to recharge without fail, wouldn't it be better to use [Eternal Aura] over [Air of Superiority]? 100% > 10% right?

Improvavel · May 06, 2009, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

If you're wanting your Avatar (which is a Derv skill) to recharge without fail, wouldn't it be better to use [Eternal Aura] over [Air of Superiority]? 100% > 10% right?

I can't see [[air of superiority] replacing [[eternal aura], especially in a mel derv which doesn't get any benefit of the losing conditions clause of [[air of superiority]. And mel bars are already packed.

And lets not forget of [[eternal aura] offensive capability - I love to go in and bam the mobs with it. Occasionally it backfires on you as it gets interrupted, but still no biggie (unless they d-shot or divert it) since you will be able to get another use of it before mels run out and you can use [[heart of fury]/[[aura of holy might] to draw interrupts if needs be.

GourangaPizza · May 06, 2009, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

<snip>

You mention the skills you used which are:
[Attacker's Insight][Aura of Holy Might][Eternal Aura][Avatar of Melandru], [Save Yourselves!] or Interrupt skills. Now this pretty much leaves your other 3 skills are attack skills right?

Sorry mate, you are still outdamaged by a Wounding Strike dervish without an IAS, and you are still going to be energy deprived, with weapon swap or not, unless you're going to come up with another excuse that you micro your monk heroes enchantments on yourself or maybe you only tested this build in Asuran maps but not other places

. PvE has mesmers you know.

I would be very happy that you post your bar and a video for us to see how awesome your damage is and maybe if it is proven that it beats Wounding Strike bar, I could happily shut up for you.

Axel Zinfandel · May 06, 2009, 05:52 AM // 05:52

WS is kind of an overrated skill in PvE, I believe. Godly for PvP, no doubt, but in general PvE the ability to inflict deep wound without a <50% clause doesn't really seal the deal for me. Reaper's Sweep is nicer to me

faraaz · May 06, 2009, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

WS is kind of an overrated skill in PvE, I believe. Godly for PvP, no doubt, but in general PvE the ability to inflict deep wound without a <50% clause doesn't really seal the deal for me. Reaper's Sweep is nicer to me

You sir, are wrong. Wounding Strike rapes face and anyone who holds otherwise needs to play moar.

Megas XLR · May 06, 2009, 01:10 PM // 13:10

I know this will defy all logic and have no relevance to effectiveness of builds, but am I the only one who doesn't like how the majority of avatars look? Grenth is probably the only one that I actually appreciate.

Anyway, that's why I use Wounding Strike instead. Or Zealous Vow

Redvex · May 06, 2009, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

[Avatar of Grenth (PvE)@14]+[Nightmare [email protected]]+[Order of the [email protected]] (from an Orders Necro, to prevent the "two Elites wtf?!" comments) is nasty...

Order activate on physical damage and grenth deal cold damage so it useless

Snow Bunny · May 06, 2009, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

You sir, are wrong. Wounding Strike rapes face and anyone who holds otherwise needs to play moar.

zzzz

It's good, but think PvE.
It tacks on no additional damage. Do you really need DW every 3 bloody seconds? How much are you going to use it? You could just use Wearying Strike and apply it every 6, which is how much you need anyway.

If you're constantly destroying enemies, AoS > EA. The 10% clause will kick in more than you'd think, and the extra energy you get from AoS is nice as well.

This infatuation with Wounding Strike is bizarre. It's AoE Deep Wound and Bleeding, and it was good in PVP because combined with signet mesmers, you could lock down RC and do massive pressure. The skill went into the shitter once Foul Feast was buffed and you could play pingpong with conditions.

Just because it was good in PvP doesn't mean the same applies here. If you were to follow that logic, Eviscerate would be better than DragonSlash, but it's not.

If there's not a lot of conditions, AoM is still nice when coupled with AoS. Hell, Avatar of Dwayna will be good too, more useful than Wounding Strike.

