Dec 19, 2009, 11:25 PM // 23:25
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#1
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Mar 2008
Profession: Me/
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My dervish says hi.
Click for build.
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Special:PvXDecode?title=Special%3APvXDecode&wpBuil d=OgGjkyqLrRhbDYMXQXvlygykXFA&wpName=&Go=Submit
If there is a Mark of Pain nuker, AoHM can be replace with SY. Vow of Piety when I doubt the healer's ability. Wild Blow if I don't have PvE skill room or want to save up for another SY cast.
Victorious Sweep does 1 damage less at 14 compared to Mystic Sweep when heavily enchanted.
Not too many skills that make me stop.
Mysticism is weak sauce.
Zealous Vow allows me to use skills without the worry of energy.
Thoughts? (We have enough dervish suck threads. D: )
Last edited by Cuilan; Dec 19, 2009 at 11:29 PM // 23:29..
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Dec 19, 2009, 11:45 PM // 23:45
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#2
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in a quiet little town that i love.
Guild: Ancient Dragoons [AGED]
Profession: W/
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lmfao i love "dodge this" one of my favorite skills and i'm not too sure about the dervish fighter... mine is used as a runner i have a warrior i tank with usually. call me oldschool idk LOL. but neat build i might actually give it a shot.
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Dec 20, 2009, 12:06 AM // 00:06
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#3
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Apr 2005
Profession: N/A
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Zvow is a strong elite for dervish, but your build can use some work. First of all, you NEED an IAS. This is either going to be drunken master or heart of fury. HoF is probably better overall, but drunken master is much easier to use, has no downtime and also has an IMS, which is nice, if you're going to cartography. Either way, you can safely drop wind prayers to 8+1 and bump mysticism up to 10+1 or 10+2 if you are brave.
Scythe mastery should be 12+3+1. Yes, take a superior. Just do it. People that take minors are just weak and scared. PvE is so easy that you should have no trouble either way and scythe mastery is one of the few attributes where pumping up as much as possible will have a big effect.
Next, you want to ditch chilling victory and victorious sweep because they are both bad. It also has no synergy with Zvow. Instead, you want to fit in as many fast-activating attacks as you can. Mystic Sweep, Eremite's attack, protector's strike are all good choices.
Lastly, "Dodge This!" sucks. You are wasting 2 skills slots to do what amounts to pea sized DPS. On the other hand, "Save Yourselves!" doesn't suck and is what you want.
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Special:PvXConvert?title=Special%3APvXconvert&wpBu ild={{attributes+|+D|+W%0D%0A++|+Scythe+|+12+%2B+1 +%2B+3%0D%0A++|+Wind+|+8%2B1+|+Mysticism+|+10%2B2% 0D%0A}}%0D%0A{{skill+bar|Zealous+Vow|Mystic+Sweep| Eremite%27s+Attack|Protector%27s+Strike|Aura+of+Ho ly+Might|Asuran+Scan|Heart+of+Fury|%22Save+Yoursel ves!%22}}&wpName=&Go=Submit+Query
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Dec 20, 2009, 01:07 AM // 01:07
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#4
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Grotto Attendant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc
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This is a much, much, much better bar than OP's.
A few issues:
1. If you bring Mystic+Ermite's+Protectors, you don't absolutely need an IAS. It still helps, but you've already cut 1sec (mystic, ermites) to 1.25sec (protectors) off your attack times, so you have much less further gain available from an IAS than you gain from an IAS applied to base scythe speed.
2. If you do want IAS, Frenzy should also be considered (paired with a good backline).
3. The (unlisted) damage type conversion on AoHM is problematic. It takes you out of participating in any Barbs/MoP/Orders coming off your team's necromancers. While it may make your numbers bigger, it's likely to make the team's numbers smaller overall (at least if they're using a good physical-based team build).
The best substitute I've found is EBSoHonor. You've got the energy to use it, and it's nice to have a copy up at the frontline -- warriors, assassins, vanguard assassins, and minions will all appreciate it.
