Curse

reaper with no name · Aug 29, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

No, I'm pointing out that his build is pointless.

What he's doing is essentially the same as giving a necromancer a bow. Sure, you might be able to clear a lot of areas with it, but it's never going to be a "good" build by any measure because it's simply redundant. A necromancer is never going to use a bow better than a ranger, so there's no point in the necromancer even trying. By the same token, there's really no point in the build this guy is trying to use.

Furthermore, he claims in the first post that his build is the best possible one for H/Hing, a claim that is clearly false. Heck, off the top of my head I was able to make one that fulfilled his build's stated goals better than it did.

Scythe O F Glory · Aug 30, 2009, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Hero-henching is easy. This is nothing special.

(And yes, needs moar AoHM, moar asuran scan, and less avatar. 20 life stealing is bad when you can be taking 20% of their health off, inflicting bleeding, and doing huge damage all in 1 hit.)

Paul Dawg · Aug 30, 2009, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Oh, yeah, one more thing I really need to mention: regardless of what you can take on with your build, no matter what areas you can clear, it sucks. Why? Because it's pointless. It's completely redundant. Consider the following:

Warrior's Endurance
Aura of Holy Might
Pain Inverter
Distracting Blow
"Save Yourselves!"
Eremite's Attack
Mystic Sweep
Lion's Comfort

This W/D beats your build in literally every way. Anything your build can do, he can do better.

Mystic sweep on a bar with one enchantment? I know I said I'd stop responding to this thread, but your responses are getting so silly that I feel I just have to point out the silliness.

My build does two things much, much better than yours. It attacks faster (ever heard of IAS?), and it steals life. Edited to add: Oh, it does a third thing better too. It spams SY! much better. You're not going to be able to keep it up constantly because your bar doesn't have FGJ. Mine does. Thanks for playing.

Lastly, a build that clears everything in the game may be redundant by your queer definition of redundant. Call it redundant. It's also damned effective.

upier · Aug 30, 2009, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Let me put it to you guys this way, and then I'll stop responding to this thread.

I designed a build that will work for hard-mode hero-henching anywhere. That's my only goal, and it works. I did not design it to maximize damage. With 20 life-stealing per hit and a multiple-hit weapon otherwise known as a scythe, I'm focusing on maximizing hits, not maximizing damage. (Asuran scan is exactly the wrong kind of skill to put on a bar like that.) There are plenty of cookie-cutter dervish bars that cause more damage and you simply cannot hero-hench with them in HM. Showing us screen shots of how much damage MoD says your build can dish out is pointless. A build has to work in reality, not in MoD-land.

Dude, might I suggest the starter scythe?
That will increase the number of hits even more!
I mean, you do less damage and thus the foes stay up longer, so you get the chance to pound them for a much longer time!
Seems like a win-win scenario for what you are trying to achieve!

I do not understand why maximizing your damage output on a guy that is DESIGNED to do damage is bad?

IronSheik · Aug 30, 2009, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Edited to add: Oh, it does a third thing better too. It spams SY! much better. You're not going to be able to keep it up constantly because your bar doesn't have FGJ. Mine does. Thanks for playing.

Lastly, a build that clears everything in the game may be redundant by your queer definition of redundant. Call it redundant. It's also damned effective.

Not going to comment on the build you're talking about because it's poopy.

But, FGJ is useless when you can hit 3 enemies. 25s downtime unless you're using enduring harmony+An essence. So for a good 25s I'm having fun with my additional attack skill keeping up SY better.

But keep in mind, dervishes aren't meant to keep up SY! Forever, they aren't paragons or warriors.

No one said your build wasn't effective It is PvE, anything is effective, but it isn't the most effective.

Chthon · Aug 30, 2009, 07:49 PM // 19:49

1. Agreed with the criticisms that Pain Inverter + SY! is an anti-combo. Indeed, Pain Inverter should be reserved for a big-boss-hunting skill only. See "Why Reactive Hexing Sucks" in the necro forum to learn more.

