Curse

AtomicMew · Sep 05, 2009, 11:23 PM // 23:23

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Originally Posted by reaper with no name

The reason scythe warriors beat dervishes with scythes is because they have strength and the ability to spam attack skills until the cows come home (which dervishes cannot unless they take zealous vow, and in that case they still don't have the benefits of strength). Constant attack skills + strength > AoG's lifesteal

On the other hand, it's entirely feasible for dervs to maintain energy and spam attack skills with a zealous scythe and orders. Constant attack skills + AoG lifesteal + unblockability > constant attack skills + strength.

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No, no, no, you're missing the point. A party can only move as fast as it's slowest member. In other words, for an IMS to actually decrease the travel time, everyone has to have one, or else the people who have one will end up having to stop and wait for the others to catch up, nullifying any benefits of having it.

Last time I checked, heroes/hench don't need to cartography. H/H simply do not need to move as much for PvE, and like you said, dual FB! is not feasible in H/H. A permanent IMS will save nearly 10-20 minutes off of a VQ because of cartography alone + another few minutes by actual combat effects. There is no other single skill that can do that.

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There are very few places in which you will face foes with blocking enchantments. Stance-based blocking is FAR more common.

Have you ever been to EotN? Enchantments are nearly ubiquitous in EOTN. Stances are statistical outliers.

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If you're fighting without AoG, then you're suboptimal. Whether you need it or not is irrelevant. You don't even NEED an optimal build to beat everything in PvE.

No, that's incorrect. AoG is not suboptimal.

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How can you say AoG's downtime is minor? Once again, either you let it run out and play without your elite, or you have to wait for it to recharge after the mob. So, either you play without an elite (and if you tell me your build is good without your elite I'll laugh), or you're wasting time (and if you tell me a build that requires you to wait 30 sec or more between mobs is good I'll also laugh).

The downtime is incredibly minimal. Truthfully, against smaller skirmishes, you don't NEED AoG. The difference is very minimal. Against a large mob with a healer backline, you better believe that AoG will help a LOT. Added pressure will end a large fight on a non-linear scale. Thus, the time saved by using AoG is not a linear difference based on number of foes.

Even if you were to look at AoG completely linearly (which again, is completely wrong), at the very limit, the downtime is 1/4, which means worst case scenario, AoG will provide an average of 15 life AoE life steal. That's still pretty kickass. You can of course do better by smart usage. EA thus provides 100/30 + 5 = 8 DPS. I am nearly positive you can find a PvE skill that can do better.

IronSheik · Sep 06, 2009, 04:14 AM // 04:14

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Originally Posted by traversc

On the other hand, it's entirely feasible for dervs to maintain energy and spam attack skills with a zealous scythe and orders. Constant attack skills + AoG lifesteal + unblockability > constant attack skills + strength.

Okay, but then you're bring an orders just to keep up the dervs energy, and is only unblockable by enchanted, not stances, warriors win.

Last time I checked, heroes/hench don't need to cartography. H/H simply do not need to move as much for PvE, and like you said, dual FB! is not feasible in H/H. A permanent IMS will save nearly 10-20 minutes off of a VQ because of cartography alone + another few minutes by actual combat effects. There is no other single skill that can do that.

Not my arguement here.

Have you ever been to EotN? Enchantments are nearly ubiquitous in EOTN. Stances are statistical outliers.

Lols blocking

No, that's incorrect. AoG is not suboptimal.

Re read his statement, he said if you are not under AoG effects, you are crap.

The downtime is incredibly minimal. Truthfully, against smaller skirmishes, you don't NEED AoG. The difference is very minimal. Against a large mob with a healer backline, you better believe that AoG will help a LOT. Added pressure will end a large fight on a non-linear scale. Thus, the time saved by using AoG is not a linear difference based on number of foes.

For 30 seconds I'm totally kicking your ass in damage, and the other 90 I still am.

Even if you were to look at AoG completely linearly (which again, is completely wrong), at the very limit, the downtime is 1/4, which means worst case scenario, AoG will provide an average of 15 life AoE life steal. That's still pretty kickass. You can of course do better by smart usage. EA thus provides 100/30 + 5 = 8 DPS. I am nearly positive you can find a PvE skill that can do better.

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Chthon · Sep 06, 2009, 04:26 AM // 04:26

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Originally Posted by IronSheik

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IronShek, please take Ensign's advice and stop arguing with traversc.

On topic, dervs are a second-tier class, period. Both warriors and sins can out-damage them with scythes, and greatly out-damage them utilizing superior skills in other weapon lines. I you want to make a derv useful, it's going to have to be some oddball caster/support/ranged/something-other-than-melee build. Good luck finding one.

AtomicMew · Sep 06, 2009, 08:47 AM // 08:47

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Originally Posted by Chthon

IronShek, please take Ensign's advice and stop arguing with traversc.

Wow, you're totally not childish at all.

I've brought up completely valid points.
1) AoG is at least equivalent to WS in damage.
2) An IMS saves huge amounts of time compared to any other skill possible.
3) Unblockability is insanely useful a large majority of area of EoTN.

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On topic, dervs are a second-tier class, period. Both warriors and sins can out-damage them with scythes, and greatly out-damage them utilizing superior skills in other weapon lines. I you want to make a derv useful, it's going to have to be some oddball caster/support/ranged/something-other-than-melee build. Good luck finding one.

Yeah right nice try. You say something mildly relevant with no supporting evidence in hopes of appearing not like a troll. Let's face it, the only reason you posted was to post flamebait.

If you want to contribute to this thread, make an actual argument, please.

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Okay, but then you're bring an orders just to keep up the dervs energy, and is only unblockable by enchanted, not stances, warriors win.

But I wouldn't take orders "just to keep up the dervs energy." An orders is useful in its own right, even if it didn't give dervs energy. So is that "okay" an "okay, dervs CAN outdamage a scythe war?"

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For 30 seconds I'm totally kicking your ass in damage, and the other 90 I still am.

How do you figure? Wearying provides deep-wound similarly to WS. AoG does 20 dmg per hit on top of wearying. I suppose you will bring up weakness condition as a counter argument, correct?

Look at it this way:
For the sake of argument, say that WS and Wearying do exactly the same thing, except wearying self-inflicts weakness. (I understand that WS is still slightly better even without considering weakness, but they're very similar.) A hero can remove it with FF every time costing the hero 3 energy and 1 second of time every ~6-7 seconds. AoG does 20 damage per hit. In 6-7 seconds, you hit ~5 times, dealing 100 damage with AoG. All else equivalent, by removing weakness, the hero effectively adds on 20 damage per hit compared to standard WS.

Thus, for an investment of two extra skill slots (one on you, one on hero), 1 second and 3 energy every 6-7 seconds, a hero is capable of doing 20*5 = 100 AoE damage. Agreed?

That's seems worth it to me, as that's above par for any skill option available.

Calista Blackblood · Sep 06, 2009, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Ok. Stopping this right here,obvious where it's going and unless Paul Dawg asks for the thread to be unlocked it will stay closed.