Curse

Snow Bunny · May 11, 2009, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Ok, these skills in PvE are not as good as you all like to think. In every derv build, you all keep recommending WS and CV. Yes, it's true that in a GvG meta A YEAR AGO those skills were the key to a gimmicky pressure build. Wounding Strike allowed AoE deepwound on a lot of soft targets that couldn't be cleaned up because RC was locked down by Humsig, and CV against 60 AL human targets was very damaging after the initial WS. But this is PvE, not the June '08 GvG meta.

First, WS. You're giving up your elite for spammable DW. How often do you need DW? Every 3 seconds? Goodness no. Maybe every 6, or even 8. Think about HM - you need the damage every 3 seconds, not the DW. For an A/D with WS it's a bit different because the assassin will crit much more often, but think Dervish here. Against high-level enemies with high armor, your WS is inferior compared to elites that gives you more damage and utility. The Deep Wound can come from other sources - it's very silly that you all keep recommending this elite.

Next, CV. It deals cold damage if you have more health. How often in HM are you going to have more health? Not unless they're already blowing up. It's 10 energy for mediocre damage with a fairly conditional bit of damage that deals cold damage. There's a reason everyone opts for AL-ignoring damage in HM, and there's a reason elementalists are not very powerful damage dealers in HM, and there's a bloody reason no one uses [deathly swarm] in HM - because of HM armor.

You all keep suggesting mediocre-pve elite #1, and you all keep suggesting a very mediocre attack skill - 10e for a pretty shitty aoe effect. Re-evaluate damage and armor in PvE and realize why the skills dominated that meta in GvG, but don't in PvE.

Xsiriss · May 11, 2009, 06:18 PM // 18:18

I agree,gogo reaper's sweep which removes enchs too, hell in pve most of the time you don't need deepwound unless in HM, where you can use deepwound through some other way. I use augury of death on a sab on my derv, which does the job fine.

Improvavel · May 11, 2009, 06:32 PM // 18:32

WS can be used up to 20 times per minute, for a cost of 100 energy. It can hit a max of 60 enemies and min of 20 per minute. Or a min of 1200 enemies to a max of 3600 per hour.

Something like a wearying strike can be used up to 10 times in one minute. Min of 10 enemies max of 30 per minute. Or a min of 600 enemies to a max of 1800 per hour.

Another curious thing is that the combo of Melandru (the avatar that costs more)+wearying strike used 10 per minute+eternal aura 1 per minute costs 25+50+10=85 energy, which is less than the cost of spamming WS.

Ok, you might not need spamming WS every time is ready, but then again isn't the reason to bring it in the first place that u need to spam it?

Most of the time the max number of enemies you will be fighting is 8 or less. Curiously, the bigger the number of the enemies present the easier is to hit several enemies at the same time, further reducing the number of times you need to use the dw skill, making the recharge advantage of WS even further.

Also curiously, is that when there are few enemies its easier for them to stay spread making it harder to hit several at a time. But then again, going from one enemy to the other takes time - and its not like you are going to dw one enemy, then move to the next and deep wound him, while your party finishes the first. Most likely what it happens is that you stay there till the enemy is dead and only then move to your next target.

I think this idea of you needing dw every 3 seconds stems from the fact people don't understand deep wound very well.

Deep wound reduces both max health and current health by 20% of the max health (to a maximum of 100). That means any level 21+ mob will lose 100 health, regarless of it being full health or under 20% health (or any other percentage).

A deep wound will always deal 100 damage (unless there is a deep wound already present).

Occasionally, in special circumstances, WS will be superior, but most of the time it will be inferior to an avatar, and if you are afraid of the 25 energy melandru, dwayna and grenths have quite decent abilities - grenth will life steal for 18 per hit.

About chilling victory - human beings like fireworks and yellow numbers popping up are close to fireworks.

reaper with no name · May 11, 2009, 06:39 PM // 18:39

WS isn't as good as people like to claim it is, but it's still a very good skill.

Sure, the only time you'll need to apply a DW 3 sec after the last one is when engaging a new target.

