Curse

wilebill · Aug 23, 2009, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Made this dual mode bow and scythe Grenth build for solo questing and points grinding with heroes and hench in Eye of the North, but it should be useful everywhere. It exploits the fact that the Grenth attack bonus applies to bows also!

With Grenth up, Heart of Fury up, and a vampiric flatbow as described below and only 6 in Marksmanship, expect damage against targets such as Krait to run 35 to 49 at the firing rate of a shortbow boosted 33%. And you are at longbow range taking little or no damage!

D/R
Mysticism 15, Sup rune
Scythe Mastery 12, Minor rune
Earth Prayers 7, Minor rune
Marksmanship 6

Eternal Aura, Avatar of Grenth, Heart of Fury; the rest whatever you like.

Bow: Test the build with your pulling bow. If it works for you and you like it, get a better bow. The one I chose was the Ascalon Flatbow from the collector Daved Logsdon in Tears of the Fallen, Prophecies. Damage 13-25, 15%>50, req 6 Marksmanship. You will need to find a vampiric bowstring, maybe add a bow grip. He wants 4 Abnormal Seeds.

If you leave out of Temple of the Ages, Abnormal Seeds are a common drop from the plant creatures right outside the Temple. I went over with my R/Rit Spun Ducky Build and had enough Abnormal Seeds to buy three bows by the time I got to Daved.

Why not more in Marks and run a full power bow? I don't see any reason to, really. 13-25 is not that far from 15-28 and you are saving 3 ranks worth of points. Testing this bow on my Ranger, there is really not much difference.

This build idea also works using Lyssa's higher attack bonus, but Grenth has more consistent damage. Besides, Grenth reminds me of my Grandfather!

The general idea is to attack the mob from longbow range, wait until your heroes and hench are aggroed and then pick your target and finish the fight with your scythe. However with obnoxious targets such as Chromatic Drakes and various of the dinosaurs, elementals and such, you can stand at longbow range and take them all down fairly quickly without annoying spells, hexes, and conditions spoiling your fun.

Marverick · Aug 23, 2009, 03:06 AM // 03:06

FYI, you need 12 marksmanship to get 13-25 damage. With 6 marksmanship you will do 8-15 damage.

wilebill · Aug 23, 2009, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Check Marksmanship on the Wiki. All you have to do is meet the Marksmanship requirement to get the stated bow damage; but that is raw bow damage, true. There are two more factors involved.

1. Critical Strike chance goes up with higher marksmanship. At marks 6 you get a 9% crit chance. At marks 12, you get a 17% crit chance.

2. Higher Marksmanship beyond the requirement will not affect the base damage of the bow, but can affect the actual damage level taking into account the level and armor level of the target. I cannot find this calculation for bows and piercing damage at the moment. Perhaps someone has the formula handy?

3. The numbers for observed damage above suggest the bow is functioning properly. Running various builds on my Ranger with req 9 bows with Marksmanship varying from 10 to 16 I cannot say that I have ever noticed any difference at all except in crit rate and in the effectiveness of Ranger bow skills.

Swahnee · Aug 23, 2009, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Having a higher marksmanship will increase your Base Damage Rating.

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_calculation

Let's make an example (calculations made with Excel):

1) -Raw Damage = 15-28
-Damage Scaler = 1.38 (1.15*1.20, which is 15>50 and customized)
-Level (yours) = 20 -> Threshold = 12
-Rank (marksmanship) = 12
-Base Damage Rating & Effective Damage Rating = 60
-Base Armor Rating & Effective Armor Rating (foe's armor) = 60 (caster)
-Damage Shifter = 5 (vampiric)

In this case the Effective Damage is 26-44, and 34-60 if it's critical

2) The same as above, but with Rank(marksmanship) = 6. In this case ED is 17-28, and 22-37 on criticals. This is because your Base Damage Rating increases depending on how much Rank is bigger than Threshold. Threshold depends only on your level, and it's: Threshold = Level/2+2, so if you're level 20, your Threshold is always 12.

