Curse

Slasher of Darkness · Jun 22, 2009, 08:34 AM // 08:34

hmm ye might be, I got excited first when i saw it ^^ today tried to replicate, same build, did ~300 damage, NOT max titles though.

Forgotton200 · Jun 22, 2009, 08:57 AM // 08:57

reaper with no name · Jun 22, 2009, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kayata

Ohh nooeess!! I guess you're not equipped as well

linking a huge screenshot lol
http://elvinjay.webs.com/gw089.jpg

ohhh noess dervish are doomed

anways I saw way better dmg on a dervish lol

Let's assume that's real.

Your build is [Eremite's Attack][Mystic Sweep][Protector's Strike][Asuran Scan][By Ural's Hammer][Zealous Vow][Aura of Holy Might][Mirage Cloak]

Guess what?

[Eremite's Attack][Mystic Sweep][Malicious Strike][Asuran Scan][By Ural's Hammer][Way of the Master][Aura of Holy Might][Critical Defenses]

Scythe Sin beats you. IN EVERY WAY. Same damage buffs, most of the attack skills are identical (except malicious strike > protector's strike, as it's a near guaranteed crit), sin gets about twice the crit rate (making their damage far exceed yours), and the sin even has more blocking going on.

I can't help but notice you didn't put an IAS in there. Weird, but ok, just for fun let's assume you had used HoF instead of Mirage Cloak (it helps your case more):

[Eremite's Attack][Mystic Sweep][Protector's Strike][Asuran Scan][By Ural's Hammer][Zealous Vow][Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury]

You can only have 3 PvE skills on your bar at once, so if the scythe sin wants an IAS, his only option is critical agility, which means dropping Ural's Hammer.

[Eremite's Attack][Mystic Sweep][Malicious Strike][Asuran Scan][Way of the Master][Aura of Holy Might][Critical Agility][Critical Eye]

At first glance, you might think you have the advantage. I mean, you've got Ural's Hammer, and the sin doesn't. One problem, though. If you have 16 scythe mastery, your crit rate is around 22%. The scythe sin? About 89% (if we assume you have 16 scythe mastery, we must assume the sin has 16 critical strikes, to be fair).

A critical hit is 41% more damage than a max hit. So, the scythe sin is just over 4 times as likely to get that extra 41% than you are. In fact, he'll be getting it almost all of the time. You won't even be getting it 1/4 of the time. Ural's Hammer gets you +25% damage. Let's do a little math.

Ok, this is gonna get a bit messy and hard to follow unless you know the damage calculations from the wiki, but here we go:

Effective Damage Rating
------------------------

Dervish = 5x12 + 2(16-12) + 32 = 60 + 8 + 32 = 100

Enemy Armor Rating (60 AL) = 2^(100-60)/40 = 2

Scythe Sin = 5x12 + 32 = 92

Enemy Armor Rating (60 AL) = 2^(92-60)/40 = 1.741101127

Damage against 60 AL target (Dervish)
-------------------------------------

Damage (non-crit) = 25 * 2 * .78 * 1.75 * 1.25 = 85.3125

Damage (crit) = 41 * 1.41 * 2 * .22 * 1.75 * 1.25 = 55.642125

Total = 85.3125 + 55.642125 = 140.954625

Damage against 60 AL target (Scythe Sin)
----------------------------------------

Damage (non-crit) = 25 * 1.741101127 * .11 * 1.75 * 1.25 = 10.473811467109375

Damage (crit) = 41 * 1.741101127 * .89 * 1.75 * 1.25 = 138.977956521753125

Total = 149.4517679888625

Uh oh...Looks like the scythe sin has beaten you. Not by very much, I admit, but he's done it all the same. Too bad massive scythe damage is the only thing that dervish build does. Meanwhile, the scythe sin has more armor (thanks to critical agility), a maintainable IAS (again, critical agility), and doesn't have to worry about the duration of By Ural's Hammer! (if there are enough party members below 50% health to make Ural's Hammer last until it's recharge, you've got problems).

So, his offensive advantages are even greater than the numbers make it seem, because the dervish can't maintain his buffs. The scythe sin can, however. He successfully makes your build completely redundant.

Don't bother mentioning Vow of Strength, by the way. You need your mysticism as high as possible in order to maximize your Heart of Fury time. You give that up, you're losing 50% of your DPS (33% IAS increases number of hits per time period by 50%). Not to mention the scythe sin can do the same thing. And then there's little problem of almost never getting to use the bonus damage...