However, the advantage of WS is that you can consistently apply the deep wound. Compare it to [Reaper's Sweep], in which you will only get a DW sometimes. Or [Pious Assault], in which you have to strip away an enchantment (that's 10 energy minimum for the DW, possibly 15, not to mention that that's one less enchantment fueling you to do whatever it is you're doing). Or [Wearying Strike], which is more trouble than it's worth unless you have AoM (in which case you also need Eternal Aura, which is 3 slots gone).

Also, you can't forget that it also inflicts bleeding. Technically, Wounding Strike is more damaging in the long run than Reaper's Sweep, because in the time it takes Reaper's Sweep to recharge, WS's bleeding will cause 48 damage and continue on for even longer, without the need for re-application.

As for Chilling Victory...Well, let's compare it to two popular scythe attacks: [Mystic Sweep] and [Eremite's Attack]. All three of these rely on certain conditions to do their thing. The latter two have half the cost of CV, but do less than half the damage, and the amount of targets their AoE hits is limited to 3 (CV's AoE has no such cap).

I also don't understand your apparent assertion that once enemies have less health than you, they are no longer a threat. They can still beat you down just as hard. Just because you have more health than the enemy doesn't mean they're about to die. Unless, of course, you hit them with an attack that will put them down quickly via extra damage due to their lack of health. Oh, wait, that's exactly what CV does.

In HM, you want to kill stuff as quickly as possible (or in NM, for that matter), in order to prevent them from putting a hurting on anyone and free you up to attack something else, right? CV helps you do that in a way that other scythe attacks don't. Is it an essential skill? No, I'll give that to you. But it's not like it sucks. It's at least as good as Mystic Sweep or Eremite's Attack (probably better, actually, since CV is intended more for finishing off things so you can move onto the next enemy, and there aren't really any other skills for that, but Victorious Sweep beats Mystic Sweep and Eremite's Attack at their own game).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Another curious thing is that the combo of Melandru (the avatar that costs more)+wearying strike used 10 per minute+eternal aura 1 per minute costs 25+50+10=85 energy, which is less than the cost of spamming WS.

Occasionally, in special circumstances, WS will be superior, but most of the time it will be inferior to an avatar, and if you are afraid of the 25 energy melandru, dwayna and grenths have quite decent abilities - grenth will life steal for 18 per hit.

How does spamming a 5 en attack while maintaining a 25 en avatar via a 10 en skill cost less than a single 5 en attack? I agree with your assertion that DW spam every 3 sec is unnecessary, but that calculation seems to have come from where the sun don't shine.

Actually, I'd say that WS is better just as often as the avatars are. AoB is horrible (it's effects can be replicated without elite skills) and AoL and AoG are just pointless (why focus your entire build on damage or tanking when any warrior or assassin is going to beat you at it anyway? If you actually want your dervish to be anything besides a waste you have to focus on doing something that the warrior or assassin can't do as well).

AoM and AoD shine in areas with lots of conditions or hexes, but outside of stacks of them they really don't help all that much. As small a benefit as spammable bleeding and DW might seem, in the absence of lots of hexes or conditions it's the best a dervish can hope for, simply due to the fact that avatars require two skill slots to be effective and their benefits are either not enough or only useful in certain areas.

Bobby2 · May 11, 2009, 06:58 PM // 18:58

[chilling victory] So I heard people were okay with 10s cooldown on attack skills these days?

wtb [death blossom]

Improvavel · May 11, 2009, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

WS isn't as good as people like to claim it is, but it's still a very good skill.

Sure, the only time you'll need to apply a DW 3 sec after the last one is when engaging a new target.

However, the advantage of WS is that you can consistently apply the deep wound. Compare it to [Reaper's Sweep], in which you will only get a DW sometimes. Or [Pious Assault], in which you have to strip away an enchantment (that's 10 energy minimum for the DW, possibly 15, not to mention that that's one less enchantment fueling you to do whatever it is you're doing). Or [Wearying Strike], which is more trouble than it's worth unless you have AoM (in which case you also need Eternal Aura, which is 3 slots gone).