For this reason, it's always better to increase your weapon mastery attribute, if you want to deal damage with your weapon.

3) The same as 1), but now Rank = 6, and Raw Damage = 13-25 (your first bow). In this case ED is 16-26, and 20-34 on criticals.

To sum it up:

Raw Damage -Rank Effective Damage (average, non critical)
15-28 -----> 12 ------> 35
15-28 -----> 6 -------> 22.5
13-25 -----> 6 -------> 21

So you lose 14 points of damage per hit using the third bow. You where right when you said that there was little difference between the two Raw Damages (from 13-25 to 15-28), and actually you see from the table that the difference between the average damage from case 3) to case 2) is only 1.5 damage.

But you didn't take into account the effect of the attribute investment. Passing from 12 point in marksmanship to 6 point (from case 1 to case 2) makes your damage decrease by 12.5 points per hit.

I know that probably this is difficult to see in-game because the effective damage you see depends on a lot of factors.

And remember that i've done this calculations supposing that the foe has 60 AR. If you hit a foe with higher armor, the difference between the three cases will become smaller. For example, case 1 against AR 80 is 26 average damage, case 3 against AR 80 is 16.5 average damage, with 9.5 of difference instead of 14 (against 60 AR). Case 1 against AR 100 is 19.5 average, case 3 against AR 100 is 12.5 average, with only 7 damage of average difference.

So i would sacrifice marksmanship for earth prayers only if i can be sure that this increase in earth prayers would give me a better effective damage than that obtained with maxed marksmanship.

However, your build is really interesting^^

wilebill · Aug 23, 2009, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Swahnee, thanks for taking the time to make these calculations. Very easy to understand explanation of the results.

In fact, I did not intend to make a build featuring primary bow damage. With what I wanted out of Earth, I found that I still had enough points left over to hit Marksmanship 6. The bow side just uses spare points. The build itself is still a primary scythe build for either Grenth or Lyssa.

With no spare points at all, marksmanship 0, and using a 7-11 no attribute flatbow, the damage from the Grenth or Lyssa bonus remains constant and with a total damage of only 23 or 24 is still good enough to begin combat or even take down drakes, elementals, and such although it does take a bit longer to do it. And of course, as stated, this idea is intended for use solo with heroes and hench.

Swahnee · Aug 23, 2009, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Ok i think i understand now..your primary weapon is still a scythe, but you also want a bow to do some damage when you are not (or you don't want to be) in the middle of things..

if this is the case, then i agree with your thoughts^^

but now i'm curious about this idea of using a bow as a primary weapon for a dervish O.o

think it could be fun

wilebill · Aug 23, 2009, 03:13 PM // 15:13

It could work. I nipped over and got Volley and leaving Marks at 6 and same little bow; went out into Magus Stones to try it out. The result is best described as KA-WHOOM! Of course you need to step back after first shot so the mob groups on your hench warrior and/or Flesh Golem who even the frog people will bunch up on.

Volley removes Ranger preparations, but it does not remove Grenth's bonus. I assume not Lyssa's either. A D/R AoE Nuking Build might be possible if the energy can be kept up. Worth thinking about.

Forgot to mention in my original post that one of the reasons for starting combat with a bow is to give the minions time to get into the battle before engaging with the scythe. My MM is Olias whom I call O'Lazius.

"Ah ha! I see from all the fresh corpses that there must have been a fierce battle here only recently. Fortunately, I don't need any of them since I kept all my minions safe up on the hill!"

