Curse

FireWhale · May 03, 2010, 09:19 AM // 09:19

By "significant amount of time", I mean through nightfall, factions, and eotn. Various hm dungeons and vq's as well. I'm mainly going to be writing without editing my words, since I want to get everything down. so of course, it will be biased.

I tried to make a derv who performed in the typical derv fashion. That is, a scythe user who used various enchants offensively and defensively.

In that respect, I tried to use a 12+1+1 scythe, 8+1 mysticism, 10+1 wind or earth prayers unless it was a heavy mysticism build or something. I also changed my elite at various points to see how the underused skills worked in play. Here's a short list:

1. Conditions are pretty fun to spam. Cripple especially. There are a bajillion ways to spread cripple with a derv, but honestly, pretty much all of them have relatively unspectacular effects otherwise. I suppose that's a fair balance for the condition, as it fit in with RoJ smiter I sometimes used.

Obviously, this thread is going to be visited by the "Who cares about anything else if the enemy is dead" people. Yeah, I usually run those types of team setups. But when I play my derv and can easily apply a cripple (cheaply too), snaring for more powerful AOE actually becomes kind of fun.

2. Onslaught is a mediocre elite. However! I really like the 1/4 activation time. Seriously, compared to Heart of Fury's 3/4 activation time, Onslaught was a godsend. Extrapolating that idea, I think an easy fix to the conundrum of derv enchantment dps (besides the hm/AL-dependent damage thing eles also suffer from) would be to reduce activation times to 1/4. Course, that's a poorly thought out idea but I'm sure someone could come in and tell me why it's a bad idea.

3. The 2 armor stances in wind and earth are great, but wind's Vow of Piety seems slightly underpowered compared to earth. I like Vow of Piety's stance renewal effect, but it's a lot less conducive to typical play than conviction's mechanics. One basically has to juggle enchantments as one is running from mob to mob. This is pretty similar to a MM, so I guess this type of mid-mob maintenance isn't terrible. I just wanted to say that if I had equal points in earth and wind, I would always choose conviction over vow of piety.

4. Bar compression is kind of poor. I suppose that's due to the fact that most of my bars have some key skills (+24 AL stance, faithful intervention, Aura of Holy Might), some pve skills (AoHM, 2 others), an elite, and then you have to fit ias and scythe attacks in...it's a pretty big mess. I think I feel obligated to take the defensive skills because they are just so good (aka the stance and faithful intervention).

If you're running an avatar, it's going to cost you 2 skill slots (even ignoring the fact that if you have to cast mid battle, that's going to take ~4 secs to cast the avatar and then eternal aura). If there was a faster activation time, I might be more open to using avatars.

5. Finally, compared to my sin, ranger, and war who can all also run scythe builds...ALL of them do it better. Even with 12+1+3 scythe, the fact that all 3 have maintainable ias and that their primary attributes can be offensive based, it's really no contest.

Now, I don't like the idea of nerfing scythes for other professions, but given that all 3 pretty much require 12 in their primary to be effective, maybe buff mysticism's skills to a more equal footing or work in wind and earth prayers to enhance scything.

edit: oh yeah. Of course many people have already expressed these views. Since I know that the devs read this (supposedly) and that I'm a proud dervish user, my opinion might actually make a difference when dervishes come up for their skill balancing.

vamp08 · May 03, 2010, 12:20 PM // 12:20

In sum: Dervishes need an overhaul. /agree

Probably the only thing holding a Dervish rebalance back is the Assassin class, aka, buff dervish and the selfish ecto sin farmers will find some way to constrew the work of art into an all-out ecto horde.

Quick-fix for the rebalance? Move all the "sweet" skiils to mysticisim. And for god's sake change mysticisim aswell...energy on enchant-end is awful.

Cuilan · May 03, 2010, 12:29 PM // 12:29

You could do that or give the dervish skills some actual synergy to not be another attack spammer.

vamp08 · May 03, 2010, 12:41 PM // 12:41

1. Remove the deactivation time for Avatars.

2. Change mysticism to somethng like: For every X ranks in mysticism you gain +1 energy regen. | Or add an X energy gain on any successfull skill and spell activation.