Also, you can't forget that it also inflicts bleeding. Technically, Wounding Strike is more damaging in the long run than Reaper's Sweep, because in the time it takes Reaper's Sweep to recharge, WS's bleeding will cause 48 damage and continue on for even longer, without the need for re-application.

Of course instead of opening with the Reapers sweep, you can use your other damage skills and only when your enemy in under 50% health use reapers sweep.

Deep wound is as strong in the opening of a fight as it is in the mid.

Quote:

As for Chilling Victory...Well, let's compare it to two popular scythe attacks: [Mystic Sweep] and [Eremite's Attack]. All three of these rely on certain conditions to do their thing. The latter two have half the cost of CV, but do less than half the damage, and the amount of targets their AoE hits is limited to 3 (CV's AoE has no such cap).

Problems of chilling victory - cold damage. That means that against 100 armor foes it deals 29 damage. 40 vs armor 80. Mob casters in HM gain +3 armor per level after 20. So a level 26 caster has 78 armor - quite close to that 80 armor. Other mobs professions only get worse. Then you had huge cost and huge recharge.

Of course you also have to have more health to make it trigger. Not going to happen always.

A very popular dervish skill you left out is [victorious sweep].

Quote:

I also don't understand your apparent assertion that once enemies have less health than you, they are no longer a threat. They can still beat you down just as hard. Just because you have more health than the enemy doesn't mean they're about to die. Unless, of course, you hit them with an attack that will put them down quickly via extra damage due to their lack of health. Oh, wait, that's exactly what CV does.

Curious because you made a similar assumption regarding deep wound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

How does spamming a 5 en attack while maintaining a 25 en avatar via a 10 en skill cost less than a single 5 en attack? I agree with your assertion that DW spam every 3 sec is unnecessary, but that calculation seems to have come from where the sun don't shine.

What is cheaper a skill that costs 35 energy every 60 seconds or a skill that cost 5 energy every 3 seconds?

reaper with no name · May 11, 2009, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Actually, I did point out Victorious Sweep. It beats Mystic Sweep and Eremite's Attack easily. Probably better than Chilling Victory too as a skill overall. However, it isn't as good for killing stuff quickly; it's good for dealing consistent damage and keeping you alive longer.

DW is actually more effective at the start of a fight than at the end because of how it reduces the effect of healing by 20%. It's also better to apply it at the start than at the end because there's less risk of that 100 dmg being overkill.

If you're a melee character and you're doing your job against the mobs, you are going to have more health than them. You want to kill them and keep them from getting to the casters. That means staying alive and hurting them more than they hurt you, which implies reaching a point where you have more HP than they do.

How did I make that assumption regarding DW? I don't know about you, but I apply DW at the start and then watch them bleed out while I spam other scythe attacks.

+20 dmg + 40 dmg against casters? That's more than you're likely to get from the alternatives in HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

What is cheaper a skill that costs 35 energy every 60 seconds or a skill that cost 5 energy every 3 seconds?

What? Who is using WS every 3 sec? I know I'm not. Nor is anyone who actually knows what the skill is for.

Besides, that's a flawed comparison. A more accurate one would be AoM+WS (30 en) for one DW vs WS (5 en) for one DW. Guess who wins that one?

Heck, let's get ridiculous.

For 1 DW: 30 vs 5
For 2 DWs: 35 (AoM+WS+WS) vs 10 (WS+WS)
For 3 DWs: 40 (AoM+WSx3) vs 15 (WSx3)
For 4 DWs (assume AoM has run out): 70 (AoMx2+EA+WSx4) vs 20(WSx4)

Three skills to inflict DW is NOT cheaper than one skill, not when the actual skills doing the wounding have the same cost. Difference is one has setup and maintenance to inflict the DW, one does not.

Improvavel · May 11, 2009, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Actually, I did point out Victorious Sweep. It beats Mystic Sweep and Eremite's Attack easily. Probably better than Chilling Victory too as a skill overall. However, it isn't as good for killing stuff quickly; it's good for dealing consistent damage and keeping you alive longer.