Swahnee · Aug 23, 2009, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Yes same thing here with my MM's^^

so here we go again

:

Avatar of Grenth: steals 20 HP @ 15 mysticism
+
Vampiric bow: steals 5 per arrow
+
Nightmare weapon (you put it on a hero bar, say the SS hero): steals 31 @ 8 channeling

=

56 HP stolen per arrow, now spam your volley and LOL (maybe swap from time to time to a zealous bow to regain energy, maybe add triple shot to stole something like 56*3 = 168 health from the same target in one shot)

with this thing you can really forget about the base damage of your bow (the same concept of daggers: low raw damage but high "armor ignoring skill damage")

N.B.: Too bad that with Grenth you deal cold damage..i started thinking about Barbs, when i remembered this thing..

reaper with no name · Aug 24, 2009, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Interesting...A bow-using Dervish with AoG. Now that's the kind of creative thinking that could result in new good builds (well, by my "it's only good if the other guy can't do it better" definition

)!

I might have to try this out sometime, after I've finished toying with my zealous vow + pet build (only way I've found to make that elite "good").

Swahnee · Aug 24, 2009, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Interesting...A bow-using Dervish with AoG. Now that's the kind of creative thinking that could result in new good builds (well, by my "it's only good if the other guy can't do it better" definition

)!

I might have to try this out sometime, after I've finished toying with my zealous vow + pet build (only way I've found to make that elite "good").

Have you posted that build here on guru? It seems interesting too^^

reaper with no name · Aug 24, 2009, 07:56 PM // 19:56

It's nothing special, really; the pet is only there so that the build isn't completely redundant. But what the heck, I'll put it up.

Anyway, I'm thinking something like this for an AoG archer build:

Avatar of Grenth
Eternal Aura
Attacker's Insight
Volley
Triple Shot
Double Shot
Faithful Intervention
Heart of Fury

Mysticism 12+1+1
Wind Prayers 11+1
Marksmanship 6

(There's no practical benefit to Wind Prayers being higher than 12, since that's the breakpoint for Attacker's Insight to affect 3 attacks, and you won't need to reduce energy costs by more than 17)

I'll probably try this out when I get home later. Triple Shot is 19*3 = 57 life steal, and Dual Shot is 19*2=38 lifesteal, and in addition to that every two seconds you'll be stealing a minimum of 19 life (up to 19*4=76 life).

Not sure if HoF is necessary or even useful, but like I said, haven't tried it yet. Faithful Intervention is just there for the hell of it.

I don't think defense will be much of an issue (since you're an archer), but if it is, the newly buffed Conviction and Armor of Sanctity might also fit in well (not like those 6 points in marksmanship are gonna be enough for the weapon requirements of a bow anyway). It might be a little energy-intensive though (perhaps a zealous bow is the way to go here?).

wilebill · Aug 24, 2009, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Thanks reaper, good ideas here. As mentioned in original post there is a bow with just marks 6 requirement; though as discussed in following posts the damage is lower than expected due to marks being only 6 instead of 12.

There is also a collector Nicanor Gannel in Pockmark flats that has a 11-18 flatbow with a marks 3 requirement.

I have been using a vampiric bow string; every bit helps.

Bloody Dominator · Aug 24, 2009, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Ideas

O, that looks fun, gonna give it a go tommorow. And lets no forget about that nightmare weapon hero

(i'm actually pretty psyched about this, shame its alrdy 1 am lol)

And ofc Grenth + Bow looks cool

reaper with no name · Aug 25, 2009, 02:21 AM // 02:21

My initial experience with this indicates that HoF isn't really necessary after all. I'm not sure what to replace it with, though. Hmmm...Eh, what the heck, I'll just slap Mental Block on there for the heck of it. It fits with the build's concept in that sense.

I think I might also modify the attribute spread to this:

Wind Prayers 10+1+1
Mysticism 11+1
Marksmanship 10

Loss of 2 lifesteal per attack seems worth it to me if you can get the benefits of a max bow (that's what, 10 more damage per attack?).

And although I didn't get around to trying it with Nightmare Weapon, supposedly it will trigger for each attack, so Nightmare Weapon will almost certainly run out on the first attack (unless it's triggered on a D-shot or a volley that doesn't hit more than two people).

The real question, though, is which bow goes best with this build?

Swahnee · Aug 25, 2009, 01:12 PM // 13:12

*First of all, some remarks.