Oh, and one more thing of note:

[Eremite's Attack][Power Attack][Protector's Strike][Asuran Scan][By Ural's Hammer][Warrior's Endurance][Aura of Holy Might][Flail]

Scythe Warrior beats your build too with his +16% armor penetration on attack skills (which he can spam all day) and maintainable IAS, not to mention his higher armor.

SuperCoha · Jun 22, 2009, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

/cut

You can talk all day long of how a scythe sin/warrior beats a dervish in every possible way, but your profession seems to be D/W. How come, I'm just curious?

Kayata · Jun 22, 2009, 08:10 PM // 20:10

LMAO >reaper with no name < on that post.

Yo first off I was only replying to FengShuiDove post about His build.

2nd you don't need HoF since the cast time and recharge time of atk skills I'm using are enough.(energy is not a problem either)

3rd You Need To Get Laid.

Call it fake whatever you wanted to call it. I could careless

since this argument is pointless, have fun reading and replying because I wont be reading them. lol

HF

reaper with no name · Jun 22, 2009, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Scythe Warriors and Scythe Sins don't beat primary dervishes in every way. They beat them in direct offensive and defensive power, but that isn't everything.

My favorite build, for example, involves WS and SY!. Scythe sin can't spam SY!, scythe warrior can't spam DW. They may outdamage and outtank me, but I do have something they don't.

The point I was making is that the build that guy used to get those numbers (as high as they were) was actually a bad build because it played to the dervish's weaknesses (lack of synergy with a scythe) instead of it's strengths (scythe mastery without wasting secondary profession). If there's a build out there that can do everything your build can do and more, then your build isn't "good", no matter how ridiculous it's numbers are. To be a "good" build, it has to have something the competition doesn't, in order to justify it's usage over some other build. The build that guy was using didn't have anything to offer that a scythe sin couldn't beat.

In other words, there's no point in trying to go pure offense as a dervish, because you'll never beat a scythe sin or scythe warrior at it. A "good" dervish build has to be able to do something that a scythe sin or scythe warrior can't do (a good example is AoM's condition immunity).

SuperCoha · Jun 23, 2009, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Scythe Warriors and Scythe Sins don't beat primary dervishes in every way. They beat them in direct offensive and defensive power, but that isn't everything.

My favorite build, for example, involves WS and SY!. Scythe sin can't spam SY!, scythe warrior can't spam DW. They may outdamage and outtank me, but I do have something they don't.

The point I was making is that the build that guy used to get those numbers (as high as they were) was actually a bad build because it played to the dervish's weaknesses (lack of synergy with a scythe) instead of it's strengths (scythe mastery without wasting secondary profession). If there's a build out there that can do everything your build can do and more, then your build isn't "good", no matter how ridiculous it's numbers are. To be a "good" build, it has to have something the competition doesn't, in order to justify it's usage over some other build. The build that guy was using didn't have anything to offer that a scythe sin couldn't beat.

In other words, there's no point in trying to go pure offense as a dervish, because you'll never beat a scythe sin or scythe warrior at it. A "good" dervish build has to be able to do something that a scythe sin or scythe warrior can't do (a good example is AoM's condition immunity).

And I agree that a dervish with SY! and WS is probably the best option out there, when playing "for real", or whatever you want to call it..

But you sound like the game is some serious business, where you have to compete with other players to be "better" or justify your build for some reason.. Where's the fun in that? It's a game, you can do whatever you want, and however you want it, and noone can tell you it's not good, or that you should change it. If you came up with a build that semi-works, and you're satisfied because it's your idea, it's original, and it's new, go for it, play it. I find new builds, that lack the strenghts you mentioned, fun to play, and that's what keeps the game interesting. I sometimes wish there was no pvx, and no guru, and people would come up with builds of their own, and actually try to figure out how something works and HAVE FUN. Nowadays all you have to do is make a new character, buy a couple of tomes and there you go - you have the "best" <insert profession> build. I don't want to play a build just because it's optimal, or the best build available, if I don't like it, or if it requires 1-2-3-repeat. Besides, you can pretty much wtfpwn everything with H/H running whatever build you come up with.

IMO.

Lourens · Jun 23, 2009, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Sins look stupid with Scythes imo =) And besides if your lucky you crit most of the time with 16 scythe

+ You look a lot better =D

Megas XLR · Jun 23, 2009, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperCoha

Besides, you can pretty much wtfpwn everything with H/H running whatever build you come up with.

IMO.

Truth in this game.

boarderx · Jun 25, 2009, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperCoha

And I agree that a dervish with SY! and WS is probably the best option out there, when playing "for real", or whatever you want to call it..