2. The comparison between AoHM and AoG for damage dealing is a false one. You can put both on the same bar.

3. AoG is a good source of damage, at least as far as anything available to dervs is a good source of damage. Folks here seem to be for getting that it bypasses armor and even prot, while just about everything else available to dervs is armor-sensitive junk.

4. The fundamental problem with dervs is that every halfway decent damage skill that can bring your personal DPS up to an acceptable level -- AoG and AoHM being chief offenders -- includes a damage-type conversion that completely shuts you out of the best team build synergies. Whatever extra DPS they add to your build, is lost and then some when you consider that you can't trigger MoP/Barbs/Orders coming from your team's necro(s).

5.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

But keep in mind, dervishes aren't meant to keep up SY! Forever, they aren't paragons or warriors.

If any non-caster doesn't keep SY! up with at least a reasonable uptime, then it should be thrown out of the party and replaced with something that can. (Perhaps the only exception is a BHA ranger in situations where you really, really want caster shut down.) Party slots are too valuable to waste on damage-only melees... especially ones who don't even trigger MoP....

Xenomortis · Aug 30, 2009, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Right... I think I see what you're trying to do here.

You're wanting to get as much life steal from AoG as possible and you're sacrificing on your normal damage to achieve that. You're trying to get the highest ratio of "Life Steal / Damage" as possible. Unfortunatly, this is a poor idea.
With your setup, you're losing out on a lot more damage than what you'll be gaining back from life steal (this is particularly true with Distracting Blow, which is of limited value). This is largely because you're not actually increasing the rate at which you deal Life Steal, but are drastically reducing the rate at which you deal damage.

Life Steal for a physical is of limited value and only serves to add to the damage already being done. Think of it as icing on a nice cake - you're trying to make a cake made only of icing and it is not going to work out very well.

You have limited utility (the only utility extends to SY's protection) and should therefore be trying to maximise on your damage potential as much as possible. Not bringing AoHM is rather foolish, you're passing up a lot of damage here.

Other finer points on your build can recieve some constructive criticism too. FGJ I don't think is necessary at all - in a decent sized mob you should be hitting 2 or 3 enemies at once under an IAS, so adrenaline for SY will already be building up quickly.
Pain Inverter is truly silly. It's a crutch skill for big bosses. Lose that and Distracting Strike and take another attack skill along with AoHM. Mystic Sweep would be good now you'd have at least 2 enchantments and with decent hero setups, you should reach 3. Sabway probably won't provide a 3rd unless you fit Prot Spirit and Aegis in there.

reaper with no name · Aug 31, 2009, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Mystic sweep on a bar with one enchantment? I know I said I'd stop responding to this thread, but your responses are getting so silly that I feel I just have to point out the silliness.

My build does two things much, much better than yours. It attacks faster (ever heard of IAS?), and it steals life. Edited to add: Oh, it does a third thing better too. It spams SY! much better. You're not going to be able to keep it up constantly because your bar doesn't have FGJ. Mine does. Thanks for playing.

Lastly, a build that clears everything in the game may be redundant by your queer definition of redundant. Call it redundant. It's also damned effective.

You said it was the best possible build for H/Hing. It is not. Also, it is not "damned effective". It is usable. Usable is not "damned effective". Hell, I can put mending on my bar and still be effective. Doesn't make my build good.

Queer definition? Redundant means that there's no reason for it to exist because other things can do all it can do and more. That's exactly what your build is.

Attacking faster = more damage. That's all. Guess what? This build does far more damage than yours. Oh, and it attacks almost as fast, too. The reason Mystic Sweep and Eremite's Attack are on there is for their quick activation times. No real need for IAS when half your attacks are going faster than even IAS-fueled autoattacks (and your build only has an IAS 2/3 of the time).

Oh, sorry, I forgot FGJ. Ok, I'll put that in place of AoHM. The build now sucks, but whatever. It beats yours in every possible way and then some.

