Curse

Slasher of Darkness · Dec 26, 2008, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Hi all!

I just wanted to ask you ppls..that are Dervishes wanted in groups? Are they needed? Coz i dont see many ppl yelling like..need derv need derv or w/e. Just wanna see what you ppl think..and then decide if i play my derv or my elementalist

Thanks Ahead

kostolomac · Dec 26, 2008, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Dervishes aren't popular since most people think that AoE deep wound covered by bleeding is bad.
Dervishes are a very versatile class and if you like playing them do it.

MercenaryKnight · Dec 26, 2008, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Dervishes should be used, in pve atleast. But for the most part I think pve is more into tank n spank like RoJ and cryway. Or w/d with warriors endurance and scythe to spam attacks.

Should try doing elite areas with orders necro, healer, rit with splinter weapon and greater dwarf weapon, then however many dervishes with eternal aura and avatar of dwayna. That way you can go play in any area such as fow hm without worrying about hexes.

If conditions are more of a hazard then switch to melandru etc.

Luminarus · Dec 26, 2008, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Are they used in the base setup of any elite area build. No

Can they be used in elite areas. Yes

Why is this? For scythe damage, warriors or assassins do it better. For tanking, warriors, assassins, or eles do it better. For orders, they are on par with necros. For healing they fail. Thats all the roles for a derv I can think of.

Improvavel · Dec 26, 2008, 12:26 PM // 12:26

The main advantage of dervishes is their avatar forms, namely melandru that can get rid of annoying conditions or dwayna for hexes. The other main advantage is that they can still do good damage in an instance another melee character would be shut due to AoE enchantments, namely [[Eternal aura] + [[Aura of holy might].

shoyon456 · Dec 26, 2008, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

For scythe damage, warriors or assassins do it better.

Are you stupid? Sure you have scythe sins, but Dervs still beat it in the long run. The beauty of a derv is in part the big numbers you hit that dont come with a warrior or derv.

Fallen Royalty · Dec 26, 2008, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Are you stupid? Sure you have scythe sins, but Dervs still beat it in the long run. The beauty of a derv is in part the big numbers you hit that dont come with a warrior or derv.

But for PvE, Warriors and Assassins are just better with a scythe than a Dervish. Dervs are 88.5% squishy. Warriors may have a slightly lesser damage output but they have 100AL and their energy is more managable due to Warrior's Endurance. Assassins have 70AL like a Dervish but they have Critical Defenses, and Critical Agility, plus Critical Eye and Way of the Master to keep them up. This means 95AL and 75% block chance plus constant scythe criticals, which is better than a standard Dervish.

I've seen PvE builds that even use Ritualists with scythes. A Spirit's Strength Ritualist wielding a scythe and using the right combination of skills is more effective than a Dervish TBH.

Pleikki · Dec 26, 2008, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Dervishes are used in many places, just not in pugs, Guilds etc use em.

Forgotton200 · Dec 26, 2008, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen Royalty

But for PvE, Warriors and Assassins are just better with a scythe than a Dervish. Dervs are 88.5% squishy. Warriors may have a slightly lesser damage output but they have 100AL and their energy is more managable due to Warrior's Endurance. Assassins have 70AL like a Dervish but they have Critical Defenses, and Critical Agility, plus Critical Eye and Way of the Master to keep them up. This means 95AL and 75% block chance plus constant scythe criticals, which is better than a standard Dervish.

I've seen PvE builds that even use Ritualists with scythes. A Spirit's Strength Ritualist wielding a scythe and using the right combination of skills is more effective than a Dervish TBH.

Wow....What a sad life you dervs got.

I also heard R/D with [apply poison] is better off than a scythe derv. Low energy cost (scythe skill spam) due to high expertise and what not.

I heard Dervs are good at healing though (support role), while assassin and warriors uses scythe to kill.

Luminarus · Dec 26, 2008, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Are you stupid? Sure you have scythe sins, but Dervs still beat it in the long run. The beauty of a derv is in part the big numbers you hit that dont come with a warrior or derv.

With warriors endurance, spamming attacks constantly warrior deal more damage due to strength armor penetration. As well as this, their armor provides the ability to take some severe damage, and if the team needs it they can stock save yourselves on the bar. Only downside is no elite, but thats not so much a problem when your using 3-4 attack skills every 3 -4 seconds.

With assassins, crit strikes ensure more crits, and the massive scythe crit damage means they do more then a dervish. Sins also have access to critical agility which is one of, if not the best IAS in the game.

The only time a derv is more worth it is in areas with lots of conditions or hexes, for the avatars. However, tbh monks can usually cover that especially with the spotless skills, so it isnt really worth the elite.

Also, wtf are you talking about the big numbers that you dont get with a sin or warrior? (assuming u meant warrior when u said derv). Sins will hit for more damage from autoattacking, and warriors will hit for the same, possibly a bit more dps if they are running a warrior based ias (flail for example, as oposed to the non maintainable derv IAS). If your refering to attack skills, the only real difference will be the damage from the derv elite if brought (give or take 2-3 damage from the + damage on other derv attacks). Im assuming ur using a scythe elite, for the argument reapers for its + damage. If you want wounding, you get deepwound at the expense of the + damage which changes the whole calculation.