Wounding Strike is simply DW every 3 seconds, which is unnecessary. Every 6-10 seconds is preferable, every 3 is not worth sacrificing your elite.

There are so many outlets for DW, it's simply not worth sacrificing your elite for it in PvE, especially when PvE elites and skills are significantly more broken than their PvP counterparts.

Improvavel · May 06, 2009, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by GourangaPizza

You mention the skills you used which are:
[Attacker's Insight][Aura of Holy Might][Eternal Aura][Avatar of Melandru], [Save Yourself!] or Interrupt skills. Now this pretty much leaves your other 3 skills are attack skills right?

General build I use:
[Attacker's Insight][Aura of Holy Might][Eternal Aura][Avatar of Melandru][heart of fury][wearying strike][Victorious Sweep][mystic sweep]

I can drop one of the attacks for something else if need be.

Quote:

Sorry mate, you are still outdamaged by a Wounding Strike dervish without an IAS, and you are still going to be energy deprived, with weapon swap or not,

Wrong! I play all the time and I never get energy deprived unless they energy surge me to death while on my staff set, which any dervish will.

If you still don't believe that is possible then pm me and I will show you in game if that is what is needed, although many other good mel players will tell you the same.

Quote:

unless you're going to come up with another excuse that you micro your monk heroes enchantments on yourself or maybe you only tested this build in Asuran maps but not other places

. PvE has mesmers you know.

Aegis, PS, SB, SA are part of my heroes builds. I generally play with another person at least or with 2 accounts. Mysticism gives 4 energy back when an enchantment ends on you - attackers insight fuel 3 attacks (if you are using the energy from the staff to cast it) for example for 1 energy.

Quote:

I would be very happy that you post your bar and a video for us to see how awesome your damage is and maybe if it is proven that it beats Wounding Strike bar, I could happily shut up for you.

Damage is only part of the dervish role. Wounding strike deals less damage that wearying strike if that makes you happy though.

A melandru dervish is more resilient and has comparable damage to a wounding strike dervish.

You can also use the above build and try it for yourself. I've used both builds and wy assassins. WY assassins deals the most damage. WY dervishes are the most vulnerable of the 3.

Actually I prefer [[reapers sweep] assassins over WY ones.

_Nihilist_ · May 07, 2009, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redvex

Order activate on physical damage and grenth deal cold damage so it useless

Had a friend test this with an AoG + AoHM + OotV buffset and he was stealing more than 24 per hit (19 from AoG, 5 from Vamp Scythe). He wasn't buffed w/ Nightmare, and I know that AoG converts to Cold and AoHM converts to Holy... neither of which should be considered Physical... I will have to ask him to reconduct the lifesteal test and see if I can get the exact numbers from him. I'm pretty sure that he was getting all 3 lifesteal triggers, though.

[EDIT]:

Snow Bunny and Improvavel, I've tried making the argument for Reaper's > Wounding before, most of the Forum-goers want a 3sec DW, regardless of if it's necessary or not. Spammable Bleed+DW gets more respect than DW+damage, all because of the 3second availability... oh well, at least 2 people in this Thread understand my reasoning...

Axel Zinfandel · May 07, 2009, 02:44 AM // 02:44

I understand it to D: I said it initially lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megas XLR

I know this will defy all logic and have no relevance to effectiveness of builds, but am I the only one who doesn't like how the majority of avatars look? Grenth is probably the only one that I actually appreciate.

Balthazar looks good, but too bad the skill is terrible. Grenth is actually useful in PvE against endgame PvE, where armor ignoring damage > all

Bobby2 · May 07, 2009, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

Snow Bunny and Improvavel, I've tried making the argument for Reaper's > Wounding before, most of the Forum-goers want a 3sec DW, regardless of if it's necessary or not. Spammable Bleed+DW gets more respect than DW+damage, all because of the 3second availability... oh well, at least 2 people in this Thread understand my reasoning...