The lesson to be learned here: There are many builds that work. These builds are not necessarily good. Good builds do more than just "clear an area"; they clear an area better than other builds.

Yours? It doesn't. If you want to use it, fine. What's fun for you is more important than what's optimal. But don't come here and call it good when we can make builds that do everything it can do but better. And certainly don't call it the best possible H/H build for dervishes, because then you'll be laughed out of here.

Rodeus · Aug 31, 2009, 01:59 PM // 13:59

I'm running a slightly different build with AoG: I spec 5 in wind prayers and use attackers insight to spam 10e skills like chilling victory and lyssa's assault for energy, then end eternal aura with pious assault to start a new chain of attacks.

mysticism:11+1
scythe mastery: 12+1+1
Wind Prayers: 5

Pious Assault|Lyssa's Assault|Chilling Victory|Eternal Aura|Heart of Fury|Attacker's Insight|Avatar of Grenth|optional (res/armor boost/AoHM)

* Before aggro get your form up and use Attacker's Insight
* Heart of Fury > Eternal Aura
* Chilling Victory > Lyssa's Assault > Pious Assault > Attacker's Insight > Chilling Victory > Lyssa's Assault...

Only problem is a problem all dervs face in HM: no matter how much dmg you put out, you will always be the number one target for low AL, even with Conviction in the optional slot. 600hp isn't much when you are hit with 100+dmg each hit. AoG's Self heal is pretty important when you're a derv.

_Nihilist_ · Sep 01, 2009, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodeus

Only problem is a problem all dervs face in HM: no matter how much dmg you put out, you will always be the number one target for low AL, even with Conviction in the optional slot. 600hp isn't much when you are hit with 100+dmg each hit. AoG's Self heal is pretty important when you're a derv.

Dervs have more armor than casters, so I don't see how you are "the number one target for low AL", I think you're the number one target because you aggro'd.
That being said, since you are a frontline/melee character, if you are taking 100+ dmg a hit in HM, your Monks need to prot better. Protective Spirit means that you will never take more than 10% of your max hp when you take damage. 600hp taking 100+ dmg hits means you don't have Prot Spirit on you. Fix that, and you'll fix the taking too much damage problem.
Self-heals are for RA. In PvE when you are running with a team that you put together, someone else should be healing you when you are frontline/melee. You kill shit, your Party members keep you alive. That's how it works.

Slasher of Darkness · Sep 01, 2009, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Nihilist_

Dervs have more armor than casters, so I don't see how you are "the number one target for low AL", I think you're the number one target because you aggro'd.
That being said, since you are a frontline/melee character, if you are taking 100+ dmg a hit in HM, your Monks need to prot better. Protective Spirit means that you will never take more than 10% of your max hp when you take damage. 600hp taking 100+ dmg hits means you don't have Prot Spirit on you. Fix that, and you'll fix the taking too much damage problem.
Self-heals are for RA. In PvE when you are running with a team that you put together, someone else should be healing you when you are frontline/melee. You kill shit, your Party members keep you alive. That's how it works.

I agree with this, Prot Spirit is like..the best skill to carry on heros in PvE. And also self-heals r useless, I use Faithful Intervention on my bar only cause it's a slot filler, nothing else. The rest of my bar is devoted to blowing shit up, FAST. And it's oh so effective for me.

Rodeus · Sep 01, 2009, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Problem is not so much H/H but rather pugs with 2 HB monks with no or little prots, which is a common. Do I need to keep PS on myself then?

Slasher of Darkness · Sep 01, 2009, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodeus

Problem is not so much H/H but rather pugs with 2 HB monks with no or little prots, which is a common. Do I need to keep PS on myself then?

If they are so bad as u say, don't play with them lol, 2 HB Monks with no prots, ew? Whoever thinks prots are bad, is bad.

Xenomortis · Sep 01, 2009, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodeus

Problem is not so much H/H but rather pugs with 2 HB monks with no or little prots, which is a common. Do I need to keep PS on myself then?