Its funny, we are now 5 years into this game and we are STILL discussing and recieving major skill rebalances...shouldn't this shit have been ironed out...oh I dunno....3 years ago(4 for core-classes)?

Bloody Dominator · May 03, 2010, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by vamp08

Its funny, we are now 5 years into this game and we are STILL discussing and recieving major skill rebalances...shouldn't this shit have been ironed out...oh I dunno....3 years ago(4 for core-classes)?

Yes, it should have
and that is why this:

Quote:

Since I know that the devs read this, my opinion might actually make a difference when dervishes come up for their skill balancing.

isnt true

Benderama · May 03, 2010, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Just make some Derv skills more interesting imo. There are loads of skills in air magic/earth magic that all act so similarley. My derv is only 20,000 points off max SS and it's really quite boring playing as a derv sometimes. but maybe i need to try to make "interesting" builds? :O
Also is it just me or do too many Derv skill rely on something like damage type, enchantments, foes e.t.c?

Whirl E Vic · May 03, 2010, 01:18 PM // 13:18

I've been running an onslaught bar recently and love it. Fits more with the "theme" of the class in my mind - running (whirling?) around like a madman all over the field, killing everything in sight. I run vow of piety and juggle onslaught and AoHM, since you pretty much want those up all the time anyways.

I can't really agree that the derv is underpowered, just that it needs a bit more thought to play and the skills need to be applied more "tactically". For instance, I did morostav trail vanq to max kurz title. Running the onslaught bar with banishing strike totally destroys this area. Ranger wardens pop up two spirits under their feet, rit wardens summon spirits and the kirin have vamp horrors. With BUH! and banishing strike thats 112 AoE dmg per spirit hit. Throw in splinter and the little mobs of 3 or 4 wardens die before the heroes have even finished their first spell.

As said before, other classes may outperform with a scythe. My opinion is, who cares, that doesn't necessarily make our favorite hooded death machine underpowered, just that other classes need a bit of a dial back. Honestly, the only thing I'd like to do is be able to find groups for the non-h/h able elite missions, but, let's face it, those areas are all gimmicky anyways.

Oh, and nobody said that it has to be your enchants ending on you to fuel mysticism. A couple of spammable, short enchants on a hero (Rev. of Dmg, RoF) go a long way.

/end random thought output

@ Below

Yeah, but I've never heard anyone utter the phrase "Whirling Warrior". I was commenting more on the RPG-ish aspect of the class.

vamp08 · May 03, 2010, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whirl E Vic

Fits more with the "theme" of the class in my mind - running (whirling?) around like a madman all over the field, killing everything in sight.

says Hi

NerfHerder · May 03, 2010, 07:44 PM // 19:44

I think the Devs do read these threads. Maybe not all of them, but enough to know we are concerned about Dervishes and scythes. It was mentioned in the last skill preview.

So I think repetion is key. Ive suggested this before and ill keep suggesting it until things are changed along these lines. :P

Make Aura of Holy Might tied to Mysticism. Critical Agility and Theres Nothing to Fear are good examples of how it would work. This simple fix could level the playing field for Scythe use by only changing Dervish skills. The Scythe Sins and Wars couldnt complain about that.

Add some better IAS.

I like the idea of avatars being buffed and/or maintainable without PvE skills.

Avatar of Balthazar shoud have increased IAS instead of IMS. Take out the holy damage and give us something like 10% Armor Penetrating. I think that would relate it closer to something that Balthazar would do.

The most debatable is giving Dervishes better energy management. I think changing Mysticism to give them double energy gain when a dervish enchantment ends on you would go along way and make it hard to exploit, while leaving the attribute discription fairly basic.

Bloody Dominator · May 03, 2010, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

The Scythe Sins and Wars couldnt complain about that.

Ofc they can and they will, havent u read these forums, all i see is QQ

vamp08 · May 03, 2010, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

I think the Devs do read these threads. Maybe not all of them, but enough to know we are concerned about Dervishes and scythes. It was mentioned in the last skill preview.