Wrong. CV is more spike less constant damage. With that recharge and cost you can use 2 vs.

Quote:

DW is actually more effective at the start of a fight than at the end because of how it reduces the effect of healing by 20%. It's also better to apply it at the start than at the end because there's less risk of that 100 dmg being overkill.

Of course at the beginning of the battle the deep wound can be removed and healed. DW i the end will generate a spike that will give very few time to react. Of course it doesn't explain wearying strike vs WS.

Quote:

How did I make that assumption regarding DW? I don't know about you, but I apply DW at the start and then watch them bleed out while I spam other scythe attacks.

So how long do you take to kill a mob? Bleeding is 6 damage per second.

Quote:

+20 dmg + 40 dmg against casters? That's more than you're likely to get from the alternatives in HM.

2 victorious sweeps deals the same.

Quote:

What? Who is using WS every 3 sec? I know I'm not. Nor is anyone who actually knows what the skill is for.

So you don't need to use it every 3 seconds. But the only advantage of it over other deep wounds is the ability to use it every 3 seconds.

Quote:

Besides, that's a flawed comparison. A more accurate one would be AoM+WS (30 en) for one DW vs WS (5 en) for one DW. Guess who wins that one?

Wrong.

During a single AoM you can use wearying 11 times. And wearying strike is +damage.

Quote:

Heck, let's get ridiculous.

For 1 DW: 30 vs 5
For 2 DWs: 35 (AoM+WS+WS) vs 10 (WS+WS)
For 3 DWs: 40 (AoM+WSx3) vs 15 (WSx3)
For 4 DWs (assume AoM has run out): 70 (AoMx2+EA+WSx4) vs 20(WSx4)

Three skills to inflict DW is NOT cheaper than one skill, not when the actual skills doing the wounding have the same cost. Difference is one has setup and maintenance to inflict the DW, one does not.

If it was only deep wound you would be right. But its +100 health, condition immunity, +damage, +damage from eternal aura, and eternal aura recharges other skills too.

And why would AoM run out after 18 seconds? It lasts 66 seconds!

So what you going to do with your other 50 energy?

PS. I'm starting to think that WS is used less because its 3 seconds recharge and more because players can't use avatar of melandru - swap weapons, use energy management, etc.

reaper with no name · May 11, 2009, 08:13 PM // 20:13

CV is for killing stuff quickly. That's what a spike is. I never said it was constant damage.

Too bad you can't have two victorious sweeps on your bar. Believe me, I wish I could. I'd have 2 or 3, and I would never recommend CV to anyone ever again for any reason.

Because you're not applying DW every 6 sec, I assume. Realistically, over the course of AoM, you'll use it maybe 2 or 3 times. Guess what? 2 or 3 uses of Wearying Strike costs more than 2 or 3 uses of WS. So does 4 or 5. In fact, x uses of Wearying Strike with AoM costs more than x uses of WS. The only differences are the AoM and EA costs.

Yes, AoM gives you +100 HP and condition immunity, but unless there's a lot of conditions being spread it's just not worth the energy.

Why waste the time swapping weapons and managing energy (when you could be killing stuff) if you don't have to? That's the problem. While you're swapping weapons and all that, you're not fighting. You're not contributing. Compensating for the energy cost of AoM does not negate it; you only sacrifice something else instead. Time or a skill slot or whatnot.

Besides, switching weapons doesn't help as much for energy management as one might think. I used to do it, but then I realized that after you switch back, you have an energy deficit that you have to pay before you get back any energy. In other words, you're not really gaining energy so much as borrowing it and paying it back later.

What am I going to do with the energy I don't spend on AoM? Well, when I run my WS build (I don't always do so; I also like playing avatars and even EDA; it just depends on the situation) I use it on scythe attacks or For Great Justice! (I like spamming SY!).