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Dec 20, 2009, 02:21 AM // 02:21
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#5
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Apr 2005
Profession: N/A
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Quote:
1. If you bring Mystic+Ermite's+Protectors, you don't absolutely need an IAS. It still helps, but you've already cut 1sec (mystic, ermites) to 1.25sec (protectors) off your attack times, so you have much less further gain available from an IAS than you gain from an IAS applied to base scythe speed.
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I wonder how true that is. I was under the impression that an IAS would still boost damage by the same percentage as if you just auto-attacked, even considering fast-activating attack skills; more or less. Of course, recharge might make things complicated, but I don't really trust pen and paper calculations, anyway (c.f. JS/FF/DB vs. MS/DB). I think a MOD test is in order, unless someone has already done it.
Also, good call on frenzy.
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Dec 20, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27
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#6
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jun 2009
Profession: N/A
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My problem with Dodge This! is that it's a really spam heavy skill. If you're doing something that takes several hours, you'll be hating it about an hour into it.
Also, since the scythe can deal damage to (and gain adrenaline from) multiple foes, I can't help but feel that FGJ is a wasted skill in that slot.
I'm agree /w Chthon that The Ebon Battle Standard of Honor is a far superior skill in terms of a constant damage increase. If you're super worried about enemies blocking, you'll be able to take Wild Blow this way.
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Dec 20, 2009, 02:48 AM // 02:48
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#7
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Guest
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I'm gonna stop you right there for a second.
First of all, unless you're basing a bar around adreniline gain (Which this one obviously isn't), Save Yourselves! Is NOT a skill that you want.
Why?
Because even with a scythe, unless you make an active attempt, you're not going to hit more then 1-2 foes with a scythe. On average, I hit maybe 1.1 foes whenever I use a scythe. Your job is to do DAMAGE, not to squirrel around so you can do 3x damage in twice the amount of time it'd take you to just kill the foes 1 on 1. The obvious exception to this is melee, but if you're doing your job, it'd still be dead anyways.
So here you are, trying to get 8 adreniline hitting one foe at a time. What are you going to do once you've gotten that 8 adreniline? Spam SY as fast as possible? In truth, this isn't the best of ideas. It'd be a good idea to save it for when enemies with large, AoE damage come into play. The only problem with that is that minions serve the EXACT same purpose, trigger pain inverter, death nova, dwyana's sorrow, and do damage when they're not being raped by a fire elementalist. They also trigger barbs.
Second, on AoHM - The same concept applies to MoP as it does to scythes. While yes, there's the nice occasional ball of casters/melees, but for the most part, by bringing AoHM, you can leave that ball to the minions/spear chuckers throwing at the MoP'd foe and go and kill something else. In all honesty, even if you're playing with H/H (That target the same thing that you do, reguardless of what they're targed foe is ), AoHM will increase your damage so much it will out-damage MoP. Especially if it's well-casted, it's a pain to get into the balls to start hitting crap. And as for barbs, well - 25 vs 14 damage isn't much of a comparison, especially when the 25 doesn't have a 2 second cast time and can be used against any foe, one right after another.
However, EBSoH is a far better choice then Dodge This!, unless you're playing in NM. If you're playing in NM, stuff will die too fast to merit using the ward. And a goodly bit of places in HM, too.
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Dec 20, 2009, 03:47 AM // 03:47
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#8
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Apr 2005
Profession: N/A
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killamus
So here you are, trying to get 8 adreniline hitting one foe at a time. What are you going to do once you've gotten that 8 adreniline? Spam SY as fast as possible? In truth, this isn't the best of ideas. It'd be a good idea to save it for when enemies with large, AoE damage come into play.
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Even hitting only 1 foe per hit, it is very easy to keep up SY! 100%.
Quote:
The only problem with that is that minions serve the EXACT same purpose, trigger pain inverter, death nova, dwyana's sorrow, and do damage when they're not being raped by a fire elementalist. They also trigger barbs.