1.Heart of Fury. IMHO this skill is needed, because with Eternal Aura, it's a maintainable 33% IAS. Standard Rangers need two skills (Lightning Reflexes + Dwarven Stability) to get a 33% IAS, which isn't even maintainable.

2.Attacker's Insight is indeed a nice skill, but i think it's a bit difficult to make it fit in this build. Why?

First of all, 11 points in one attribute (Wind Prayers) are needed for it to be effective, and this means that i must steal some points from Mysticism and Marksmanship, reducing the damage (and even if they're little points of damage lost, you have to think that they are little points for every single arrow you shoot, and in the long run you are losing a lot of damage. It's worth to take out points from other attributes only if this makes my damage increase by other ways).

Second, i can't invest 11 points in one attribute to power only one skill, so it's better if i can find out some other Wind Prayers skills to put in this build. The useful skills are: Attacker's Insight (energy management), Enchanted Haste (IMS), Featherfoot Grace (IMS and anti-conditions), Guiding Hands (anti-block), Harrier's Grasp (cripple), Harrier's Haste (IMS and more damage against moving foes), Whirling Charge (IAS and IMS). IMHO, these are utility skills, and none of them are really needed. However, some of them could be really nice in a PvP build (we can also think about a PvP version of this build if you like

).

So, i'd like to let Wind Prayers out. We'll talk about energy management later.

*Then, some theory.

First of all, we must choose our objective: we'd like to design a PvE damage build. Theory (almost, the theory that i know ^^) says that damage in PvE comes in the forms of "nuking" and "simple pressure" (as i call it), which is simply trying to maximize the average damage. PvP pressure's aim is to let enemy monks with no energy, but this isn't the case in PvE. In HM you don't kill mobs because their healers are left without energy (mobs have got a lot of energy in HM), but because you deal so much damage that the healers can't heal enough in the same time.

*Now, the build

Since with a Dervish and a bow we can't "nuke" anything, we will go with the second one. To increase the average damage we need (1) a damage buff, (2) an IAS, and (3) spammable damage skills.

Let's suppose to choose these attributes:
Mysticism: 12+1+1
Marksmanship: 12

1.Damage buff
- Avatar of Grenth: 19 lifesteal per hit.
- Vampiric bowstring: 5 lifesteal per hit.
- Heart of Holy Flame: attacks deal holy damage (i don't know if it works also with AoG, but let's suppose it does), so the raw cold damage (AoG) is converted in armor-ignoring holy damage. With 12 points in Marksmanship, 15>50, customized, the effective damage is 21-39, average 30 (without criticals).
- Favorable Winds: +6 damage.
- Read the Wind (only if we don't use Volley): +9 damage.

Total buff (all armor-ignoring): 19+5+30+6 (+9) = 60 (69).

2.IAS
- Heart of Fury: 33% maintainable
- Shortbow or flatbow, because they have the best refire rate. Flatbow isn't accurate, so i'd suggest to use Read the Wind or Favorable Winds with this kind of bow.

3.Spammable attack skills
- Volley (only if we don't use Read the Wind): +8 damage per arrow. 5e, 2r.
- Focused Shot: +22 damage, all other attack skills are disabled for 3 seconds. 5e, 2r.

Ok, now the core of our build is:

Mysticism: 12+1+1
Marksmanship: 12

1.Eternal Aura, 2.Avatar of Grenth, 3.Heart of Fury, 4.Volley

or

1.Eternal Aura, 2.Avatar of Grenth, 3.Heart of Fury, 4.Focused Shot (, 5.Read the Wind)

Remarks:
-Heart of Holy Flame is suggested in Hard Mode, because the base physical damage drops really quickly against heavy-armored foes. Remember, also, that AoG converts your bow's physical damage in cold damage, so you can't buff this damage with Barbs and Mark of Pain.
-Favorable Winds adds up only 6 damage per arrow, and yes, in the long run the effect will be surely higher, but i don't know if it's worth a skill slot, that we can use for something more useful.
-Read the Wind is the same as Favorable Winds, although it's a bit easier to use. Maybe we can use it if we haven't anything better to throw in.