Improvavel · May 11, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

CV is for killing stuff quickly. That's what a spike is. I never said it was constant damage.
Too bad you can't have two victorious sweeps on your bar. Believe me, I wish I could. I'd have 2 or 3, and I would never recommend CV to anyone ever again for any reason.

Of course another way of spiking is victorious sweep+mystic sweep.

CV+mystic sweep won't be available as many times.

Quote:

Because you're not applying DW every 6 sec, I assume. Realistically, over the course of AoM, you'll use it maybe 2 or 3 times. Guess what? 2 or 3 uses of Wearying Strike costs more than 2 or 3 uses of WS. So does 4 or 5. In fact, x uses of Wearying Strike with AoM costs more than x uses of WS. The only differences are the AoM and EA costs.

So basically your elite is sitting there idle most of the time.

Quote:

Yes, AoM gives you +100 HP and condition immunity, but unless there's a lot of conditions being spread it's just not worth the energy.

But an elite that is there doing nothing is? And there are more conditions than most folks seems to believe, especially in the places that are actually hard.

Quote:

Why waste the time swapping weapons and managing energy (when you could be killing stuff) if you don't have to? That's the problem. While you're swapping weapons and all that, you're not fighting. You're not contributing. Compensating for the energy cost of AoM does not negate it; you only sacrifice something else instead. Time or a skill slot or whatnot.

It is really time consuming to swap weapons...

Quote:

Besides, switching weapons doesn't help as much for energy management as one might think. I used to do it, but then I realized that after you switch back, you have an energy deficit that you have to pay before you get back any energy. In other words, you're not really gaining energy so much as borrowing it and paying it back later.

4 words : [attackers insight] and mysticism.

This means you can switch to a staff cast your enchantments, that thanks to eternal aura u can keep on all the time, I mean heart of fury and aura of holy might, and when you return you can attack thanks to attackers insight.

Then mysticism kicks in.

Quote:

What am I going to do with the energy I don't spend on AoM? Well, when I run my WS build (I don't always do so; I also like playing avatars and even EDA; it just depends on the situation) I use it on scythe attacks or For Great Justice! (I like spamming SY!).

Of course a wearying strike needs less attack skills than a WS, as wearying strike deals damage too.

Axel Zinfandel · May 11, 2009, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Wounding Strike is good in NM wear the low recharge is needed because you switch targets so often.

Other alternatives would be more useful in higher end PvE

Helix Dreadlock · May 12, 2009, 12:37 AM // 00:37

I have an easy answer to your questions. [Zealous Vow] Use with [Aura of Holy Might] [Eremite's Attack] and [Mystic Sweep] for constant spamming of free skills. Throw in [Mystic Vigor] and a Vampiric Fortitude Scythe for a nice heal+extra damage. You've got yourself a good energy management there.

Shadowmere · May 12, 2009, 01:43 AM // 01:43

ok from my understanding of the uses of [wounding strike] it's to inflict dw early and often on foes lowering their health by a considerable amount and reducing their healing for as long as the dw lasts (which given WS recharge should be until the target is dead) Put simply it's an elite who's sole purpose is to maintain dw on a target, why? Well having dw on a high health target means the reduction in healing will be more effective (since it will be in place longer). Also something else no one else has mentioned is that WS comes with it's own cover condition for dw, the bleeding, meaning unless there is focused condition removal by foes the dw will stay for a while (and it should always last long enough for you to re-apply it if necessary).

Compare it to say [reaper's sweep] (which after it's update I personally prefer over ws) reaper's has the ability to inflict dw but only on foes below 50% hp this combined with it's hefty bonus damage means reaper's is meant as a spike-finishing move, meaning of course reaper's dw is focused on it's health lowering effects not it's healing reduction. After the update which allowed reaper's to remove enchants on high health targets there's not even a real downside to not meeting the dw condition since you can remove enemy enchants (almost always a good thing except if removing other derv's enchants which might end up helping them more than hurting).

there's all this talk of [chilling victory] too, while I very much understand it's power in pvp; in pve however armor effected cold damage is not something to write home about. Chilling has decent bonus damage yes but it costs 10 energy and has a 10s recharge additionally it's bonus aoe requires you to have more health which given many pve monster's health levels can be very very misleading. Meaning it's very much a guessing game if you trigger the bonus damage or not, and even if you trigger the bonus damage it may be reduced by half or more on high armor pve targets. As near as I can tell CV is not a good skill to bring in high level pve it's pros really don't outweigh it's cons here.