So I think repetion is key. Ive suggested this before and ill keep suggesting it until things are changed along these lines. :P

Make Aura of Holy Might tied to Mysticism. Critical Agility and Theres Nothing to Fear are good examples of how it would work. This simple fix could level the playing field for Scythe use by only changing Dervish skills. The Scythe Sins and Wars couldnt complain about that.

Add some better IAS.

I like the idea of avatars being buffed and/or maintainable without PvE skills.

Avatar of Balthazar shoud have increased IAS instead of IMS. Take out the holy damage and give us something like 10% Armor Penetrating. I think that would relate it closer to something that Balthazar would do.

The most debatable is giving Dervishes better energy management. I think changing Mysticism to give them double energy gain when a dervish enchantment ends on you would go along way and make it hard to exploit, while leaving the attribute discription fairly basic.

With all-do respect, I think dervishes (along with Mesmers) deserve some 'exploit' time...sins have had it for 4 years. That is even saying there would be an exploye for dervishes...which I doubt there would be, the TK is pretty good with that.

NerfHerder · May 04, 2010, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloody Dominator

Ofc they can and they will, havent u read these forums, all i see is QQ

Yeah your right, just trying to be fair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vamp08

With all-do respect, I think dervishes (along with Mesmers) deserve some 'exploit' time...sins have had it for 4 years. That is even saying there would be an exploye for dervishes...which I doubt there would be, the TK is pretty good with that.

No disrespect taken, I too wouldnt mind a little OP/exploitation for the Dervishes either. Like the comment before im just trying to be fair, cuz anything that would make a Dervish best with a scythe, would make a bunch of wars and sins cry "call the wahmbulance I need to go to the erruh"

I love my Warrior and Assassin too, but for completely different reasons.
I think the War and Sin are fine where they are. Okay Critical Agility is a little rediculous, max IAS +20-25AR and easily maintainable? /doubletake waaa? It takes a dervish two skills to do that, isnt maintainable, and cost way more. If AoHM were changed to do that for a Dervish you would never hear the end of it. Actually id love to see the QQ posts about that. Its amazing what changing just one skill could do, aint it?

My main point is that Warriors have hammers they can use now, so they dont have to be uber with a scythe. And Assassins well, they do just fine with daggers. They can both do AoE damage well w/o a scythe. I dont mind if they can use others weapons almost/or as well as thier profession specific weapons. But all classes should be best with thier own weapons.

Paranoid* · May 10, 2010, 07:16 PM // 19:16

The devs need to get off their asses and buff the derv. I mean they are totally useless in PvP. They also have too little energy.

Myotheraccount · May 10, 2010, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Make Mysticism give +damage per enchant! <3

Kopa The Demon King · May 11, 2010, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by vamp08

1. Remove the deactivation time for Avatars.

2. Change mysticism to somethng like: For every X ranks in mysticism you gain +1 energy regen. | Or add an X energy gain on any successfull skill and spell activation.

Its funny, we are now 5 years into this game and we are STILL discussing and recieving major skill rebalances...shouldn't this shit have been ironed out...oh I dunno....3 years ago(4 for core-classes)?

You cant just expect to Iron stuff out, When you have set skills, and a large world, with so many players looking for ways to fill time and make cash, they explore different builds movements, armor, class, weapon combos, and they WILL...not might, they WILL find something new to take advantage of and use to their advantage. They will NEVER have a balanced skill set, its logically impossible with even HALF the number of skills. You will ALWAYS have the possibility for something to be abused.

Dervs do need an overhaul, and if its just a simple scythe is a dual req weapon bullshit then im going to end up rather disapointed. Alot of dervish nerfs AFTER the major one after nightfall release were due to OTHERCLASSES abuseing the skills, skill energy increaced, skills got nerfed, and recharge times increaced, I mean hell EBON DUST AURA, now only used for melee because Rangers and paragons abused it. I understand not a BIG loss, but you think about this, why are other classes Boneing the dervish, and all they do is nerf the skills, rather than buff the class its self. Mysticism needs a major revamp, and Mystic regeneration needs to be a mysticism skill.