Kick one of them and bring Vekk or Dunkoro.
Actually, kick both of them and bring Mhenlo as well.

Rodeus · Sep 01, 2009, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slasher of Darkness

If they are so bad as u say, don't play with them lol, 2 HB Monks with no prots, ew? Whoever thinks prots are bad, is bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihilist

You kill shit, your Party members keep you alive. That's how it works.

Thx both Nihilist and Slasher, I think I've had a wrong view of what a Dervish should be and I'll keep your posts in mind when I think of making a new dervish build.

Slasher of Darkness · Sep 01, 2009, 02:26 PM // 14:26

No, it's ok to think outside of the box, but we are talking about the most effective stuff.

reaper with no name · Sep 02, 2009, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodeus

Thx both Nihilist and Slasher, I think I've had a wrong view of what a Dervish should be and I'll keep your posts in mind when I think of making a new dervish build.

The reason it works this way is because monks can take care of melee much better than it can take care of itself, and melee can do more damage than the monks can. Therefore, the optimal situation is for each to focus on what they do best. That's why self-healing is generally considered a bad idea on melee (just like how a monk swinging a sword would be suboptimal).

Paul Dawg · Sep 03, 2009, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

But keep in mind, dervishes aren't meant to keep up SY! Forever, they aren't paragons or warriors.

Ummmm, says who? Is the game called "Guild Wars" or "The Way IronSheik Likes to Play Guild Wars"? You can make all kinds of dervish builds based on what dervishes are "meant" to do (they're all over pvxwiki), and, guess what, they're not very good for hero-henching. In fact, the reason why most people don't even try extended hero-henching with dervishes is that they don't think dervishes are suited to it.

Guys, say what you want, the build works. I've been able to hero-hench every zone I've tried in HM with it. It might not conform to your notions of what a dervish is supposed to do, but obviously that wasn't my goal. And it is absolutely untrue that anything will work in PvE. I'd like to see another dervish build that can hero-hench any zone in HM. Reaper with no name's suggestion was fail.

AtomicMew · Sep 03, 2009, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Guys, PI works FINE with SY!. The damage doesn't only come from party members, but allies, which, guess what - include minions.

I've stated before that AoG is the best dervish elite available and that WS is completely overrated. First of all, permanent unblockability alone is worth an elite slot. +20 lifesteal on top is just overpowered. WS is capped at 100 damage every ~5ish seconds. Guess about how much lifesteal AoG adds in on that time?

On top of that, WS basically is an inferior version of wearying strike. The self-inflicting weakness condition is marginal because base damage is and always will be, crap EVEN FOR SCYTHES.

As far as base damage, crits in the 100s are nice, but are rare, you are far more likely to pew pew at ~30 damage a hit, ESPECIALLY against tougher enemies in the level 30,32+.

About Paul's bar:
1) I agree with other people that AoHM is probably better than PI, but only with damage buffs (cough SoH).

2) Victorious seems pretty redundant, considering the amount of lifesteal.

3)Eternal aura isn't needed, because AoG has very little downtime, anyway, and if you REALLY need it, you can just wait a few seconds.

If I were VQing with a derv, my bar would probably look like:

Avatar of Grenth
Drunken Master (with alc)
"For great justice!"
"Save yourselves!"
Wearying Strike
Protector's Strike
Wild Blow
AoHM (if using SoH)

Xenomortis · Sep 03, 2009, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Avatar of Grenth
Drunken Master (with alc)
"For great justice!"
"Save yourselves!"
Wearying Strike
Protector's Strike
Wild Blow
AoHM (if using SoH)

Why Protector's Strike? Mystic sweep has a slightly lower activation time and 1 second longer recharge, but you should be doing more damage with it.
Wild Blow also seems unnecessary; is a garunteed crit every 8 seconds worth it when you could take a different attack (Mystic would be better here if you keep Prot Strike). You don't need the stance removal as the only threatening stances are blocking ones and you cannot be blocked.

AoHM is worth it even without Strength of Honor.