But you sound like the game is some serious business, where you have to compete with other players to be "better" or justify your build for some reason.. Where's the fun in that? It's a game, you can do whatever you want, and however you want it, and noone can tell you it's not good, or that you should change it. If you came up with a build that semi-works, and you're satisfied because it's your idea, it's original, and it's new, go for it, play it. I find new builds, that lack the strenghts you mentioned, fun to play, and that's what keeps the game interesting. I sometimes wish there was no pvx, and no guru, and people would come up with builds of their own, and actually try to figure out how something works and HAVE FUN. Nowadays all you have to do is make a new character, buy a couple of tomes and there you go - you have the "best" <insert profession> build. I don't want to play a build just because it's optimal, or the best build available, if I don't like it, or if it requires 1-2-3-repeat. Besides, you can pretty much wtfpwn everything with H/H running whatever build you come up with.

IMO.

agreed, look around for tips or build ideas and play a build tht fits your play style, thats what is nice about GW, you can develop a play style and have fun with it.

With maxed titles and buffs and bla bla bla the numbers are really close just just pick the one you like and play some GW with a smile on your face.

reaper with no name · Jun 26, 2009, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperCoha

And I agree that a dervish with SY! and WS is probably the best option out there, when playing "for real", or whatever you want to call it..

But you sound like the game is some serious business, where you have to compete with other players to be "better" or justify your build for some reason.. Where's the fun in that? It's a game, you can do whatever you want, and however you want it, and noone can tell you it's not good, or that you should change it. If you came up with a build that semi-works, and you're satisfied because it's your idea, it's original, and it's new, go for it, play it. I find new builds, that lack the strenghts you mentioned, fun to play, and that's what keeps the game interesting. I sometimes wish there was no pvx, and no guru, and people would come up with builds of their own, and actually try to figure out how something works and HAVE FUN. Nowadays all you have to do is make a new character, buy a couple of tomes and there you go - you have the "best" <insert profession> build. I don't want to play a build just because it's optimal, or the best build available, if I don't like it, or if it requires 1-2-3-repeat. Besides, you can pretty much wtfpwn everything with H/H running whatever build you come up with.

IMO.

You are completely and totally correct. By far, THE MOST important consideration when making a build is that you find it fun. If it's not fun for you, then there's really not much point, is there?

But a fun build that works is not necessarily the same as a good build (at least in the way that I personally define it). I'm sorry if I sometimes come across as a build nazi, because I'm really not. I'm just saying that going pure damage or pure defense is suboptimal for a dervish. If someone wants to do so however, and it works for them, then that's great for them. I'd rather someone have fun with a suboptimal build than be bored with an optimal one. It's just that when we discuss stuff here, we usually seem to do so under the assumption that optimal builds are the desired result.

I should probably add a message underneath all my build-related posts that says "note: fun is more important than optimization. If you find a suboptimal build is more fun for you, and it works, then by all means use it".

Improvavel · Jun 26, 2009, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperCoha

You can talk all day long of how a scythe sin/warrior beats a dervish in every possible way, but your profession seems to be D/W. How come, I'm just curious?

Although I might be interpreting your words in a wrong way, since when does recognizing that a profession has weaknesses or that their roles are better performed by other professions, equals to exclude someone of playing that profession?

It seems that whenever someone points some profession weakness, players of that profession needs to rally and say that their favorite profession is good and to everyone else shut up (I know you aren't saying this, just generalization)?

I for example play all professions and I wish all of them can have their roles and to be competitive.

I like to play my dervish, even though isn't one of my main characters. That doesn't prevent me to realize assassins and warrior play better scythe wielders outside the areas avatar of dwayna and melandru are strong.

The other roles a dervish can perform, are largely meaningless and their usefulness is quite debatable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I should probably add a message underneath all my build-related posts that says "note: fun is more important than optimization. If you find a suboptimal build is more fun for you, and it works, then by all means use it".

That is true when you are playing alone or with friends that don't mind.

But if you are, lets say, Pugging, people will want the most efficient builds possible.

In that case someone having fun at the expenses of the rest of the team by bringing a bad build isn't cool.

That is why people in these forums try to go for the best possible builds.

A dervish player is quite capable of doing most stuff with its heroes and henchies as most other professions and several builds that aren't quite optimized.

Still an assassin or a warrior using a scythe could achieve the same or better results.

So when you pug or play with your friends, in fact you are handicapping them by bringing a dervish using a scythe instead of a warrior or an assassin.

Most of the time it doesn't matter, but it isn't exactly fair for dervish players to not be able to excel in something without someone else do it better.

That is the dervish problem - someone else can perform the same exact role in a better way.

Sirius-NZ · Jun 26, 2009, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Theoretically.