This I remember! But the argument ending up in favour of WS was, as I recall, mostly due to Reaper's shifty results and annoying recharge.

[reaper's [email protected]] VS [wearying [email protected]] would be fairer. Big fan of wearying, here (goes for Assassins too, they have [assassin's remedy] to work with)

GourangaPizza · May 07, 2009, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

General build I use:
<snip>
I can drop one of the attacks for something else if need be.

The more I look I at it the more you put me in disbelief. Sure you can run it, lest you spend 10 seconds autoattacking before you can reach maximum effectiveness even with the 4 energy gain from Attacker's Insight. I think you're struggling to keep your energy up rather than focusing on what's going on around your character with that bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Wrong! I play all the time and I never get energy deprived unless they energy surge me to death while on my staff set, which any dervish will.

You telling me that you get e-Surge on your staff set and you still have energy to use skills? I was hoping you're saying the opposite, since people switch to high energy set when they are energy deprived.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Damage is only part of the dervish role. Wounding strike deals less damage that wearying strike if that makes you happy though.

A melandru dervish is more resilient and has comparable damage to a wounding strike dervish.

More resilient? That's a probable aspect if you are willing to look out from a single bar and look at the party's bar. Most of the time a single cast of Protective Spirit from a monk covers the dervish's arse on the frontline adequately. If your party sucks, no matter what skills you bring, you are still going down fast like a toilet flush.

More damage? I'm sorry that's false. Because a typical Wounding Strike bar
[build=OgCjkyqG7OAgBMzFATuF3jeAAA] requires so minimal skills in their bar to accomplish alot, they have the freedom add whatever PvE/ normal skills to fill up the remaining empty slots to either augment their offensiveness (e.g. Asuran Scan, Air of Superiority) or their defensibility (e.g. Save Yourself). In fact I think they are more versatile than a Melandru dervish.

I am not saying Wounding Strike is the "be all, end all" dervish bar but when people tries to claim a Melandru's bar is far more offensive than a Wounding Strike bar, the logic is somewhat flawed.

Snow Bunny · May 07, 2009, 04:18 AM // 04:18

[aura of holy might][air of superiority][avatar of melandru][attacker's insight][wearying strike][victorious sweep][heart of fury][optional]

I have deep wound, more damage, good emanagement, and immunity to blind/cripple/conditions.

You have deep wound, some damage (not as much), and are vulnerable to conditions.

sup?

GourangaPizza · May 07, 2009, 04:33 AM // 04:33

[Asuran Scan][Wounding Strike][Mystic Sweep][Chilling Victory][Attacker's Insight][Heart of Fury][Aura of Holy Might][Air of Superiority]
I have deep wound and consistent high damage to KO stuff fast with Discord from my necros.
And I guess your next move would be slotting in Asuran Scan. I give up. But I am not convinced Improvavel's bar can keep up with Wounding Strike.

Improvavel · May 08, 2009, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by GourangaPizza

The more I look I at it the more you put me in disbelief. Sure you can run it, lest you spend 10 seconds autoattacking before you can reach maximum effectiveness even with the 4 energy gain from Attacker's Insight. I think you're struggling to keep your energy up rather than focusing on what's going on around your character with that bar.

Facts:
Dervish base energy - 25.
Staff - min 10 energy. I use a 15 one.
Avatar of Mel duration @13 mysticism - 66 seconds
Natural energy regen - 4 energy every 3 seconds or 88 energy during a complete Mel avatar cycle.

Cast Mel when zone. You have around 53 seconds to cast eternal aura to never stop avatar form.

Pre-cast attackers insight with staff energy. Go into the mob. Cast eternal aura and aura of holy might. Use your 2 attacks, get energy back. Cast heart of fury and more attackers insight.

From now on you are set. No need for zealous. Swap for staff to cast mel avatar and repeat the loop.

Zealous scythe makes this smoother, especially if u need to cast mel mid fight.

Yes WY builds are easier, but that doesn't mean better.