Reapers does the same + damage as power attack, so the damage will be virtually identical. The follow up attacks, protectors, mystic, and/or eremites will all do basically the same damage unless target is moving when warrior comes out clearly ahead due to the + 38ish from protectors. Also then consider that reapers recharges in 8, so you get that damage only every 8 seconds, whilst with the warrior you can hit it every 3 seconds.

If using wounding, then you can (theoretically) spike every 3 seconds, and hit the deep wound. however, you then lack the + 38 from the power/reapers attack. Since the "damage" from deepwound is capped at 100, 2.5 attack cycles (8-10 seconds) will mean that the damage "gained" from deep wound has been neutralised by the + damage. This does not take into account the healing reduction inherant to deepwound.

Yes you could take conjure on a derv to increase the damage, but the fact is that the derv with the scythe is starting off on a gimped basis. Its 10-30 armor less then a warrior, and possibly similar with a sin (crit agility's + 24 armor) unless using cons.

Is it viable, yes. Is there a reason not to bring a derv, no. Is there a better option, yes.

Maccarelly · Dec 26, 2008, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Generally Dervishes aren't popular due the Scythe being put to good use by other professions.

The main use of Dervishes in PvE is the use of their main atribute Mysticism, the dervishes have access to avatars, VoS and Arcane Zeal which is good for a healing build.

MegaVolti · Dec 26, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

Yes you could take conjure on a derv to increase the damage, but the fact is that the derv with the scythe is starting off on a gimped basis. Its 10-30 armor less then a warrior, and possibly similar with a sin (crit agility's + 24 armor) unless using cons.

Is it viable, yes. Is there a reason not to bring a derv, no. Is there a better option, yes.

No conjure. You'd miss out on [[aura of holy might] if you bring a conjure, which is a bad idea.
As for damage: Assassins are best with scythes, but even Warriors beat Dervishes because of the strength armor penetration.

Except for avatars there is no real reason to run Derv as primary (maybe for orders support with some healing ...).

Tyla · Dec 26, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen Royalty

But for PvE, Warriors and Assassins are just better with a scythe than a Dervish. Dervs are 88.5% squishy. Warriors may have a slightly lesser damage output but they have 100AL and their energy is more managable due to Warrior's Endurance.

If it wasn't for Power Attack that would be overthrown.

Quote:

Assassins have 70AL like a Dervish but they have Critical Defenses, and Critical Agility, plus Critical Eye and Way of the Master to keep them up. This means 95AL and 75% block chance plus constant scythe criticals, which is better than a standard Dervish.

Critical Defenses is crap when you could devote more of your bar to helping your party or dealing more damage.

The only true place a Dervish is superior is with Dwayna and Melandru - but if you want to play one go ahead.

Lishy · Dec 27, 2008, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

or assassins do it better.

Critical scythe is just a bunch of stacked enchants which can easily be removed in elite areas. And the critical % is so low, that even a necromancer with a scythe can out-dps the common critical scythe build in elite areas.
Criticals vs level 20 enemies are NOT the same as level 28. I've tested.

Besides. The new avatar of Grenth can lead to very interesting results.

Scythe O F Glory · Dec 27, 2008, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Dervishes are best played as a secondary. Critscythes, WE scythes, Escape scythes, etc. The Mysticism attribute just isnt as useful for scythe damage as Expertise and Critical Strikes. However, many people underestimate some of the better dervish skills, such as [Avatar of Lyssa]. I use [Avatar of Lyssa]+[Aura of Holy Might]+[Heart of Fury] because +41 damage on an already high hit is nice

MegaVolti · Dec 27, 2008, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Critical scythe is just a bunch of stacked enchants which can easily be removed in elite areas. And the critical % is so low, that even a necromancer with a scythe can out-dps the common critical scythe build in elite areas.
Criticals vs level 20 enemies are NOT the same as level 28. I've tested.

Besides. The new avatar of Grenth can lead to very interesting results.

I've tested it, too. And even against lvl30 mobs you will get tons of criticals. No, not nearly 100%, but still a lot.
The only problem with the A/D is that it's very vulnerable to enchantment stripping. But the D/any has exactly the same problem. W/D are the only scythe attackers that won't rely that much on enchantments.

And Avatar of Grenth still sucks

Dwayna, Melandru and Lyssa are interesting and imho not really worth making a Dervish for ...

Tyla · Dec 27, 2008, 03:42 AM // 03:42

A Critical Scythes' crit rate will still be higher than that of a Dervish because of the spec into Critical Strikes which adds onto all of the other buffs from Critical Eye, Way of the Master, so forth and so on. Saying that it's "just a bunch of stacked enchants" is really putting down a real Dervish too, in a way.

shoyon456 · Dec 27, 2008, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Crit Scythesin- Not PvE effective, as mentioned above, you have a low % critrate on higher level enemies, especially in Hardmode. Also, it relies on enchantments that are easily stripped. While the dervish also relies on enchants, you cannot strip avatars and loosing an enchant fuels a derv's energy pool.