I'm not sure why people were comparing [chilling victory] to [mystic sweep] and [eremite's attack] the reasoning behind bringing CV or MS/EA are completely different (or at least that's how I was introduced to these skills). Mystic and Eremite's are not recommended by so many for their bonus damage (more often than not you won't trigger even half the their bonus damage potential). The reason people recommend them for pve is because in pve they have a less than 1 second activation time meaning you can greatly increase your attack speed by spamming these two attacks. Combined with an IAS skill these two can take the normally sluggish attack speed of the scythe and turn it into a slicing dicing blur.
And while I would hope the advantage of cranking the attack speed of the highest damage weapon in the game up to overdrive would be obvious it means you'll trigger attack based bonuses much faster, things like; [avatar of lyssa] bonus damage, assassin critical strikes, warrior strength armor penetration, sundering mods, etc.

reaper with no name · May 12, 2009, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Of course another way of spiking is victorious sweep+mystic sweep.

CV+mystic sweep won't be available as many times.

So basically your elite is sitting there idle most of the time.

But an elite that is there doing nothing is? And there are more conditions than most folks seems to believe, especially in the places that are actually hard.

It is really time consuming to swap weapons...

4 words : [attackers insight] and mysticism.

This means you can switch to a staff cast your enchantments, that thanks to eternal aura u can keep on all the time, I mean heart of fury and aura of holy might, and when you return you can attack thanks to attackers insight.

Then mysticism kicks in.

Of course a wearying strike needs less attack skills than a WS, as wearying strike deals damage too.

Better to have an elite that doesn't do much most of the time than an elite that does almost nothing all the time and costs a lot of energy, which is exactly what AoM is outside of condition-heavy areas (and by the way, just because WS doesn't get used very often doesn't make it any less effective; indeed, one of the advantages of it is that you only need to apply it once and then can focus on other things while it passively works it's magic; the same is true of the avatars; cast them once and they're good for a solid minute). There are only a couple of conditions that actually hurt melee all that much, and those are either rare or easily removed. It's only when you have a ton of them being used on you that AoM's condition immunity is worth all the energy.

Wearying Strike is not a good attack skill. It doesn't deal nearly enough damage and takes too long to recharge. In fact, as an attack skill, I'd say WS is better because the bleeding is going to do a heck of a lot more damage than Wearying Strike will, and unlike Wearying Strike, it doesn't have to get applied as often to do that extra damage (I'm not talking about the DW, just the damage).

If you're taking attacker's insight for energy management, then that's yet another skill slot used up just to fuel everything. And really, what are you getting out of it? 100 HP. That's about it. You don't need the condition immunity in most places any more than you need to inflict a DW every 3 seconds.

You keep saying "Oh, well, I can compensate for the energy costs". But in doing so, you are using up time and skill slots that could be used for something else. That's the advantage of Wounding Strike. You can get your nice consistent DW for one skill slot, as opposed to 3 or 4. I mean, seriously, if you're taking attacker's insight, avatar of melandru, eternal aura, and wearying strike, what are you getting?

Let's compare some example bars:

[Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury][Attacker's Insight][Avatar of Melandru][Wearying Strike][Eternal Aura][Optional][Optional]

[Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury][Wounding Strike][Optional][Optional][Optional][Optional][Optional]

Look at this. Look at how many more options the WS build has. If it wanted to, it could equip 5 attack skills. That's impractical, of course, but it demonstrates the point.

Now, let's assume you want two attack skills. To keep things fair, of course, the WS build gets two attack skills.

[Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury][Attacker's Insight][Avatar of Melandru][Wearying Strike][Eternal Aura][Mystic Sweep][Eremite's Attack]

[Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury][Wounding Strike][Mystic Sweep][Eremite's Attack][Optional][Optional][Optional]

Now, you may indeed be capable of fueling your build, but guess what? I've got 3 slots to play around with, so I can do this:

[Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury][Wounding Strike][Mystic Sweep][Eremite's Attack][For Great Justice][Save Yourselves!][Crippling Sweep]

Or this:

[Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury][Wounding Strike][Mystic Sweep][Eremite's Attack][Purge Conditions][Imbue Health][Rebirth]

Or this:

[Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury][Wounding Strike][Mystic Sweep][Eremite's Attack][Mystic Regeneration][Conviction][Vital Boon]

Or a million other combinations. I won't pretend to be an expert (especially when the second profession comes into play), but I have a whole host of options to give me other advantages over your build. The first one there lets me spam SY! (can your build do that without sacrificing attack skills or something equally important?) and cripple people.

The second one lets me heal and resurrect people in addition to mixing it up in melee. And in the event that conditions do bog me down, Purge!

The third one is very telling. The only advantage AoM has over it is condition immunity. That's it. In every other way it is inferior.

Oh, and if it really bothers me that I'm not immune to conditions, I can just get my monk to cast [Spotless Soul] on me (or at least I could, if I had EotN

).

A WS build might be burning it's elite for a consistent DW, but unless you're in a condition-heavy area, an AoM build is burning it's elite and 2-3 other skills for that same DW plus 100 health. Unless I'm dealing with a lot of conditions (which does come up, I will admit, and when it does I prefer AoM), I'll take the extra skill slots, thanks.

Axel Zinfandel · May 12, 2009, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Or this:

[Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury][Wounding Strike][Mystic Sweep][Eremite's Attack][Purge Conditions][Imbue Health][Rebirth]

That is terrible.

But anyway, I totally see your point now. Much more flexibility.

Snow Bunny · May 12, 2009, 09:57 PM // 21:57

I do not care about your flexibility in the build.

[wearying strike][aura of holy might][avatar of melandru][air of superiority]

Ok. I too have 4 slots for 1000000 unnecessary attack skills.

The fact is that the Wounding Strike build requires more attacks to make up for the paltry effectiveness of its elite.

ReaperWithNoName, those builds with the optional skills are terrible.

Condition is stronger than many of you think, especially in Eye of the North.

Improvavel · May 13, 2009, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Its just impressive how people can forget all the effects of skills.

Eternal Aura (I'll have to take some time one of these days to get air of superiority with my derv and check if I like it) doesn't recharge the avatar only. Recharge all derv skills. And deals damage.

It might not seem much, but it will recharge attack skills too, so your 2 attack skills (all a mel dervish needs really) will be used more that just 2 attack skills would. Air of superiority might be even more effective. The 100 damage or the recharge clause of eternal aura might not justify the use slot in a build without an avatar, but in an avatar build it does more than just recharge the avatar.

Wearying strike will basically the same or more +damage than mystic and ermits and of course it deep wounds with no drawbacks in a mel bar. In fact, Wearying strike is the best deep wound attack skill for dervishes with the exception of WS and Reaper's sweep which are an elite.

With the exception of UW and FoW, where conditions aren't very threatening, all the other areas worth doing have harmful conditions.

And then what you do with your leftover slots is just terrible, with the exception of "save yourselves".

Actually Snow Bunny posted a Melandru build with [[draw conditions] which has enormous synergy, but still sucks cause you don't want to stop attacking to cast stuff that doesn't contribute to your offensive role.

Your are just trying to do the roles of the mid liners (Paras, mesmers, necors, eles) and they will do it much more efficiently.

I have a dervish and enjoy playing it, but other than avatars, while the builds can be fun, dervishes are just inferior to the other melee classes.

If you are playing with a full human party, outside the situations Melandru and Dwayna avatars can shine, your party will be much better served if you bring a warrior or an assassin instead of adervish.

This is the sad true for dervish players.