Lets look at energy expenditures over 66 seconds.

WY can be used 22 times @5e = 110 energy

Avatar 25e+ eternal aura 10e + Wearying strike @5e x11 uses = 90 energy

Extreme cases of course, but players are saying they need deep wound every 3 seconds and 6 seconds recharge make wearying strike bad, but after all spamming WY cost mores energy.

Sure it can deal more damage depending on the circumstance, but for max effect WY needs to hit 66 enemies in 66 seconds (3 enemies per use) or 1 enemy each second for the astonishing sum of 3600 enemies per hour.

Wearying strike to peak max efficiency needs to hit 33 enemies in the same 66 seconds or 1800 enemies per hour.

Absurd numbers both.

If they only hit 1 enemy per use, WY needs 20 enemies every minute or 1200 enemies per hour.

Wearying strike, in the same situation, needs to hit 10 enemies every minute or 600 enemies per hour.

Still absurd.

Putting in other way, wearying strike can hit between 10 to 30 enemies per minute translating into 600 to 1800 enemies per hour!

Wounding strike can hit between 20 to 60 enemies per minute translating into 1200 to 3600 enemies per hour!

OK! I'm sold! I really need deep wound every 3 seconds, because I'm facing at least 20 enemies per minute or 1200 enemies per hour!

Quote:

You telling me that you get e-Surge on your staff set and you still have energy to use skills? I was hoping you're saying the opposite, since people switch to high energy set when they are energy deprived.

I'm saying unless they catch me with energy surge while I'm using my staff, I will have the energy on the staff available.

What this means is if you are facing mesmers with energy surge pre-cast eternal aura and go in with ur scythe. After they surge you, swap to staff and cast other stuff.

Its valid for any dervish using attackers insight and/or enchantments.

Quote:

More resilient? That's a probable aspect if you are willing to look out from a single bar and look at the party's bar. Most of the time a single cast of Protective Spirit from a monk covers the dervish's arse on the frontline adequately. If your party sucks, no matter what skills you bring, you are still going down fast like a toilet flush.

Of course 70 armor dudes go down faster than 80 armor dudes and take a bit more time to go down than 60 armor dudes.

The most important is that warriors have 100 al vs physical, 80 vs elem and might still run a shield for 16 extra armor (not counting any +10 inscriptions on the shield) depending of weapon of choice and even assassins will have 90+ armor due to critical agility.

+100 health is a reasonable boost and its there even vs armor ignoring damage.

Conditions immunity means no blind, no weakness, no deep wound, no cripple. Even degen conditions can be annoying.

Quote:

More damage? I'm sorry that's false. Because a typical Wounding Strike bar
[build=OgCjkyqG7OAgBMzFATuF3jeAAA] requires so minimal skills in their bar to accomplish alot, they have the freedom add whatever PvE/ normal skills to fill up the remaining empty slots to either augment their offensiveness (e.g. Asuran Scan, Air of Superiority) or their defensibility (e.g. Save Yourself). In fact I think they are more versatile than a Melandru dervish.

Wearying strike deals more damage than Wounding strike (unless you let the bleeding do significant damage, which is slow...)

Quote:

I am not saying Wounding Strike is the "be all, end all" dervish bar but when people tries to claim a Melandru's bar is far more offensive than a Wounding Strike bar, the logic is somewhat flawed.

1st) Players overestimate the need for deep wound every 3 seconds. A simple math just proves you need at least 1200 enemies per hour to justify deep wound every 3 seconds and 3600 if you hit 3 targets at a time.

2nd) Players overestimate the cost of Mel Avatar based on its initial energy investment.

3rd) Players can't swap weapons! Zealous Scythe, Vampiric Scythe and Staff (+bow) allied with mysticism and attackers insight, will cover all the energy/damage needs of a Mel dervish.

4rd) Actually spamming just WY on recharge cost more that using Avatar of Melandru+Eternal Aura+Wearying strike on recharge.