Curse

Granamyr · Nov 07, 2010, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

All Reformed did was compare strength versus scythe mastery, which is what this is all about

Well as the OP, while that may be true for you and Reformed, that's not what this is all about. What I want to know is what primary profession can get the highest DPS using a scythe. I want to know this because I believe the Dervish to be the worst PvE class due to other classes being able to do what they were meant to do, better.

Nerfherder's rundown answers that question rather well although it would be nice to have some numbers to back it up. I would think W/D doesn't share 2nd place if both the W/D and ZV Dervish are built solely for dps and wins outright if you consider other intangibles.

R/D is because I can't think of any other way to get a primary Ranger's DPS very high.

Rt/D with Spirit's Strength is impractical but I think theoretically doable. I think it would rank high if fighting time is limited to 1 minute.

Reformed · Nov 07, 2010, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

What I want to know is what primary profession can get the highest DPS using a scythe. I want to know this because I believe the Dervish to be the worst PvE class due to other classes being able to do what they were meant to do, better.

All I set out to do beyond that was prove, all other things being equal, those extra couple ranks in Scythe Mastery level out nicely when compared to the armor penetration a Warrior might gain from Strength (and don't forget about HM). Nerfherder seemed to come to the same conclusion, Warriors and Dervishes are very close.

You asked for a comparison of DPS, the title of the thread even says so. Common sense dictates that the profession with the best critical hit rate is going to win in a head to head comparison. Everything under that comes down to either extra skills you select as optionals or just the class itself being poorly suited to the role. Dervishes are not the worst and the "other people do my job better" argument is a non sequitur.

maxxfury · Nov 07, 2010, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Purely for offense, sin/derv wins...numbers are shown all over

But they loose "SY!" which imo, is a MASSIVE disadvantage..for your team, If you dont need sy cos someone else (1 or 2 ppl) have it covered, then fair enough :P but +100 party armour for me far outweighs the small dps loss

W/D > D/W > A/W > Ra/D for the best overall imo. (SY! is a big factor :P and as noted, power attack puts W primary over here.)

A/D > W/D > D/W > Ra/D for dps..

something to think about no?

NerfHerder · Nov 07, 2010, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

What I want to know is what primary profession can get the highest DPS using a scythe. I want to know this because I believe the Dervish to be the worst PvE class due to other classes being able to do what they were meant to do, better.

Quote:

For those curious, the Dervish update is looking to include some new mechanics for the class to make it more feasible to play – it’s more than just a matter of changing skill numbers around. We’re trying to address issues such as other classes being better with scythes than the Dervish itself, which offers very little incentive to play one as your primary profession.Source

Anet knows about it and is working on that issue. All it would take is an AoHM nerf to everyone but the Derv and maybe a few strategic buffs in mysticism somewhere. And the Dervish is back on top. Just wait till the skill update. You may change your mind about the Dervish being the worst in PvE or with a Scythe. In the mean time, who wants to race my Derv to Droks?

Slasher of Darkness · Nov 07, 2010, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Just did the damage test on my derv, Asuran R10, Luxon R7, no SoH, no outside buffs, no personal cons, 16 scythe. Booze was used as I'm going for booze title.. This is what I usually run in PvE, no hatin' on the Faithful Intervention guys, I don't have anything better to put there... -.- Besides, serves good as a cover enchant for SoH. The damage isn't bad IMO, I've played both, sin and derv for a good amount of time, both are very good classes, derv haters probs sucked with them.

Anyway, here's the pic!

Granamyr · Nov 08, 2010, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Dervishes are not the worst and the "other people do my job better" argument is a non sequitur.

Of course it follows....if you're the worst at your job, then you're the worst class. If the monk was exactly like an elementalist but all of its skills did 5 less damage then there would be no reason to ever make a monk. It would be useless. A Dervish is meant to be AoE Melee focusing on DPS and it does that 3rd best!! What purpose is there for that?

If you had to pick a team, why would you pick the 3rd best option? The Dervish can do nothing "the best" thus making it "the worst" (PvE speaking of course).

Now, I'm not saying it isn't functional or even fun.....I had plenty of fun with mine and got through all of the chapters just fine. But call it what it is.....the class is inferior.

Quote:

Anet knows about it and is working on that issue.

It's not like I even have to make this argument since the devs already have with this rumored update. They know the class is inferior and are trying to fix it. If ain't broke, why would they be having to fix it? Heck, the community has made my point better than I have. Look up and down this forum alone, everyone knows the class is broken.....in the bad way.

reaper with no name · Nov 08, 2010, 05:25 AM // 05:25

I still find it hilarious that people think MoD tests mean anything whatsoever. The MoD does not have enough armor for an accurate test, and even if he did, there would be too much variance in the results for them to mean anything thanks to the RNG. When comparing builds that do the same thing, pure math is the only factor worth a damn, because it is the only way to remove all the unwanted variables and make the result scientific.

I've done that math. In terms of damage, A/D wins, but they don't get SY. Next comes W/D (which does get SY). After them comes the dervish and then comes the R/D. I haven't ever actually done in-depth math for Rt/D, but I'm confident it wouldn't hold a candle up to A/D.

Back of the envelope calculations tell me that a Rt/D with Drunken Master (and constant booze) would have about 70 dps (essentially, the same as a zealous vow dervish with a permanent 33% IAS and no attack skills, since a rit would not be able to spam those). Increase that by 40%, and you get 99 dps for primary targets, which is equal to the warrior (however, keep in mind that the warrior is also using SY; the rit is burning that PvE slot for IAS, so a warrior could easily beat a rit with a scythe if they wanted to).

I'm not gonna bother with the ranger (though I have in the past, I don't think I've ever saved those results). Someone else can do that if they want.

Let me see if I can find some of the calculations I did for the warrior, sin, and dervish.

Here we go:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b42d198/n/The_Math.xls

To answer the OP's question, I have yet to find a dervish build as damaging as the one used in those calculations (and believe me, I've run a LOT of numbers) that does not resort to Frenzy (in which case, it would be the same build but with Frenzy instead of HoF). As it turns out, the IAS adds just a little bit more than Fear Me or another attack skill. Be aware, however, that there's only just enough energy management in this particular version to make the build work (unlike most zealous vow builds that invest wholly into wind prayers and allow you to mess up a lot more without being punished).

Granamyr · Nov 09, 2010, 10:34 PM // 22:34

I love the gurus community. Thanks so much for the data.....this is some impressive nerd work.

reaper with no name · Nov 10, 2010, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Oh, and I just realized something. My back of the envelope calculations for the ritualist are likely slightly better than they should be, because I basically took the result for a dervish with a permanent 33% IAS and used those as the base. Dervishes get scythe runes and rits do not. Not that it matters, of course, because the rit still doesn't get SY or reach what an A/D can put out (making it effectively just as worthless as the dervish in the context of the scythe).

Desert Rose · Nov 14, 2010, 11:37 AM // 11:37

There's also the P/D, and afaik its damage is between Ranger's and Warrior's, on about the same level as D/X.