Recharge on the god avatars are obscene to the point that theyre pointless in PvP...And yeah the bitchy kids saying its not fair, when you can easily tear through a couple of the avatars that have been nerfed to hell. I think THE ONLY worthwile elite skill in the dervish arsenol in PvP is Wounding strike...its sad realy.

Crippie its Tom · May 11, 2010, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kopa The Demon King

Recharge on the god avatars are obscene to the point that theyre pointless in PvP...And yeah the bitchy kids saying its not fair, when you can easily tear through a couple of the avatars that have been nerfed to hell. I think THE ONLY worthwile elite skill in the dervish arsenol in PvP is Wounding strike...its sad realy.

In previous metas x2 Avatar of Balth. frontlines for spikes were popular.

Oddly enough it was the shadowstep nerf that killed em off.

Midnight Sands · May 11, 2010, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crippie its Tom

In previous metas x2 Avatar of Balth. frontlines for spikes were popular.

Oddly enough it was the shadowstep nerf that killed em off.

Tbh, that was over a year ago and if it was just the ss that got nerfed it wouldnt have mattered that much. Its more the fact that they nerfed eremites/mystics+grenths aura.

FengShuiDove · May 11, 2010, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Looking at defensive skills isn't going to solve anything. Most effective physical bars don't have much, if any, self-heal or protection. Your Monks are there to Monk, so let them.

You do bring up some of the most critical problems with the Dervish. I sum them up as:

1. Damage Dealt: Because of Critical Strikes and Strength, the Assassin and Warrior respectively totally outclass the Dervish on actual damage output. The Ranger does not. I'll get to that in a minute. If we want Dervishes to be playable, there HAS to be some way to buff damage WITHOUT adding skills to the bar. Mysticism is an obvious target for this, as it's the primary attributes of Sins and Wars that boost their damage to functional levels. Mysticism, quite frankly, does nothing. Change that.

2. Sustainability of Damage Output: Here is where Rangers destroy all other Scythe-wielding professions, but Assassins and Warriors still have an edge over the poor ole' Derv. Rangers have Expertise, obviously, and Assassins have Crit Strikes, obviously. Warriors can slap Warrior's Endurance on their bar and gain instant sustainability of their damage output. Here's where your skill activation times, recharge times, and bar compression all come into play; if I'm having to recast a load of enchantments to be halfway effective in battle, there's a good chance I'll either get interrupted or stripped, or the fight will be over by the time I'm prepped.

The solution:

A. Give Dervishes a non-skill damage boost: If they ignore the sustainability issue, then I think they'd be okay to buff the damage beyond the Warrior and Assassin versions. Giving them the highest damage output puts them on even footing with Rangers in a different way.

B. Giving them sustainability: Recharge times are bad. Energy management is bad. IAS options are far worse than the other professions. Fix all of those problems. Several skills exist that could be modified to manage energy. Wind Prayers is by and large a trash attribute. Mysticism is garbage.

If you fix either of these issues, Dervs will be on par with Rangers, who have sustainability but not lolsy damage output. If you fix both, they can become interchangeable with Assassins and Warriors, who I think it's pretty unanimously known do Scythe best.

Paranoid* · May 12, 2010, 02:08 PM // 14:08

on the wiki pages of every skill it says how the damage progresses with each rank of scythe mastery. It ends at 21 but how do I get there? I've managed to get 12 + 1 + 3 which is 16, but how do I go further? I haven't seen any skills which boost SM. For PvP I mean.

**Marty Silverblade** · May 13, 2010, 10:16 AM // 10:16

You won't get past 16 in PvP. You probably won't even want 16 because it's at the cost of 75 health (superior rune). Anyway, those values are found by using cons and other bonuses only available in PvE. Stuff like shrine bonuses (+1), golden eggs (+1), grail of might (+1), candy corn (+1), lunar blessing (+1). That's 21 all up.