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Minions do not serve the same purpose. You can theory craft all you want, but with a minion wall, your party is going to take damage no matter what you do. The choice you put out between SY! and minions is completely a false dilemma.
PI is a very situational skill. It's not very strong in general. In areas with high damage, which usually correlates to the difficulty of the area, you would want SY! anyway. In easier areas, skills like EBSoH would be stronger.
In a build where you can spam ~100-200 damage attack skills, anything dangerous dies in seconds. Given that PI can kill in slightly less time, you save a few seconds every 20 seconds in the absolute best case scenario, making it somewhat marginal.
SY! on the other hand reduces damage by a percentage ~80%, meaning it is always useful. SY! actually allows you to do more damage by taking less defense and more offense on other party members, and is almost always more useful. Given the choice between SY! and PI, there is no point in taking PI unless you also already have SY!.
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Dec 20, 2009, 04:38 AM // 04:38
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#9
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Unbanned
Join Date: Jan 2008
Guild: Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] -- IGN: Swirly
Profession: Mo/
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i'm going to have to disagree with EBSoH. it's such a limited skill. you either kill everything in 2 swings of your scythe or you have to run out of it to hit the next target. i absolutely hate it on a front liner. IMO, its only use is for fire eles that camp-cast, farmers, or barrage rangers. i actually like "i am the strongest" (if you aren't using AoHM) as long as your norn rank is high enough for 7 attacks. you can cast it before charging, in kill a thing or two, then it's ready to be recast to finish up the group. yeah, yeah i understand that ebsoh affects everyone in it and strongest only affects you, but if it's just you and one other frontliner, it's not a big loss anyway.
OP's bar isn't terrible, but it does need an IAS or other faster skills and doesn't need dodge this or FGJ at all.
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Dec 20, 2009, 07:13 AM // 07:13
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#10
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Apr 2005
Profession: N/A
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuarodger
i'm going to have to disagree with EBSoH. it's such a limited skill. you either kill everything in 2 swings of your scythe or you have to run out of it to hit the next target.
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The power of EBSoH doesn't come from simply boosting your own power, but from boosting all allies as well. With 10+ minions running around, I hope you can see how strong it becomes.
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Dec 20, 2009, 10:07 AM // 10:07
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#11
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Nov 2009
Guild: Incredible Edible Bookah [YUM]
Profession: D/W
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Protector's strike is a :nonono:, put Victorious sweep instead for a nice self-heal. I've been playing this for a few months now, and it just works niiiceeeeeee.
Don't know how to add runes to the template, Scythe mastery is at 11+1+1, Wind prayers 12, Earth prayers 6. Full Windwalker armor with as much HP as you can get, Asuran r10. Massive dmg, no energy problems, can maintain SY! almost as good as an Imbagon if you use dervishe's big advantage - multi hit.
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Dec 20, 2009, 03:16 PM // 15:16
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#12
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards
Guild: [MaSS]
Profession: W/E
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Zealous Vow is like, the ultimate excuse to run Prot Strike.
/facepalm
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Dec 20, 2009, 06:07 PM // 18:07
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#13
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Unbanned
Join Date: Jan 2008
Guild: Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] -- IGN: Swirly
Profession: Mo/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc
The power of EBSoH doesn't come from simply boosting your own power, but from boosting all allies as well. With 10+ minions running around, I hope you can see how strong it becomes.
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yes, i definitely understand that, and if you can manage to place it properly it's a good skill, but its area is still so limited. frontliners shouldn't be worried about enhancing their teams damage, that's a midliner's/hero's job.
if you have a barbs/MoP nuker, one of 2 things happen: A) stuff dies so fast that you're just wasting time by putting down the ward. B) everything runs from the AoE of MoP and you, and all of your allies, have to run out of the ward to catch it. if you've got a good ball, a good curses necro, and hit the proper target, everything should be dead after 3 swings of your scythe anyway. EBSoH doesn't change that, especially since it doesn't enhance MoP's damage. and if you're not using a curses necro, you should have AoHM on your bar.