Now the utility skills. First of all, even if it's PvE, we could need some spike ability:
-Triple Shot: 3 arrows, 40...28% less damage. 10e, 10r
-Dual Shot: 2 arrows, 25% less damage. 10e, 10r
-Marauder's Shot: +30 damage but all non-attack skills are disabled for 5 seconds. 10e, 6r
-Sloth Hunter's Shot: +22 damage or +52 if not using a skill. 10e, 8r

About triple vs dual. With Dual Shot each arrow deals 75% of damage, so two arrows deals 150% of damage. 150/3 = 50, so Triple Shot and Dual Shot have the same effect when Triple Shot deals 50% of damage. Since at an allegiance rank of 0 Triple Shot deals 40% less damage, which means 60% of damage, Triple Shot is always better than Dual Shot, at any allegiance rank.

Utility skills:
-Distracting Shot (deals no damage, but disables the skill for 20 seconds), Savage Shot, Antidote Signet, Conviction (with Earth Prayers = 3 lasts 15 seconds, and recharges in 20), Faithful Intervention, Mystic Vigor, Watchful Intervention, Zealous Renewal.

*About energy management

If we want to drop Attacker's Insight (and Wind Prayers), we can use Zealous Renewal instead. This skill has a good sinergy with an IAS, because we can hit more times in those 20 seconds, and get more energy back.

The second thing is the zealous bow. Since we have an IAS, swapping to a zealous bow when we are low on energy, and maybe stop using skills (or using them less), will help us regenerating energy.

So an example can be this:

Mysticism: 12+1+1
Marksmanship: 12

1.Eternal Aura, 2.Avatar of Grenth, 3.Heart of Fury, 4.Volley, 5.Zealous Renewal, 6.Triple Shot, 7.Utility, 8.Utility

1 and 2 = damage buff
3 = IAS
4 = spam
5 = energy management
6 = spike
7 and 8 = utility

pretty well balanced IMHO..hope it works

*Weapons

Set 1: main set, use this for regular damage
-Vampiric Shortbow/Flatbow of Fortitude, 15>50/15 while ench.

Set 2: energy set, swap to this set when low on energy
-Zealous Shortbow/Flatbow of Fortitude, 15>50/15 while ench (or even En+5 if you think you could need it).

Set 3: enchanting staff, use this set only to cast enchantments.
-Insightful Staff of Enchanting, En +5 while enchanted.

Swapping to a staff to cast enchantments can be useful because you can find yourself with 0 energy, and you absolutely want to recast your enchantments (or even AoG). Swapping to this staff while give you 20 more energy, which means you can cast 2 more skills of 10 energy each (one of these skills should be Zealous Renewal), then you swap to your zealous bow, and start attacking like a crazy.

Ok, this is what i thought about this build with Marksmanship maxed out. I was thinking about the other build, with low Marksmanship and a little bow, but i had some problems choosing the skills, maybe i'll post later about that subject.

reaper with no name · Aug 25, 2009, 05:11 PM // 17:11

I don't see the benefit of HoF here. Attack speed doesn't really matter much here; what matters is the skill recharge rates. Even with it, you're not going to get in another shot before Volley recharges, so you're better off waiting the extra .25 seconds or whatever for it to recharge and then use it.

Just because Triple Shot is better than Dual Shot doesn't mean you shouldn't bring it along as well.

I don't think zealous renewal is a good idea. It only gives you energy when it ends (that is, long after you actually needed the energy). In the meantime, well, you've lost 10 energy, so you're actually worse off than if you had no energy management at all. By the time you get your energy, you'll have gone quite a while without being able to spam any skills (defeating the purpose of having energy management in the first place).

However, I'm not sure 12 wind is necessary anymore either (now that I've begun timing AI properly). Heck, I might even lower my wind prayers to 4 and see how it works. I only really need it to fuel Trip shot and D-shot, so the breakpoint at 4 for 2 attacks should be enough.