In practice, you have to find these hypothetical skilled players first. It doesn't matter if you're running the most overpowered build in the game if you keep getting the rest of your party killed because you don't know how to do aggro control properly.

So my friends seem fine with it when I want to take a Dervish.

Verene · Jun 26, 2009, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Meh, I'm not a very big fan of WS. It's handy in PvP (though the only PvP I do is the occasional RA), but for PvE I prefer Reaper's Sweep. Spamming DW every three seconds is pretty pointless unless something is removing it that quickly, which isn't likely to happen. I'd rather have the damage bonus.

And as far as avatars go, I've experimented with all of them and I find Lyssa the only one worth using for the most part, and that it's definitely the best of them. Extra energy plus a rather large damage bonus if you hit them while they're using a skill? Hell yes, I'll take that, thanks.

reaper with no name · Jun 29, 2009, 12:31 PM // 12:31

It never ceases to amaze me how balanced WS and RS are against one another.

Sure, it is true that in general you won't need the ability to DW every 3 seconds, and RS has the nice +40 damage, which makes it a better spike skill, but it's also true that in the 8 seconds it takes RS to recharge, WS's bleeding will deal 48 damage. And it will continue to deal damage for 20 sec, which means up to 120 damage (which will be rare, admittedly, but it doesn't have to last anywhere near that long to do far more damage than RS). Of course, you could use RS again, but then you're spending twice as much energy. So, WS has more DPE (damage per energy) than RS.

But then, one might ask, what about enemies that don't survive for 8 seconds? Wouldn't RS be more effective in that case? Perhaps, but that's the very same situation in which WS's low recharge time and more consistent DW is important. If an enemy is going to be killed in less than 8 seconds, and RS only gets the DW when they're at less than half health, then there's a very good chance that they'll die before you can get off the DW from RS (defeating the major purpose of the skill).

But then again, WS only has more DPE if the target can bleed.

So on the one hand, RS is a better spike skill and is better against targets that don't bleed. But on the other hand, WS gives you a lot more bang for your buck.

Tender Care · Jul 29, 2009, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Wanna a pve really powerful build??

Onslaught (Elite)
"go for the eye"
"Find their weakness"
Aura of holy might
"I am the strongest" / asuran scan / "By Hural's hammer"
Victoriuos sweep
Rending sweep (if using asuran scan) / Zealous sweep
Chilling victory

As u can notice: no heal, just a lot of dmg......I used to use it playing with 3 hero subway and it was great.

-Lotus- · Jul 31, 2009, 03:09 AM // 03:09

D/W
14 scythe
13 myst

Wounding strike
Victorious Sweep
Option (usually club of a thousand bears)
SY!
For great justice!
Aura of Holy Might
Heart of Fury
Res sig

that WS/vic sweep combo takes a huge chunk out of almost anything, certainly enough that any teammates opener, or a few more swings will drop it. There are builds that do more damage, but not in 2 skill slots.

you can keep SY up most of the time with good positioning. youre no paragon, but if no one else has it its awesome.

the enchantments should be standard on any derv bar. keeps your auto attacks nice and deadly.

and if you keep club of a thousand bears you have a cheap, quick knockdown (most of the time) plus you can get a big damage boost pretty often. its sweet

Drizzitdude · Jul 31, 2009, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Dervsishes are great all round. Also i am glad yo see there are still people going around yelling challenges on the threads of a class they suck with. The fact is one of the dervishes greatest advantages on other classes is the one thing they cant copy and thats Mysticism. Mysticism has great health management skills to allow you to keep yourself alive ( mystic regen) as well as one of the best IAS in the game (heart of fury). sure all the other classes can use SOME of the dervishes skills better than a dervish but a dervish has good energy as well as higher than normal armor.

Personally I go with melee with my dervish (D/W because wild blow has no negative effect on a scythe derv) I have 4 enchants on my charecter at all times ( Faithful intervention , Heart of fury, mystic vigor, mystic regeneration) giving him massive health regen and an IAS with the hardest hitting weapon in the game. Skills like wounding strike and wild blow further the melee pwnage. I also have victorious sweep which adds a nice damage boost on top of a heal and of course a rez sig. (RA build)

If any of you are wondering yes I did try reap impurities instead of Victorious sweep but it just takes too much energy and has too much recharge time in comparison.

I have 33 energy total.

reaper with no name · Aug 01, 2009, 04:16 AM // 04:16

A W/D takes your damage, energy, and survivability and raises you Strength, Warrior's Endurance, and Lion's Comfort.

Hyozanryu Sanada · Mar 12, 2010, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotton200

That image is not photoshopped. I can run a similar build to him with a RANGER and deal 800~ at highest.