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Dec 20, 2009, 06:52 PM // 18:52
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#14
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Guest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc
Even hitting only 1 foe per hit, it is very easy to keep up SY! 100%.
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- You're able to get 8 adrenaline in 5 seconds hitting one foe per swipe, with a scythe? Aside from using FGJ (Which was already discussed as not meriting a place in this build), I don't see how this is possible. Even on my assassin using 16 dagger mastery and Way of the Locust, I find it difficult to keep SY up 100% with R7 Kurzick. Mainly because stuff dies too fast (Even in HM) for me to get more then 2-3 hits before moving to the next foe, which severely impacts my adrenaline gain.
Also, keep in mind that attack skills with an activation time have a 3/4s aftercast too. I think that dagger attacks are the only exception to this.
Quote:
Minions do not serve the same purpose. You can theory craft all you want, but with a minion wall, your party is going to take damage no matter what you do. The choice you put out between SY! and minions is completely a false dilemma.
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You've never run a minion wall then. Or, you haven't run it properly. Yes, my team will take damage. 1-2 hits, before the minions start absorbing damage and blowing up, at which point stuff dies and more minions are promptly raised. If you want a tip: Don't put minion skills and death nova on the same hero. The difference is between not having minions and having 99% of the damage taken away from your party.
(PS: The word you're looking for is correlation, not dilemma)
Quote:
PI is a very situational skill. It's not very strong in general. In areas with high damage, which usually correlates to the difficulty of the area, you would want SY! anyway. In easier areas, skills like EBSoH would be stronger.
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I think you've mistaken me. I didn't advocate taking PI on a bar like this, unless it's going to be very useful in the area you're going (And there's no back/midline humans). I simply mentioned where SY will reduce it's effectiveness, minion walls just make stuff go boom faster.
And I'm going to just throw this out there: There's only three excuses to not run a minion master in any party
A) When there's no corpses
B) When the foe will benefit more then you (I.E. Consume Soul in Kurzick territory)
C) When in a speed-clear type situation.
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Dec 20, 2009, 07:42 PM // 19:42
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#15
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Apr 2005
Profession: N/A
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killamus
- You're able to get 8 adrenaline in 5 seconds hitting one foe per swipe, with a scythe? Aside from using FGJ (Which was already discussed as not meriting a place in this build), I don't see how this is possible. Even on my assassin using 16 dagger mastery and Way of the Locust, I find it difficult to keep SY up 100% with R7 Kurzick. Mainly because stuff dies too fast (Even in HM) for me to get more then 2-3 hits before moving to the next foe, which severely impacts my adrenaline gain.
Also, keep in mind that attack skills with an activation time have a 3/4s aftercast too. I think that dagger attacks are the only exception to this.
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6 seconds. And no, they do not have aftercast afaik. (3/4s aftercast would make them worse than normal attacks skills, so that is definitely not the case). Test it out on MoD. It's very easy to keep up SY with fast-activating attacks.
Quote:
(PS: The word you're looking for is correlation, not dilemma)
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/facepalm. The word I am looking for is indeed dilemma, as in "false dilemma." I am honestly trying to be nice here when I say, JFGI. Admit you are wrong, and admit your embarassment. Learn something new everyday, eh
Quote:
And I'm going to just throw this out there: There's only three excuses to not run a minion master in any party
A) When there's no corpses
B) When the foe will benefit more then you (I.E. Consume Soul in Kurzick territory)
C) When in a speed-clear type situation.
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The fact you think consume soul in kurzick territory is any reason whatsoever to not run a MM indicates inexperience. It's nice that you form your own ideas, but honest introspection is always needed to make sure you don't stagnate. Most people don't realize there is a lot of room to improve their game. I guess, at this point in the GWs history, it doesn't really matter. But as I don't want to go off on a tangential rant, I'll stop here.