Swahnee · Aug 25, 2009, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I don't see the benefit of HoF here. Attack speed doesn't really matter much here; what matters is the skill recharge rates. Even with it, you're not going to get in another shot before Volley recharges, so you're better off waiting the extra .25 seconds or whatever for it to recharge and then use it.

Just because Triple Shot is better than Dual Shot doesn't mean you shouldn't bring it along as well.

I don't think zealous renewal is a good idea. It only gives you energy when it ends (that is, long after you actually needed the energy). In the meantime, well, you've lost 10 energy, so you're actually worse off than if you had no energy management at all. By the time you get your energy, you'll have gone quite a while without being able to spam any skills (defeating the purpose of having energy management in the first place).

However, I'm not sure 12 wind is necessary anymore either (now that I've begun timing AI properly). Heck, I might even lower my wind prayers to 4 and see how it works. I only really need it to fuel Trip shot and D-shot, so the breakpoint at 4 for 2 attacks should be enough.

Ok that's a good point..

However, i didn't say that you shouldn't use dual shot, but only that triple is better

Which means, if you have to choose one, that's triple shot..

With only 4 points in Wind i think that Attacker's Insight could be a good choice. I'm sorry, but i didn't test Zealous Renewal, it was only a suggestion..but probably you're right, the two skills that drain your energy are Triple Shot and Dual Shot, so if you can use Attacker's Insight to make them cost 1 energy each, it would be great.

However, don't forget the zealous bow for regain energy quickly..

So the build now seems like this:

Mysticism: 12+1+1
Marksmanship: 12
Wind Prayers: 3+1

1.Eternal Aura, 2.Avatar of Grenth, 3.Attacker's Insight, 4.Volley, 5.Triple Shot, 6.Dual Shot, 7.OPT, 8.OPT

Since you're already using 2 PvE Skills, there's room for another one, which could be Asuran Scan (+45..69% of base damage), Ebon Battle Standard of Honor (+8..14 damage), "I Am the Strongest" (+14...19 damage).

Then i want to point out that this build can work also with 3 points in Marksmanship and a 11-18 bow. The damage lost probably isn't that much in Hard Mode (unless we use something like Heart of Holy Flame to convert the raw damage in armor-ignoring holy damage), so we can use those attribute points for something else..

Bloody Dominator · Aug 25, 2009, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

Then i want to point out that this build can work also with 3 points in Marksmanship and a 11-18 bow. The damage lost probably isn't that much in Hard Mode (unless we use something like Heart of Holy Flame to convert the raw damage in armor-ignoring holy damage), so we can use those attribute points for something else..

Why not Aura Of Holy Might, Doesnt that also convert dmg? And it boosts ur dmg to, so yay

reaper with no name · Aug 26, 2009, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Holy damage from weapons is not armor-ignoring; only holy damage from skills is.

It will, however, bypass the extra armor of warriors and rangers against physical and elemental damage.

Swahnee · Aug 26, 2009, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloody Dominator

Why not Aura Of Holy Might, Doesnt that also convert dmg? And it boosts ur dmg to, so yay

Quote:

Enchantment Spell. All nearby foes take 40...48 holy damage. For 20 seconds, you deal 20...30% more damage with your scythe. When this Enchantment ends, all nearby foes take 40...48 holy damage

It works only with a scythe.

I checked now wiki, didn't know that weapon's holy damage doesn't bypass armor. This means that in HM there's little difference between using a max bow and a little req.3 bow, since almost all our "damage" is life stealing and armor-ignoring bonus damage from a PvE skill.

This also means that Asuran Scan is useless because, if i remember correctly, the % is calculated on the base damage. It's better "I Am the Strongest" IMHO.

I also searched for some other useful attribute instead of Marksmanship, but i didn't find anything. Maybe some utilities from Earth and Wind, but we have now a lot of attribute points to invest. (Maybe we can bring a pet, like a B/P with a dervish :P)

Ideas?