Outside of full/near full human parties and in areas where there are no/very few conditions [[wounding strike] and [[reapers sweep] can be a better choice. WS is far very far from being the top build for dervishes.

reaper with no name · May 14, 2009, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Reaper's Sweep doesn't always give you the DW, and over the long term it deals less damage than WS thanks to the bleeding.

Paltry effectiveness of WS? How about the paltry effectiveness of every other derv elite?

AoG - not enough damage or healing to be special
AoD - the end-all be-all for hex-heavy areas, otherwise not special
AoB - can be replicated without elites
AoL - still not enough damage to compete with a sin
AoM - the end-all be-all for condition-heavy areas, otherwise it's 25 energy for +100 hp. Woopee.
Reaper's Sweep - +40 dmg and a possible DW that relies on the opponent as the trigger (admittedly, this one is a match for WS)
Vow of Silence - not long enough to be worth a damn
Vow of Strength - useless unless no one in your party inflicts conditions
Pious Renewal - a better mysticism, only really useful for gimmick builds

When those are the choices, yeah, I'll take bleeding and DW anyday. At least those are going to be useful.

Now, if you want to know what I personally do with my extra slots, I spam SY! and For Great Justice!

Wearying Strike is not going to match the damage output of Mystic sweep unless you're getting your enchantments stripped. Any derv worth his salt is going to have AoHM and HoF. That's +20 dmg right there, matching Wearying Strike. Throw in any other enchantments they might have and the enchantments from other players and they're easily hitting that +30.

Now, I don't have EotN, so I can't say how many conditions you face there. But if you do face a lot, then AoM is better, no question. This is about when you're not facing lots of conditions.

Quote:

If you are playing with a full human party, outside the situations Melandru and Dwayna avatars can shine, your party will be much better served if you bring a warrior or an assassin instead of adervish.

It doesn't exactly shine, but...

[For Great Justice!][Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury][Mystic Sweep][Wounding Strike][Victorious Sweep][Save Yourselves!][Faithful Intervention]

This is what I use (unless there's a lot of blindness/weakness/hexes). It can consistently DW multiple foes at once (scythe warrior can't do that) and use a scythe fairly effectively to deal damage while spamming SY! for party survivability (scythe sin can't do that). Oh, and what do you know? Faithful Intervention essentially gives me +100 hp.

So, I'm DWing just as well as AoM, for practical purposes I'm just as tough, and I have the additional advantage of being able to spam SY! every 10 sec or so. Meanwhile, AoM has condition immunity that won't mean much of anything in most places (though in the places where it is meaningful, it definitely wins out over this), and costs more energy. It's only significant edge is Eternal Aura's AoE. Sorry, but my WS build > AoM outside of condition-heavy areas.

It's a niche build, to be certain, but outside of AoD's or AoM's areas, it's one of the better choices for a derv. But then again, AoD and AoM are niche builds too, because they're really not special outside of their respective areas. And unlike those niche builds, mine is guaranteed to at least have some use in every area in the game.

And guess what? People do play dervs outside of elite areas, and in those cases, AoM and AoD just aren't worth using. If you want to DW, you can do it just as well with WS as with AoM. If you want the extra hp, you can get it other ways. And at the end, you'll have more energy and an extra skill slot than if you had just gone with AoM.

If you want the extra survivability that AoD offers, grab AoG or even the terrible AoB (even it's better than AoD for pure survivability).

Jeez, is it really so hard to accept that AoM and AoD are not always the best option for a derv?

Improvavel · May 14, 2009, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Snip

So you saying that you don't really need WY 3 secs recharge. You use it because all the other stuff is worse.

That's quite a long way from saying that WY is the ubber leet skill and you need the DW every 3 seconds.

And about the bleeding - If someone has dw you better be able to kill it before the bleeding does anything worth of consideration.

Megas XLR · May 15, 2009, 03:08 AM // 03:08

I like Wounding Strike because it spams conditions on the enemies.. which is a plus for Discord.

Think of the bleeding as an added benefit, not as the main focus.