/cheers
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Dec 20, 2009, 08:14 PM // 20:14
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#16
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Guest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc
6 seconds. And no, they do not have aftercast afaik. (3/4s aftercast would make them worse than normal attacks skills, so that is definitely not the case). Test it out on MoD. It's very easy to keep up SY with fast-activating attacks.
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There's an aftercast, although it may not be 3/4th of a second. I see this quite often when playing a ranger, if you're using a long set of bow attacks with 1 or .5s activation, you won't hit once per second. Using 3/4th second cast scythe attacks, however, I've noticed that the damage is given before the scythe attack finishes casting, which caused me to believe there was an after-cast. So yes, my mistake.
However, there is a huge difference between nailing the master of damage, who doesn't die, and foes with a health limit somewhere in the mid 600s, with heroes and henchmen attacking it at the same time. There's also the difference of little minions/AoE damage softening up other foes, thus making them live an even shorter amount of time. And moving around, trying to kill these takes even more time. To effectively reproduce this in the master of damage, do 2 hits on the master, go the long way around the master of damage to an adjacent target, 2 more hits, go the long way around again to the other adjacent, then go the long way around to the master of damage, and repeat. Suddenly, it's a lot harder to maintain, isn't it?
Quote:
/facepalm. The word I am looking for is indeed dilemma, as in "false dilemma." I am honestly trying to be nice here when I say, JFGI. Admit you are wrong, and admit your embarassment. Learn something new everyday, eh
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Last I checked, a dilemma was a perplexing or difficult decision. You made it seem like I was making a choice between the two, when this wasn't the case. I was making a comparison of the two - Thus, correlation.
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The fact you think consume soul in kurzick territory is any reason whatsoever to not run a MM indicates inexperience.
/cheers
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That was merely an example of when having minions benefits foes. Another example would be Verata's Aura, and would have been better in that situation. Consume soul was just the first thing that popped into my mind, not an absolute "DON'T RUN MINIONS IN THE KURZICK AREAS BECAUSE OF CONSUME SOUL". However, because of that, I would look at the build and ask if this player/hero could be better replaced using something else (I.E. healer, curses necro, etc).
(If you were wondering, I was doing a solo Kurzick vanq at the time, and the consume soul skill was irking me due to the giant health spikes.)
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Dec 20, 2009, 08:31 PM // 20:31
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#17
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Grotto Attendant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc
I wonder how true that is. I was under the impression that an IAS would still boost damage by the same percentage as if you just auto-attacked, even considering fast-activating attack skills; more or less.
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In a purely mathematical since, that's right. IAS is always going to multiply DPS by 1/(1 - IAS%). However, that assumes perfect execution, which becomes less and less likely the shorter attack times become.
Attack skills always add some "froth" to your attack speeds. Unless queued or activated precisely as the previous hit finishes, they're going to add a little time for the canceled auto-attack. Depending on your focus, reflexes, and ping at any given moment, your actualized attack frequency is going to vacillate a bit. I guess you could say that my point was that the effect of IAS on top of fast fixed-activation attack skills is going to be partially submerged in this froth. 33% IAS applied to Mystic/Ermites is going to shave off .25 sec and leave a .5 sec attack. You lose part of that .25 sec gain if you fail to get your next attack skill queued before your .5 sec attack finishes. (And, remember, you can't double queue skills in GW.)
I don't know about you, but I don't have the concentration, reflexes, ping (certainly not the ping), or even the desire to consistently queue my next skill under .5 sec. I'm probably faster overall with the IAS, just not getting the whole advantage from it I could be.
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Dec 20, 2009, 10:36 PM // 22:36
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#18
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Krytan Explorer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killamus
There's an aftercast, although it may not be 3/4th of a second. I see this quite often when playing a ranger, if you're using a long set of bow attacks with 1 or .5s activation, you won't hit once per second.
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Only ranged attack skills with 0.5 seconds activation time have an aftercast delay (of 1.25 seconds if I remember correctly), all other attack skills don't have an aftercast delay.
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