Scythe Wars- First off, a warrior HAS to use Warriors Endurance to use a scythe, otherwise their energy pool won't allow for scythe attacks. This severly limits what you can do with a scythe war. A war would be better off using zealous vow frankly. Yes, they take .341% more damage than a war vs. physical attacks. As small as this may be, if your monks are absolute retards, this is could be a problem. Dervish Avatars compare to Warrior utility. While you can only carry one Avatar at a time, Each one is about 3 different skills rolled into one, and in PvE are indefinitely maintainable.

Scythe Ranger- spammable attacks and +30 al vs elemental dmg. If you know how to use a derv, you should be able to hit your skills and time it according to when your enchants expire, continually fueling your skills. You do have downtime needed to cast, but in exchange I will again mention that you have additional utility for a tradeoff. Escape only blocks attacks, and while it does have a short recharge, lets look at it in terms of %. It is up 8 secs at 16 expertise, and has a recharge of 12 secs. Escape is only up 66.66% of the time, add that to the fact that it only blocks 75% of the time! Do the math you end up with exactly a 50% chance to block when running escape scythe.

AND it is a stance, which means you cant have another active at the same time and it can be cancelled by some attacks.

The Dervish- Relies on strippable enchants to fuel energy pool. While being stirpped hurts, it only serves recharge the derv. In addition, the main reason for a derv primary (as stated earlier) is avatars, which are not strippable and continually maintainable in pve.

Summary: Warrior is closest to par in terms of using a scythe with a dervish. And even that is compromised because a war is forced to take Warriors Endurance as his elite. A dervish is not limited in terms of elites by taking a scythe, and can pack utility/healing/more damage into one skill that cant be stripped. Leave each class to its' primary weapon!

MegaVolti · Dec 27, 2008, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Cit Scythesins ARE effective in PvE. You WILL get tons of crits, even vs high lvl enemies.
But Moebius + Death Blossom usually is even more effective

Which isn't really good for Dervishes. They can't compete damage-wise with Assassins and their defense is also not really better.

So to answer the initial question, are Dervishes needed?
In short: No.
In long: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooo.

Tyla · Dec 27, 2008, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Crit Scythesin- Not PvE effective, as mentioned above, you have a low % critrate on higher level enemies, especially in Hardmode. Also, it relies on enchantments that are easily stripped. While the dervish also relies on enchants, you cannot strip avatars and loosing an enchant fuels a derv's energy pool.

Scythe Wars- First off, a warrior HAS to use Warriors Endurance to use a scythe, otherwise their energy pool won't allow for scythe attacks. This severly limits what you can do with a scythe war. A war would be better off using zealous vow frankly. Yes, they take .341% more damage than a war vs. physical attacks. As small as this may be, if your monks are absolute retards, this is could be a problem. Dervish Avatars compare to Warrior utility. While you can only carry one Avatar at a time, Each one is about 3 different skills rolled into one, and in PvE are indefinitely maintainable.

Scythe Ranger- spammable attacks and +30 al vs elemental dmg. If you know how to use a derv, you should be able to hit your skills and time it according to when your enchants expire, continually fueling your skills. You do have downtime needed to cast, but in exchange I will again mention that you have additional utility for a tradeoff. Escape only blocks attacks, and while it does have a short recharge, lets look at it in terms of %. It is up 8 secs at 16 expertise, and has a recharge of 12 secs. Escape is only up 66.66% of the time, add that to the fact that it only blocks 75% of the time! Do the math you end up with exactly a 50% chance to block when running escape scythe.

AND it is a stance, which means you cant have another active at the same time and it can be cancelled by some attacks.

The Dervish- Relies on strippable enchants to fuel energy pool. While being stirpped hurts, it only serves recharge the derv. In addition, the main reason for a derv primary (as stated earlier) is avatars, which are not strippable and continually maintainable in pve.

Summary: Warrior is closest to par in terms of using a scythe with a dervish. And even that is compromised because a war is forced to take Warriors Endurance as his elite. A dervish is not limited in terms of elites by taking a scythe, and can pack utility/healing/more damage into one skill that cant be stripped. Leave each class to its' primary weapon!

I think you're missing out a lot of key shit here.

For one, Critical Eye, Critical Strikes and Scythe Mastery all count to critting. Whether or not Way of the Master gets stripped is out of the question, you'll be getting more crits regardless.

Two, Critscythes are only based on one enchantment, and that enchantment is Way of the Master. It getting removed is a pretty big dent in your work, but if there's so much enchantment removal you're going to want a W/D instead.

Three, Power Attack and areas with heavy enchantment removal are the only reasons to pick a Warrior, otherwise an Assassin would be better for the job.

Four, a Warrior is forced to take Warrior's Endurance, but the Dervish can freely use their elite. What exactly are you going to use? The Warrior can pretty much roll their head on the keyboard with enough energy management and efficiency, but the Dervish only has avatars (which take up an elite and an extra slot + PvE skill) and Wounding Strike to compare.

Calling Scythesins a joke in PvE is like not taking £100000 as a reward for some thing or another to do whatever you please with.